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Erhöhte Notleistung  

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  1. 1. Should Erhöhte Notleistung be implemented?

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Hi all I have seen time and time again the request for more boost and various systems for achieving higher ata on the Focke-Wulf 190 A8. Now I have also seen some confusion surrounding these systems leading to some threads being closed and tagged with a "should come with a future variant." My hope is to sort out some of that confusion and maybe get the proper system modelled within DCS.

System number 1: MW50. This is the same standard 50:50 mix of methanol and water that most late war German fighters see. I won't get further into detail as this method was tried, passed over and later gone back to due to a fuel shortage but was not the first pick for the 190 due to a small rise in cylinder head cracks. 

System number 2: C3 Injection. This method took extra fuel and injected it directly into the supercharger which was able to increase the ata to 1.58 in the low supercharger gear and 1.65 in the high gear at altitudes under 1000m (3281ft). This method was designed and used on variants used as fighter bombers such as the F8/G8. Thus this system may be a viable option for those aircraft when they are released but not for our current fighter variant. (Page 82 of the Haynes Focke-Wulf Fw190 1939 onwards (all marks) owner's workshop manual) 

System number 3: Erhöhte Notleistung. This method is by far the most relevant to the current model of Anton we have. During 1944 this method was developed and "controlled by inserting a pilot-operated stop cock in the pressure line of the boost regulator, with the effect of overriding the supercharger boost pressure regulator to allow a short-term boost of supercharger power."  (Page 82 Haynes...) Now this system is further outlined in the Official FW190 A8 handbook linked below. Part 6 of the handbook outlines the C3 injection system and then talks about the Erhöhte Notleistung stating: "A newer method of increasing the emergency speed of the fighter has been to insert a pilot operated stop cock... When this system is incorporated supplementary fuel injection is no longer necessary and is, therefore, omitted." This clearly states they are two separate systems one being favored over the other. In Part 7 section C. this new "Emergency Power System" is outlined. "The increased power is gained by bleeding air from the supercharger pressure line (6,1), in which are located two nozzles connected in series. A flexible tube (6,2), through which a portion of the boost air can be drawn off off when the valve (6,3), is opened, is connected into the supercharger air line between the fuel mixture chamber and the boost pressure regulator. The two nozzles, the first of which has a smaller inside diameter, are so constructed that when the actuation valve (6,3) is opened, the air pressure within the boost pressure drops to a very low level; this causes the throttle valve to open wide, thereby increasing the maximum obtainable boost pressure, at 2700 RPM, from 1,42 ata, to 1,58 ata at the low supercharger setting, and to 1,65 ata at the high supercharger setting. The higher boost pressure results in in increased fuel consumption, due to the greater quantity of fuel injected into the cylinders." Now unlike the the C3 injection system this does not have an altitude restriction as it is not injecting fuel directly into the supercharger and enrichening the mixture without proper accounting for the fuel to air ratio. This system does have increased fuel consumption as the mixture is increased appropriately through injection into the cylinders to account for the increase in air consumption as well with the higher boost pressures. This system is simply overriding the boost pressure regulator and "tricking" the throttle valve to open to its fullest extent. ONE LAST TIME this is not a C3 injection system, it does not directly inject fuel into the supercharger, it does however manipulate boost pressures and "trick" the throttle into opening wider.

Screenshot (8).png

(This is the figure from the Official A8 handbook note its lack of injection into the supercharger and the lack of fuel lines in general. It is only manipulating boost pressures.)

Lastly it is noted in the Haynes publication on page 83 that "in early 1945 orders were given that limited time emergency power for fighter variants (A series) could be achieved by a simple manifold pressure boost to 1.8ata, giving the equivalent power boost to around 2,400ps." (2,367hp). I am not arguing for the inclusion of this as it doesn't make clear if this was a result of MW50 or the Erhöhte Notleistung system, it makes it sound like the Erhöhte Notleistung is the system used but I have no backing evidence and that seems to be unrealistic as I can find performance charts with 1.58ata and 1.65ata but not 1.8. Interesting to note though.

