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Release by end of Q1 2022


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On 1/23/2022 at 7:51 AM, dokken1212 said:

If it's not ready and the team feel it is not ready to release - then I am all for that.

One thing I'd love to see a little more clarification on, is the definition of "To Do". My brain (that over thinks when I put my head to pillow) is on overtime on this one.

As posted previously - it appears as though the following are still outstanding before EA:

  • Flight control system heading, attitude and altitude hold modes
  • MultiCrew,
  • cold start
  • George AI co-pilot gunner
  • certain crew animations
  • system damage effects.

My question is whether or not these systems are basically finished - but the team are not happy with them and as you say "feel it's not ready for release", and thus are tweaking these systems before checking them off...

... or whether they have not yet being designed at all, or whether they are part way through being designed.

6 systems that have been finished, but the team are not happy with and require some tweaking may allow for a Q1 release date still.

However, if the above systems are still being developed and not even in the testing phase yet - it's possible we're a lot further out than indicated. "To-do's" can be read a variety of different ways. The devil seems to be in the detail of what "To-Do" really means. 

I'm obviously disappointed in the delay as well - but like most  I can be understanding about the delay and wanting it right. 

On 1/22/2022 at 10:47 PM, Wychmaster said:

So from the description of Wags Video I got the following remaining TODOs:

Combining this with the information from Casmos video about the current state ("some more time in the oven") I don't think we are looking at 31.03.2022. More like middle or end of February. But this is pure speculation of mine.

I wish I had your optimism. 😉 Without ED clarifying the situation as what "to do" means - I'm left to reevaluate based on variables I know:

What I see at present is that we have had no more training/demo video's on the AH-64 since the TSD navigation over a month ago. There is yet to be video's on various weapon use, George control, etc, (if I go by how the Hind was featured prior to release). Not much to go by - but all I have really. This gives me the gut feeling without any other details that Q1 is unlikely and Q2 is more realistic. I hope I'm wrong - but 2 delays, plus the lack of training video's, and 6 separate items on the to-do list has me thinking 'to do' is more about the need to finish development than it is tweaking already developed systems.

It's all best guess and conjecture. The people who know the best still have been getting dates wrong, so what hope do I have of guessing right with less information. 

Either way - I wish ED all the best with their development and appreciate the work they do. 

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12 minutes ago, Dangerzone said:

One thing I'd love to see a little more clarification on, is the definition of "To Do". My brain (that over thinks when I put my head to pillow) is on overtime on this one.

As posted previously - it appears as though the following are still outstanding before EA:

  • Flight control system heading, attitude and altitude hold modes
  • MultiCrew,
  • cold start
  • George AI co-pilot gunner
  • certain crew animations
  • system damage effects.

My question is whether or not these systems are basically finished - but the team are not happy with them and as you say "feel it's not ready for release", and thus are tweaking these systems before checking them off...

... or whether they have not yet being designed at all, or whether they are part way through being designed.

6 systems that have been finished, but the team are not happy with and require some tweaking may allow for a Q1 release date still.

However, if the above systems are still being developed and not even in the testing phase yet - it's possible we're a lot further out than indicated. "To-do's" can be read a variety of different ways. The devil seems to be in the detail of what "To-Do" really means. 

I'm obviously disappointed in the delay as well - but like most  I can be understanding about the delay and wanting it right. 

I wish I had your optimism. 😉 Without ED clarifying the situation as what "to do" means - I'm left to reevaluate based on variables I know:

What I see at present is that we have had no more training/demo video's on the AH-64 since the TSD navigation over a month ago. There is yet to be video's on various weapon use, George control, etc, (if I go by how the Hind was featured prior to release). Not much to go by - but all I have really. This gives me the gut feeling without any other details that Q1 is unlikely and Q2 is more realistic. I hope I'm wrong - but 2 delays, plus the lack of training video's, and 6 separate items on the to-do list has me thinking 'to do' is more about the need to finish development than it is tweaking already developed systems.

It's all best guess and conjecture. The people who know the best still have been getting dates wrong, so what hope do I have of guessing right with less information. 

Either way - I wish ED all the best with their development and appreciate the work they do. 

