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syntetic runway


ivo

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Hi to all,  syntetic runway seem broken, I set the right ils channel and set the app and appars the vertical lines that is ok but when i turn left or right the vertical dissapear when I'm again allinead to runway the vertical line dissapear completely...( always 10 mn from airport)

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2 hours ago, ivo said:

Hi to all,  syntetic runway seem broken, I set the right ils channel and set the app and appars the vertical lines that is ok but when i turn left or right the vertical dissapear when I'm again allinead to runway the vertical line dissapear completely...( always 10 mn from airport)

To get the synthetic centerline, you'll need to be close to the runway heading and be receiving the localiser signal
To get the synthetic runway, you'll need the above plus be receiving the glide slope i.e. ILS glide slope bar is active on the ADI

So if you lose the localiser signal 10 NM from the airfield, the HUD's synthetic centerline will not appear.

Similarly, if you fly a low approach (~2,000ft), the HUD's synthetic runway won't appear until ~6 NM as that is when you'll start to intercept the glide slope

To get the synthetic runway you'll want:
• ILS frequency set and in operation for the runway/direction you are using - check with ATC, audio, ADI, etc. 
• Destination Waypoint [BUT] with RH/DS [CP/PD] set - i.e. runway heading/Desired Glide Slope)
• APP mode selected on the PCA
• altimeter pressure set to QFE (height above airfield AKA Field Elevation)

If you continue to have problems, please share a short track or video

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thanks guys for the answers, however I have been using the mirage since its release and in any case I have not used it for at least 6 months and in the past I have never had any problems.  Now when I start a test mission I know already aligned with the runway to land and the synthetic runway works perfectly, however when I turn left or right and back aligned with the runway it no longer works I have to restart the mission.  I think it's a bug ... the map I use is Syria.  Wondering what are the airports with the ILS bug?

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My wishlist: F-35/B-17G/F4U Corsair/Yak-3/P-40B Tomahawk

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1 hour ago, ivo said:

thanks guys for the answers, however I have been using the mirage since its release and in any case I have not used it for at least 6 months and in the past I have never had any problems.  Now when I start a test mission I know already aligned with the runway to land and the synthetic runway works perfectly, however when I turn left or right and back aligned with the runway it no longer works I have to restart the mission.  I think it's a bug ... the map I use is Syria.  Wondering what are the airports with the ILS bug?

Could you provide us a track so we can try to reproduce the issue ?

Helljumper - M2000C Guru

 

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9 hours ago, ivo said:

here the mission test

Incirlik's ILS and the Mirage's synthetic runway seemed to work fine, the approach and landing was a little awkward as

• you are spawning at 6,500 ft
• ~14 NM from the runway
• have 100% fuel, so are landing at an uprated max landing weight

I flew your mission but unfortunately made plenty of mistakes while using the autopilot (changing to altitude hold, etc. causing it to drop ILS guidance and similar) but the synthetic runway was working once the glide slope was captured.

Hope you'll find it useful (or a least gives you a laugh).


Edited by Ramsay

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21 hours ago, ivo said:

when I turn left or right and back aligned with the runway it no longer works I have to restart the mission.  I think it's a bug ..

TL;DR:

The HUD's closed box/open box localiser guidance did seem to get confused and need APP mode reset if enabled when pointing away from the runway ? I didn't have an issue with the synthetic centerline or runway. I couldn't say if this was a bug as I'd expect pilots to use the HSI (bearing and distance) and ADI ILS bars (LOC and GS) in combination with the HUD's synthetic guidance to line up to capture the localiser

Detail

I did find that after going "missed" and flying a back course to the IAF there was a reflected synthetic runway in the sky in the opposite direction to the *real* runway

Screen_211201_053457.jpg

and the open box that should guide me to the localiser, instead guided me in circles

Screen_211201_053716.jpg

but once I turned APP mode OFF and ON, it behaved as normal but perhaps jumped/changed azimuth guidance when the open box changed to a closed box a little suddenly rather than smoothly i.e. open box would have me flying left and suddenly change to closed box (captured LOC ?) which required a sharp turn right to line up on the runway direction/centerline.

Screen_211201_053622.jpg

I couldn't say if this was a bug as I'd expect pilots to use the HSI (bearing and distance) and ADI ILS bars (LOC and GS) in combination with the HUD's synthetic guidance but the HUD's closed box/open box localiser guidance did seem to get confused and need APP mode reset if enabled when pointing away from the runway ?

I didn't have an issue with the synthetic centerline or runway but perhaps the unusual "runway in the sky" should have been caught like the centerline and not drawn because the aircraft's heading was a long way off that of the runway.


Edited by Ramsay

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8 hours ago, Ramsay said:

Incirlik's ILS and the Mirage's synthetic runway seemed to work fine, the approach and landing was a little awkward as

• you are spawning at 6,500 ft
• ~14 NM from the runway
• have 100% fuel, so are landing at an uprated max landing weight

I flew your mission but unfortunately made plenty of mistakes while using the autopilot (changing to altitude hold, etc. causing it to drop ILS guidance and similar) but the synthetic runway was working once the glide slope was captured.

Hope you'll find it useful (or a least gives you a laugh).

 

8 hours ago, Ramsay said:

 

thanks for the video and the dedicated time however the first time you intercept the runway this works well when instead of landing you turn 180 degrees left and then try to land it no longer shows the syntetic track, however tonight I try again, thanks for everything.

