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Any one care to speculate on performance hit?


Digitalvole

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I’m very happy with performance in general at the moment, though I think I’m one patch behind. 
I’d love it to be better of course but it is more than good enough right now for me. I have a pretty good system so that helps.

As for the AH64 my reasons for holding off now are to also see how it is in SP seeing as it is meant for 2.

But also the main problem I have these days is that I can’t commit to one aircraft as there are so many great ones to choose from. It’s a hard life 😉

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Anecdotal evidence: X-plane with Vulkan was silky-smooth in VR, even with my old 1070ti. Now, X-plane isn't quite DCS-level graphics, but it's close. It wasn't designed for VR, or Vulkan for that matter, either, in fact it used OpenGL, or all things, before they went with Vulkan, so modern technology, that isn't. Offloading AI and multiplayer stuff to separate threads should help, too, so there are reasons to be optimistic here. I'm really looking forward to those changes, especially since it involves rewriting the graphics engine, you might as well rewrite it with an eye towards VR.

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10 hours ago, stormrider said:

That's the thing. We're in 2022 and the 2070 or my 1070ti for that matter, are both obsolete and our R5 3600 is a budget entry level, older generation cpu for today's standards. The gaming industry kept moving forward while those of us not sitting on gold mines were left behind in terms of hardware. Don't expect to be able to run smoothly a 2022 non-optimized dcs module with 2018 mid-low hardware.

On my side, I'm buying it, but I don't expect to be able to run it until at least 2023, when I hope to be able to purchase some used hardware on ebay. Vulkan will certainly help, but will it save the day with "inclusivity"? I don't think so.

Everybody who is willing to accept buying the best (and most expensive) available hardware for DCS, should also be willing to demand the best possible (and at the soonest) software optimisation for this hardware from ED.

Those, who focus on the hardware side only, do not incentivise ED to introduce Vulcan or DX12 API with the highest priority and fastest development results. Vulcan 1.0 API has been available since 2016. Nearly six years have passed to renew and finish a new core for DCS, that has already had an ancient graphics engine in those days and earlier.

If the majority of DCS enthusiasts who are probably not "sitting on gold mines" balance DCS's outdated graphics engine again and again by means of new hardware purchases, their approach will lead to both burning money and wasting performance, it will produce opportunity cost. Minimising opportunity cost is a sign of economic rationality.

 

To be a purchaser, or not to be a purchaser, that is the question - at least to which degree or at what price. 🥴

Keeping an eye on the financial developments outside our near and dear Digital Combat World, I am quite sure this question will soon catch up with ED, too.


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10 hours ago, sirrah said:

For anyone new reading all these posts:

 

It's all very much a matter of  user expectations..

I'm flying DCS in VR with my Reverb G1 with, by today's standards, sort of a low end system (gtx1080ti, i7-8700k and 32gb ram) and I'm totally enjoying every session.

Sure, I had to tune down graphics a tad, but I'm still very well capable of reading everything, spot targets and play on heavy MP servers (also in the Hind) with decent fps and without stutters.

No offense meant, but just to put some of the "negative" posts here in perspective.

 

Of course I too wait with great anticipation on what Vulkan and multicore might bring us, but it's unfair to imply that DCS is unplayable at the moment in VR.

 

I’m in the same boat as you, i7-7700 @4.2ghz, gtx 1080Ti, 36gb ram, on a z270 gaming pro Carbon. I only fly helicopters and typically mp, apart from some stuttering when looking left/right out of the window, I find the game very smooth. Don’t ask me what the fps as I don’t know and don’t need to. I think for some, fps becomes such a focused target/demand during play, that it may influence a view point subjected to bias. 

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7 hours ago, BIGNEWY said:

I have a monster 

 

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Oh yeah, sweet rig! I'm pretty close with the only difference having 64GB RAM and a 3080 pushing a Reverb G1. Thanks for sharing

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12 minutes ago, Rabies said:

 I think for some, fps becomes such a focused target/demand during play, that it may influence a view point subjected to bias. 

The some who prefer not to see stutter when looking left or right for instance? 🙂 

Im a 2D-er and Track IR bound. If I cant Vsync my frames to 60 constantly, the game stutter and drops are very distracting since the whole thing flicks between 60 and 30 fps. Without Vsync the jerks and stutters are also distracting unless the fps is around the 120 mark (even though Im only displaying 60 pfs on the screen).