All of the 'To Do' items are currently in progress, with several of them almost complete, just to clarify, thanks!

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Im happy to wait for a better Apache release, I have all the helicopters except the Mi28, with the Apache on the way I feel a lot of DCS players this is going to be their first helicopter and foray into a war on the ground, will the Apache bring updates to the ground AI as it is pretty lacking in what they can and cannot do as far as AI routing, dispersal and other stuff, plenty of DCS players are going to see this once they enter the ground war, I know it was mentioned at some point last year but i sure how its on the high priority list ??

Cheers


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15 hours ago, VFGiPJP said:

I use miles to pay for the Apache too. 

I'm in the same boat. I give the benefit of the doubt and trust in the end ED have done the best they can without getting to complicated I guess and shifting resources away from development. Yes - it sucks for steam users. And it also sucks for us who buy direct and still miss out - but it is what it is. I imagine it also sucks for ED too...

.. in that it's disappointing to see the phrase "a good dead never goes unpunished" yet again raising it's head again - this time at ED where a kind gesture giving back to the community inadvertently turned into something sour instead sadly reflecting negatively on them. Life has it's ironies... 

I take solace in hoping that the lost discount will just contribute to further development of the core system and enhancements. I'm not saying it's fair - but just trying to focus on the positives and not get too down. I find myself caring less about getting the miles and rather I'm more concerned though for the damage this 'miles credit' has caused than benefitted ED. From what I gather they're doing a great job in a very difficult time and still manage to move ahead, and for that I'm extremely grateful, and wish them the best of luck. 

 

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45 minutes ago, Dangerzone said:

I take solace in hoping that the lost discount will just contribute to further development of the core system and enhancements. I'm not saying it's fair - but just trying to focus on the positives and not get too down. I find myself caring less about getting the miles and rather I'm more concerned though for the damage this 'miles credit' has caused than benefitted ED. From what I gather they're doing a great job in a very difficult time and still manage to move ahead, and for that I'm extremely grateful, and wish them the best of luck. 

 

 

It didn't cause damage, ED used the miles spent to refund everyone who didn't use theirs. It was a trade. We basically gave our miles to other customers.


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I used miles for the Apache. To be honest I didn't read the bit about extra miles so my fault really. After the delay announcement I contacted for a refund as I will have a major real life change later in the year so no time to learn a new module but was told as per the policy no reimbursement of used miles. For now I will keep the preorder but if it slips beyond March I will just have to take the lost miles hit and get a refund. You live and learn....

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I have to laugh at the amount of self entitled people who seems to not understand the concepts of pre-purchase and early access modules.

There is one simple solution to all of you...

Simply stop buying anything that is not available yet. Simple as that. You can focus on other things, instead of agonizing over any delays that might come up due to whatever factors that come up during testing. They are still tuning the flightmodel of the apache after inputs from the SME's. It's not just features that needs to be completed.

No matter what ED had done it would be complaints.

- No date on STEAM, would mean no ability for any steamuser to do a pre-purchase, and you would have had people complaining about that. Now instead, people are treating the date on Steam as promised release date.

- Release now, and they would have the same problems as with the viper-launch. Instead they are pushing the date, to make the module as feature complete as possible at launch.

- Not said anything after the tease in 2021 and beyond video. Then you would have people complaining about lack of communication about the project. Instead we have had pretty good videos about the progress and status of the project. But now we have people arguing for a "BETA" version until the early access is ready.

So no matter what ED does or had done, there would be people complaining. And usually it's the same type of people.
There's close to 40 other modules to keep us occupied with until this one drops. Relax, and stop spending money on modules that obviously affect your mood and daily life if they get's delayed. 


Damned if you do, damned if you don't.

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16 minutes ago, huchanronaa said:

A tragic delay, it has been delayed twice, and it is not even known when it will be released

We know it is planned for release in Q1 2022.

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Having seen this happen many, many times before with all manner of software products, not just DCS. I appreciate the way ED does this now. The ideal for me is:

  • Give a best estimate of release
  • Announce delays as soon they are determined with a new estimate that is realistic
  • Don't shove something out the door that's not ready just to meet a self imposed deadline

I think that's what ED has done here. So, sure, it's disappointing but, in my opinion, good on them for doing it right.