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My wishlist: F-35/B-17G/F4U Corsair/Yak-3/P-40B Tomahawk

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1 hour ago, ivo said:

thanks for the video and the dedicated time however the first time you intercept the runway this works well when instead of landing you turn 180 degrees left and then try to land it no longer shows the syntetic track, however tonight I try again, thanks for everything.

I did go back and fly your mission.

https://forums.eagle.ru/topic/287989-syntetic-runway/?do=findComment&comment=4837100

Over flew the airfield "going missed" [Approach], turned to 230°M and flew past the IAF and flew circles and figure eights both sides of the runway centerline.

M2K Incirlik ILS Synthetic runway testing, 2_7_8_16140.JPG

Activating APP mode did cause issues when facing away from the runway, with the "open box" HUD guidance steering me away from the localiser at times (not always). This was somewhat similar to the old behaviour of the "upside down house" when flying away from a waypoint, which steered you away from the waypoint (since fixed), so may be a bug but could also be due to flying a back course.

It's likely that the Mirage system expects/requires the pilot to approach the centerline intercept at a reasonable angle (45°) and not be flying away.

Using the HSI and ADI to steer myself back towards the runway, the synthetic centerline/runway always appeared provided the LOC/GS was captured and I was facing the runway i.e. my lateral deviation was less than 7º.


Edited by Ramsay

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Thank a lot Ramsay my english is not as good as my pilot skills skill 🤣 🤣 🤣

bye

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On 12/1/2021 at 7:57 AM, Ramsay said:

Incirlik's ILS and the Mirage's synthetic runway seemed to work fine, the approach and landing was a little awkward as

• you are spawning at 6,500 ft
• ~14 NM from the runway
• have 100% fuel, so are landing at an uprated max landing weight

I flew your mission but unfortunately made plenty of mistakes while using the autopilot (changing to altitude hold, etc. causing it to drop ILS guidance and similar) but the synthetic runway was working once the glide slope was captured.

Hope you'll find it useful (or a least gives you a laugh).

 

 

Hi, that's true dedication to help others 👍

Just some data to improve your skills:
- normal maximum landing weight is 11 000kg. Since the plane doesn't have any weapons load in your video and the empty weight is about 7500kg, even with maximum internal fuel you are below maximum landing weight. Above 11 000kg, you are just required to flare gently 😉
- standard aviation practice is to capture LOC first (open box on Mirage), then GLIDE (so no problem in the video) and capture GLIDE from below. It's even more important to do so when using auto pilot to capture the ILS. It isn't really a concern in DCS but IRL the system may fail, and usually at the worst time when you really need it 😅
So if you are descending, and the auto pilot fails to capture the GLIDE, it will stay in descent and if the pilot is distracted by radio coms other work load, he may crash.
If you are capturing the auto pilot by flying level below the GLIDE path, the plane will initiate the descent at the good moment, which is more noticeable than reducing the descent rate by capturing from above.
Also, if the auto pilot fails to capture the GLIDE, you just continue to fly straight and level 😉

Overall, you didn't help the system by randomly switching it ON and OFF.
At 7:18 you had ILS captured, you could have let it ON and it would have nailed the approach for for you.

On short final, you can use "Magic Slave/ AG designate" to toggle OFF (and back ON if needed) ILS symbology.

Finally, I think that this file should help anybody to set up ILS approach from the cockpit. Let me know if you find inconsistant data.

Cheers 🥂 


M-2000C ILS data for PCN input (digitalcombatsimulator.com)

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2 hours ago, jojo said:

- normal maximum landing weight is 11 000kg. Since the plane doesn't have any weapons load in your video and the empty weight is about 7500kg, even with maximum internal fuel you are below maximum landing weight. Above 11 000kg, you are just required to flare gently

Interesting, this differs from the previous 2017 thread

... and the description of MLW and allowable fuel quantities for Normal and Uprated MLW's in Razbam's Previous and RC6 Manuals - Aircraft Procedures pages 584-585

M2K Max landing weight and fuel.png  

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3 hours ago, jojo said:

Overall, you didn't help the system by randomly switching it ON and OFF.
At 7:18 you had ILS captured, you could have let it ON and it would have nailed the approach for for you.

Yeah, I could see/diagnose my errors* when watching the video and although a little embarrassed, the video wasn't a tutorial and they served to show that, despite my mistakes, the synthetic runway was working.

* I've been spending a lot of time using *another* sim's G1000, so was caught out by Razbam's M-2000C auto-pilot pre-emptively starting it's descent before the ADI GS bar was centered, so reselected ALT mode (more than once) which cancelled LOC/GS capture. That's not to say the proportional LOC/GS capture was wrong (I'd already noted it for LOC capture), I just had expected it to be tighter/faster to capture the GS from below and is likely just another change to adapt to.

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10 hours ago, Ramsay said:

Yeah, I could see/diagnose my errors* when watching the video and although a little embarrassed, the video wasn't a tutorial and they served to show that, despite my mistakes, the synthetic runway was working.

* I've been spending a lot of time using *another* sim's G1000, so was caught out by Razbam's M-2000C auto-pilot pre-emptively starting it's descent before the ADI GS bar was centered, so reselected ALT mode (more than once) which cancelled LOC/GS capture. That's not to say the proportional LOC/GS capture was wrong (I'd already noted it for LOC capture), I just had expected it to be tighter/faster to capture the GS from below and is likely just another change to adapt to.

You can selectively unselect LOC or GLIDE by using hat trim.
For instance, if you use pitch trim, the AP will continue to follow LOC, and you will handle vertical flight path through pitch trim on you own.
You can also do the opposite.

But then you need to totally disable L|G before engaging it again for full capture 😉

Mirage fanatic !

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