So FPS (or the ability to provide a minimum level thereof) is very important to me. Not the overall highs but the lows percentile. Except for working out if something is wrong, I dont have a counter on and I couldnt care really too much as long as I get the 60 fps. Over time I'll turn down the graphics if the game demands but Ill check every OB patch to see if there is an unexplained perfomance drop simply to report it.   

You can live with a little stutter and enjoy the experience as a whole but that wouldnt be enjoyable for me. Thats all. If that biases my viewpoint  it does so only to the same degree that your ability to live with stutter biases yours. 

 

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8 hours ago, Rabies said:

I’m in the same boat as you, i7-7700 @4.2ghz, gtx 1080Ti, 36gb ram, on a z270 gaming pro Carbon. I only fly helicopters and typically mp, apart from some stuttering when looking left/right out of the window, I find the game very smooth. Don’t ask me what the fps as I don’t know and don’t need to. I think for some, fps becomes such a focused target/demand during play, that it may influence a view point subjected to bias. 

If you don't care about your fps, you're possibly not utilizing all the capacity in your hardware. From an end-user perspective, like it or not, but it's essential that you maximize your performance specially when running older gen hardware. Fps is common unit that allows end-users to compare apples and oranges and make right decisions.

 

11 hours ago, Fastbreak said:

Everybody who is willing to accept buying the best (and most expensive) available hardware for DCS, should also be willing to demand the best possible (and at the soonest) software optimisation for this hardware from ED.

Those, who focus on the hardware side only, do not incentivise ED to introduce Vulcan or DX12 API with the highest priority and fastest development results. Vulcan 1.0 API has been available since 2016. Nearly six years have passed to renew and finish a new core for DCS, that has already had an ancient graphics engine in those days and earlier.

If the majority of DCS enthusiasts who are probably not "sitting on gold mines" balance DCS's outdated graphics engine again and again by means of new hardware purchases, their approach will lead to both burning money and wasting performance, it will produce opportunity cost. Minimising opportunity cost is a sign of economic rationality.

 

To be a purchaser, or not to be a purchaser, that is the question - at least to which degree or at what price. 🥴

Keeping an eye on the financial developments outside our near and dear Digital Combat World, I am quite sure this question will soon catch up with ED, too.

 

Wise words, thank you.

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Banned by cunts.

 

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As I am reading this thread I am starting to notice that the hardware requirements are slowly creeping away from MOST average gamers.

Do I need to be concerned as the base requirements on steam are WAY below my current specs [r7 2700x,3060Ti,32GB] but everyone is worried about performance issues.

And i see talk of 3080's and 3090's which is a bit concerning as I have already pre-ordered the glorious AH64.

image.png

 

So if there is so much chat about the various hardware configs then should ED not start engaging with users about the possibility of very varying possibilities of experiences with the hardware as I see only VERY high end rigs at ED and that concerns me as who is doing the base config QA to see what we can expect at the so called lower end PC owners?

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9 hours ago, ST0RM said:

Oh yeah, sweet rig! I'm pretty close with the only difference having 64GB RAM and a 3080 pushing a Reverb G1. Thanks for sharing

I was to cheap to go to 64GB RAM 🙂

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48 minutes ago, Bedouin said:

Since we will flying a slow moving helo (compared to the jets)... would there could be a performance gain in reducing the Preload radius and perhaps Visib Range...?

Its something I used to do and it does help a little. The big however though is that you really need to stay in the weeds at all times not to see the effect (especially if you are used to higher settings). 

 

47 minutes ago, abs0lutzer0 said:

As I am reading this thread I am starting to notice that the hardware requirements are slowly creeping away from MOST average gamers.

Do I need to be concerned as the base requirements on steam are WAY below my current specs [r7 2700x,3060Ti,32GB] but everyone is worried about performance issues.

And i see talk of 3080's and 3090's which is a bit concerning as I have already pre-ordered the glorious AH64.

So if there is so much chat about the various hardware configs then should ED not start engaging with users about the possibility of very varying possibilities of experiences with the hardware as I see only VERY high end rigs at ED and that concerns me as who is doing the base config QA to see what we can expect at the so called lower end PC owners?

ED will state that they have differing levels of rigs not just high end ones. On an "average" rig, things have to be turned down for certain types of play and for certain modules. The concern here is that the type of play (down low) and the module (hi res duel pit multi MFDs and Rotor annimations) is going to be a very demanding application.