As an aside, I much prefer ED's current method to the flight sim developer who was famous for saying, "Two weeks." every two weeks for years or the space game that's taken nearly a decade but can't get past a barely playable alpha state with no end in sight.

 

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20 hours ago, Snappy said:

That doesn’t make sense. Even if the key phrase is „estimated“,  by now and given ED‘s entire track record, it should be obvious to everyone, even to ED themselves, that their ability to „estimate“ is abysmal . They are wrong all the time and usually not by small margins. They are simply very bad at giving decent estimates.They constantly overestimate their ability.

They could learn from it , but apparently they don’t.

The simple solution is , make your estimate as usual internally, then add 300-500% /1-1.5 years buffer  and publish the resulting number on the newsletter. Keep publishing said same result every few weeks .

If they finish earlier and have a ready built(but only if both conditions are met) , revise and release.
Everyone is pleasantly surprised about ED making it on time or even earlier and the pitchforks stay in.

What they do now is just a worn-out bad routine. Almost no one believes EDs release estimates for anything anymore and that they keep repeating the same mistakes and then delay further at the last minute  just damages their PR reputation , which isn‘t the greatest to begin with.

regards,

 Snappy

 

I'm sympathetic with the core idea of this.  I've always thought ED needed to create a buffer for the community on anticipated releases.  I remember when the release estimates for the Apache originally came out, I went "Yeah, that's not happening, this module is too complex for this year"  (unfortunately I did start believing them as time went on and they stuck to their release date.)  Under-promise and over-deliver really feels like an approach they should adopt.  I, for one, would never be disappointed with a module that came out earlier than estimated.  I'm sure someone would complain, but I would imagine most wouldn't.  It just seems like good sense to surprise the community with early releases on modules they internally predicted the development time for, and a buffer for those that are a surprise in how long it takes.

 

Having said that, I'm also one of those who gives it a shrug at this point.  I don't think it's worth a whole lot of drama and recriminations.  While I wasn't one of the pitchfork people, the F-16 release taught me that a release of a module that unfinished was worse for the community than a delayed release with more quality control.  So holding off till the Apache is in a more solid early access state is the right move.  And I can see the challenges of COVID being an unanticipated contributor to the problem as well.  Wags' video on the "why" made sense to me.  

 

I'll keep advocating for ED to go with an under-promise/over delivery approach, but if they don't take that up, I'm not going to burn them at the stake for it or demand a refund.  I wish they would adopt that approach for their sake, to reduce their own headaches.  For the old timers, we know the way it works.  It's disappointing but not surprising, and for most, not the end of the world.  For the new timers it's an unpleasant shock.  But either way the Apache's coming, and it'll be the best Apache sim to date.  

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On 1/23/2022 at 12:04 PM, Rogue Trooper said:

The delay video looks fantastic!.... love the hook.

Looking forward to seeing the new pilot models and animations, using Avatar hand movement would be sweet.... even if it is to simply point.  

I am ok with the delay as I need more time for my new graphics card to arrive. 🙂

 

It does look  great but should there be some vibrations ? 

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2 hours ago, evilnate said:

End of calendar Q1 is March 31, so that should be the new expectation. If released earlier, great!

From your mouth to gods ears. I would only hope it's by then. This is a huuge thing for ED. the apache is no joke of an aircraft to simulate. No other sim has been able to replicate this helicopter.  The closest I've gotten was a mod created by someone for aerofly fs2 yet still not even close to what this will be. 

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On 1/23/2022 at 5:44 PM, Raptor9 said:

I suspect ED announces estimated release dates because they realize that it is smart marketing due to the fact that the vast majority of their customer base understand the key word in the phrase is "estimated", and aren't stressed if the release doesn't happen at the stroke of midnight on that release date.  For every person that loses their mind for an announced release date that's been missed, there is at least one other that loses their mind without an up-to-minute release date estimate that is announced every week.