If you can play DCS now, I doubt the Apachie will break it. You may find times where your old settings are asking too much of your rig and you will need to scale back some of the graphic options. The question is by how much. And how much "give" is too much. If you are already dialled back and still on the margins then it may be a problem at least until its optimized further and Multicore/Vulkan (cant we just say MC/V??) comes along. That said MC/V is still a complete unknown.  

If I take the F18 with its screens etc and place it on the ramp I can happily sit there with 100-110 fps. F14 about 85-95 fps. Thats will all the goodies on but on a 1080P 2D screen.  Put the hind there and its 75-80 fps with no mfds to render. I imagine the Apachie may be similar to the Hind in similar situations but may suffer more in operation when the MFDs are displaying targets and it its below or just above the tree line. The difference between say an A10 (which can sometimes show issues with the MFDs displaying images from TPOD and Mav both at once) and the Apachie is that the A10 is normally higher and, as such, is giving the system less of a headache graphically from the get go. The other factor is perhpas that although there may be an MFD in each position, if its showing the same data, the hit may not be as bad as one might fear.

Until it arrives its all speculation.  

 

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44 minutes ago, Boosterdog said:

Its something I used to do and it does help a little. The big however though is that you really need to stay in the weeds at all times not to see the effect (especially if you are used to higher settings). 

 

This got me thinking, would it be possible somehow, DCS bios, modding, or..., to have a dynamic view distance based on the altitude? That would at least partially solve the problem.

Banned by cunts.

 

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4 minutes ago, stormrider said:

This got me thinking, would it be possible somehow, DCS bios, modding, or..., to have a dynamic view distance based on the altitude? That would at least partially solve the problem.

Changing the view distances causes DCS to reboot I think. Map view distances and LODs are all over the place as well. High in the Caususes is like Extreme in Syria whilst a perfectly rendered building in the PG becomes be an amorphous block in Damascus (and dont go rocket a shack for a tower block will spawn in its place! :-))  The game graphically just isnt as good or as optimised for Helo's as it is for jets and props as it stands. Its not awful by any means but popping detail and glitching shadows certainly detract.  But here we are. Cant fly a hip, hind or apachie anywhere else. 


Edited by Boosterdog
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Put DCS on an SSD-disk and set preload radius to minimum. I think putting DCS on an SSD gave me the highest percieved performance boost so far in DCS (and I have upgraded the graphics cards twice and cpu once in my 7-8 years with the sim.) Maybe not in strict FPS numbers, but it eliminated a lot of stutter and temporary freezes that was taking away from the immersion. So if anyone out there still runs DCS from an old mechanical spinning disk drive, buy an SSD. They are a bit cheaper than a new graphics card, and you can´t get the latter anyway due to the current situation being that it is.


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Haha, I have GTX 950...try that if you want to talk about needing better hardware!!!

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37 minutes ago, doedkoett said:

Put DCS on an SSD-disk and set preload radius to minimum. I think putting DCS on an SSD gave me the highest percieved performance boost so far in DCS (and I have upgraded the graphics cards twice and cpu once in my 7-8 years with the sim.) Maybe not in strict FPS numbers, but it eliminated a lot of stutter and temporary freezes that was taking away from the immersion. So if anyone out there still runs DCS from an old mechanical spinning disk drive, buy an SSD. They are a bit cheaper than a new graphics card, and you can´t get the latter anyway due to the current situation being that it is.

 

Its good advice however its not the panacea. Not that you said it was. Im not inferring that. 

I run windows on Sammy 980 pro M2 and DCS on a WD Black M2 using a 4th Gen PCI interface. . Aside from the graphical demands of the module itself, which is the focuss here, the nature of its use will bring it into contact with a lot more AI routines for its targets (at least in SP) and will likely do so in environments where other factors such a destroyed zones, smoke, AI route finding and AI coms are at play. Add to that the increased demand of low level use on a PC and for an older single core application like DCS (currently) its a perfect storm.  If you own the Mi24, play the PG disaster relief mission to observe how a relatively simple mission can stall even a decent PC when AI takes centre stage (i hope it not just me :-)).  

Until Multicore, its implementation and its effects within DCS itself are a known, the true performance of the Apachie, as a full package, will not be a certainty.  I am hopeful as I cant See ED punting out on two attack helos in a short period of time  (3 if you include BS3) without considering this. 


Edited by Boosterdog
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1 hour ago, Boosterdog said:

Its good advice however its not the panacea. Not that you said it was. Im not inferring that. 

Of course the SSD-trick is not the solution for all performance woes or in anyway a better solution than a multi threaded core game. I just meant to tip those who haven´t put their DCS on an SSD yet, that they should. 

As a mission creator I am trying hard to learn what works and what kills the game in terms of performance. In one mission I had a complete armoured battalion with support elements face of against another battalion for some "real simulated" combat, with reinforcements advancing along roads leading to the front line, while we were supposed to fly CAS overhead. Seems like that was a bit too much for most players computers (at the time). So I learned how to replace AI-vehicles with static vehicles to cut down the CPU usage and other short cuts to emulate ground combat in a way that takes less resources.
Another thing to avoid is massive spawning of elements mid game - that will create lagspikes for everyone - with possibly fatal results. Or functions like artillery barrage zones, rocket artillery or massive missile attacks from ships.
DCS being what it is for the time being, we need to find ways to work around it if we want to give ourselves and our fellow pilots a good experience.


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10 minutes ago, doedkoett said:

Of course the SSD-trick is not the solution for all performance woes or in anyway a better solution than a multi threaded core game. I just meant to tip those who haven´t put their DCS on an SSD yet, that they should. 

As a mission creator I am trying hard to learn what works and what kills the game in terms of performance. In one mission I had a complete armoured battalion with support elements face of against another battalion for some "real simulated" combat, with reinforcements advancing along roads leading to the front line, while we were supposed to fly CAS overhead. Seems like that was a bit too much for most players computers (at the time). So I learned how to replace AI-vehicles with static vehicles to cut down the CPU usage and other short cuts to emulate ground combat in a way that takes less resources.
Another thing to avoid is massive spawning of elements mid game - that will create lagspikes for everyone - with possibly fatal results. Or functions like artillery barrage zones, rocket artillery or massive missile attacks from ships.
DCS being what it is for the time being, we need to find ways to work around it if we want to give ourselves and our fellow pilots a good experience.

 

This is true. 

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9 hours ago, abs0lutzer0 said:

As I am reading this thread I am starting to notice that the hardware requirements are slowly creeping away from MOST average gamers.

Do I need to be concerned as the base requirements on steam are WAY below my current specs [r7 2700x,3060Ti,32GB] but everyone is worried about performance issues.

And i see talk of 3080's and 3090's which is a bit concerning as I have already pre-ordered the glorious AH64.

 

So if there is so much chat about the various hardware configs then should ED not start engaging with users about the possibility of very varying possibilities of experiences with the hardware as I see only VERY high end rigs at ED and that concerns me as who is doing the base config QA to see what we can expect at the so called lower end PC owners?

I don't think you need to be concerned. While better optimisation would be nice and would allow some people to run slightly higher settings, the game runs fine now and none of the new maps or aircraft have crippled it. My computer is considerably worse and older than yours, and it's fine. I don't have all settings as high as they'll go, and I don't get 300fps. What I do get is acceptable performance and a pretty game.

I'm certainly not worried.

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2 hours ago, Sabre_Ewan said:

I don't think you need to be concerned. While better optimisation would be nice and would allow some people to run slightly higher settings, the game runs fine now and none of the new maps or aircraft have crippled it. My computer is considerably worse and older than yours, and it's fine. I don't have all settings as high as they'll go, and I don't get 300fps. What I do get is acceptable performance and a pretty game.

I'm certainly not worried.

I drive an old British Mini Cooper in racing green with a white roof. What I do get is acceptable performance and a pretty car.

I'm certainly not worried.

😉

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Also, many of the people who talk about 3080s and the like do it with VR and/or 4K screens in mind. If you're fine with flying on a pancake screen in full HD, then hardware requirements drop significantly. I run a Reverb G2 on a 1080Ti and an otherwise somewhat dated rig (albeit with an M.2 SSD), I had to make some compromises and it doesn't always perform well, but it does most of the time and I'm happy with it. I'm mostly a jet jock so I spend most of my time up high, if I didn't I might have to tone things down a bit (the lower down you are, the worse performance you get), but either way, performance is OK most of the time.

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On 11/29/2021 at 2:43 AM, Lurker said:

This is why I've not pre-ordered the AH64 and have stopped playing DCS World. I don't think my system is a slouch, but in VR things have gotten pretty bad with the recent patches. I could go back to 2d, but it's not the same thing at all, once you go VR you can't really go back to 2d in any kind of sim really. With that said I'm cautiously optimistic, and will probably be getting the Apache once I read some performance reviews of how it flies in VR by the VR buffs who regularly post on these forums. Hopefully by then some more performance fixes will be incoming to DCS World. 