The problem isn't on ED's end, it's people that don't live in the real world; a real world that is beset with unexpected factors and variables that impact even the best laid plans.  Imagine driving to work, getting a flat tire, and showing up late.  Upon arrival, you explain that you had a flat tire, however you are immediately fired for "not anticipating you were going to have a flat tire and left your house earlier to account for the additional time to change to the spare."  That sort of logic would be absurd.

 

I don't mind delays. But really, no one expected it to release in december, or january. And yet they STILL said they would. That is the problem I'm having with this whole thing.

  

7 hours ago, TZeer said:

I have to laugh at the amount of self entitled people who seems to not understand the concepts of pre-purchase and early access modules.

There is one simple solution to all of you...

Simply stop buying anything that is not available yet. Simple as that. You can focus on other things, instead of agonizing over any delays that might come up due to whatever factors that come up during testing. They are still tuning the flightmodel of the apache after inputs from the SME's. It's not just features that needs to be completed.

No matter what ED had done it would be complaints.

- No date on STEAM, would mean no ability for any steamuser to do a pre-purchase, and you would have had people complaining about that. Now instead, people are treating the date on Steam as promised release date.

- Release now, and they would have the same problems as with the viper-launch. Instead they are pushing the date, to make the module as feature complete as possible at launch.

- Not said anything after the tease in 2021 and beyond video. Then you would have people complaining about lack of communication about the project. Instead we have had pretty good videos about the progress and status of the project. But now we have people arguing for a "BETA" version until the early access is ready.

So no matter what ED does or had done, there would be people complaining. And usually it's the same type of people.
There's close to 40 other modules to keep us occupied with until this one drops. Relax, and stop spending money on modules that obviously affect your mood and daily life if they get's delayed. 


Damned if you do, damned if you don't.

Again my issue isn't with the apache development, the apache module, the thing being delayed or even the development team, because I'm sure they do the best they can.

My issue is with the policies and politics of ED and their marketing. Of course I can wait, and again, this was expected. I never once wavered in my belief that the apache would be delayed at least trice. Of course I had the vague hope of it being done this month and I would've liked it very much. But I'm not loosing my sleep over it.

All I ask is reasonable estimates and no PR nonsense. And of course if you're gonna give people <insert name of imaginary money substitute here> as an apology for the delay, then give it to everyone.


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8 hours ago, TZeer said:

Instead they are pushing the date, to make the module as feature complete as possible at launch.

Small caveat to this: we won't be receiving a feature complete module at launch; the delays simply mean the features planned to be working at EA are not ready. So George might currently shoot wildly and jam the winch (100 internet points and a fake portable game player to those who get this reference). Or the transmission blows up when you pull 100.1% on the collective. Or HELLFIRE shoots backwards. That sort of thing.

Just to head off those who might believe that a delay means they could get a working FCR or some such.

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1 hour ago, FalcoGer said:

My issue is with the policies and politics of ED and their marketing. Of course I can wait, and again, this was expected. I never once wavered in my belief that the apache would be delayed at least trice. Of course I had the vague hope of it being done this month and I would've liked it very much. But I'm not loosing my sleep over it.

All I ask is reasonable estimates and no PR nonsense. And of course if you're gonna give people <insert name of imaginary money substitute here> as an apology for the delay, then give it to everyone.

The team needed more time and they got it. 

If you are not happy that EDmiles were given out to everyone who was valid as an apology I'm afraid there isnt a lot we can do. You will just have to accept it and move on, there was no politics or marketing involved, we did what we could do within our system.

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6 minutes ago, NeedzWD40 said:

Small caveat to this: we won't be receiving a feature complete module at launch; the delays simply mean the features planned to be working at EA are not ready. So George might currently shoot wildly and jam the winch (100 internet points and a fake portable game player to those who get this reference). Or the transmission blows up when you pull 100.1% on the collective. Or HELLFIRE shoots backwards. That sort of thing.

Just to head off those who might believe that a delay means they could get a working FCR or some such.

I hope most of the people on this forum know it's not feature complete at launch. I wrote "feature complete as possible" in reference to an early access module, as we all should know by now.

But yeah, I guess it doesn't hurt to point it out, as some like to interpret things in their own way to the extreme.

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