Bro your system should be able too run DCS in VR stutter free no artifacts and clear cockpit.  I do with my O2.

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5 hours ago, Fastbreak said:

I drive an old British Mini Cooper in racing green with a white roof. What I do get is acceptable performance and a pretty car.

I'm certainly not worried.

😉

I wouldn't be worried if I could afford an old Mini either! They cost more than a lot of modern cars. And they're nicer. The analogy doesn't really seem to fit and it spoils the joke somewhat. 

🥺

 

PS. the actual point of my message was that his computer is perfectly adequate for DCS and will be able to run it fine, including in VR, and he shouldn't lose any sleep over it despite some people here talking as if a brand new £4000 computer won't be capable of running DCS at more than 10fps


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11 hours ago, Sabre_Ewan said:

I wouldn't be worried if I could afford an old Mini either! They cost more than a lot of modern cars. And they're nicer. The analogy doesn't really seem to fit and it spoils the joke somewhat. 

🥺

 

PS. the actual point of my message was that his computer is perfectly adequate for DCS and will be able to run it fine, including in VR, and he shouldn't lose any sleep over it despite some people here talking as if a brand new £4000 computer won't be capable of running DCS at more than 10fps

Ok, I see. 😔

I do not need 300 fps to have fun with a simulation, either, but I do expect more than an ancient graphics engine that does not use the latest technology. Of course, at the very beginning there should be a definition which minimum fps rate is rated performant as fun is a very subjective perception. From my perspective 60 fps { mimum level | regular frame times | @ 1080p*/2K/4K resolution | high graphics settings | 2D } should be specified. From a business point of view I understand that the old engine is used as long as possible, but in 2022 with modern APIs, new hardware features, e.g. real-time ray-tracing GPUs, time is ripe for a necessary change to guarantee a 60 fps minimum limit.  

*1080p in my opinion is useless nowadays because you cannot read cockpit instruments properly

Of course, many people ignore fps while they fly, because everything feels smooth most of the time. My experience on the contrary is different. Fluctuating and low fps do not amuse me, rather they spoil the party for me when I pilot in e.g combat zones with input delyays or stutter due to missile launch. You perceive it differently than I do - granted, but I am struggling to comprehend how you have come to the conclusion that you get "accerptable performance". 🤔

Every other aspect of DCS such as graphics, AI, weather, weapon systems etc. pp, of course, does contribute to a realistic and immersive overall picture.
Nevertheless, all  those factors will lose their magic if precise flying is limited by frame rates which are too low or extremely fluctuate and therefore cause input delays while piloting.

Especially FPS and frame times are essential when you are flying a helicopter that is an instable aircraft, and much more important when you fly near to the ground or objects like trees or buildings. And with regard to the very expensive high-end HOTAS that most of the DCS enthusiasts call their own specified frame rates also seem a promising approach.

I would really like to see a categorisation with specified fps minimum limits according to monitor resolution, graphics card, CPU and highest ingame graphics settings (default), 2D use and VR combination. A specification is the most legitimate way to give customers the necessary information to buy ED products without disappointment and upgrade they hardware at optimal cost-performance ratio. It would involve a lot of work for ED, but it could be a reaonable decision long-term, in particular if customers should be bound to change their habitual buying behaviour due to hardware prices that have been raising without end in sight.

Anyway, it is your prerogative to regard things as fine the way they are as long as you feel entertained and have fun with DCS. 🍻

   

 


Edited by Fastbreak

System Components

Power supply: be quiet! Dark Power Pro 11 650W 80Plus Platinum <> Motherboard: Asus Rog Strix X570-E Gaming  <> Processor: Ryzen 5 5600x <> Cooler: DeepCool Gammaxx C40 <> RAM: 2x16GB HyperX Predator 3600Mhz <> SSD: 2x1TB Samsung 980 Pro NVMe M.2 (Raid 0) <> HD: 2TB Seagate BarraCuda <> Graphics card: Asus ROG Strix GTX 1080 Ti 11G Gaming <> Head tracking: TrackIR4 Pro <> dunTrackR <> Monitors: Philips bdm4065uc 40" 4K 3840x2160  (Camera) <> 2x IBM 15" 1024x768 (LMFCD & RMFCD)

Cockpit: self-construction <> Controls: Thrustmaster Hotas Warthog (extension for cyclic & collective control) <> Thrustmaster Rudder Control System <> Sound: Sound Blaster X-Fi Titanium <> Logitech Z-560 THX Sound System

"...Runways are for beauty queens!"

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