Links:

Official Focke Wulf 190 A8 handbook (english translation) http://lexpev.nl/downloads/fw190a8.pdf

Unfortunately I am unable to find a PDF of the Haynes publication but here is a picture of the cover so you may find the proper book if you wish to purchase it like I did. (ISBN: 978 0 85733 789 4) This publication sites the original manual many times but keeps a ton of information all in one place

Screenshot (9).png

Notes: I did go back through to try to eliminate repeating information. I apologize for the length but I wanted to draw the distinct difference between the systems as I have seen them be confused one for the other. The A8 is a true passion of mine and I only wish to see it modeled to its accurate capabilities and not continue to see it be put down as these systems are incorrectly assumed to be the same. If anyone has any questions or further information please ask I will be paying attention to this thread. Some have already pointed to this system but I have not seen anyone explain how the system works or what it is simply that it is. My hope is this clarifies the matter.


Edited by ButcherBiird
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  • 4 weeks later...

+1 just for historical correctness!

"Focke-Wulf's Technical description No. 284 Fw 190 A-8 Fighter from 30 November 1944 notes the following:
Increased emergency power: Starting from July 1944 all Fw 190 A-8 aircraft will be equipped with "increased emergency". By overridding the supercharger boost regulator, boost pressures are increased at take-off and emergency power in low supercharger setting from 1,42 ata to 1,58 ata and at the high supercharger setting from 1,42 to 1,65 ata. Thus an increase of speed up to 13.6 mph (22 km/h) is obtained with low supercharger operation and up to 15.5 mph (25 km/h) with high supercharger operation. The maximum operating time for increased emergency is limited to 10 minutes due to thermal reasons. (Ab Juli 1944 werden sämtliche Flugzeuge der Baureihe Fw 190 A-8 mit "erhöhter Notleistung" ausgerüstet. Durch Eingriff in den Ladedruckregler wird der Ladedruck der Start- und Notleistung im Bodenladerbetrieb von 1,42 ata auf 1,58 ata, im Höhenladerbetrieb von 1,42 ata auf 1,65 ata heraufgesetzt. Hierdurch wird ein Geschwindigkeitsgewinn bis 22 km/h bei Bodenladerbetrieb und bis zu 25 km/h im Höhenladerbetrieb erzielt.; (sich Flugleistungen Bl. 15). Die höchstzulässige Betriebsdauer für erhöhte Notleistung ist aus thermischen Gründen 10 Minuten begrenzt.)

The following units began to convert to the Fw 190 A-8 in April 1944: I./JG 1, II./JG1, I./JG2, III./JG2, I./JG11, III./JG 11, I./JG 26, II./JG26, I./JG 300." (http://www.wwiiaircraftperformance.org/fw190/fw190a8.html)

Already operational aircraft have been reequipped with this system more than likely since the modification was really minor and the need for it was desperate.

td284.pdf


Edited by B4ron
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+1 1.58/1.65 ATA that would make Anton very interesting plane!

Shame that there is not a single comment from ED about this, so this thing is unknown, it could be that it won't be implemented at all.


Edited by grafspee
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The Anton will never get any increased boost. And ED will not take position on this.

The request for 100/150 octane fuel came up soon after the P-51 release in 2012, but even in 2021, ED released the Mossie as a pure 100/130 octane version. That tells a bit about the topic of increased engine power.

 

 

sidenote to c3-injection

Spoiler
On 11/30/2021 at 7:57 PM, ButcherBiird said:

System number 2: C3 Injection. This method took extra fuel and injected it directly into the supercharger which was able to increase the ata to 1.58 in the low supercharger gear and 1.65 in the high gear at altitudes under 1000m (3281ft). This method was designed and used on variants used as fighter bombers such as the F8/G8. Thus this system may be a viable option for those aircraft when they are released but not for our current fighter variant. (Page 82 of the Haynes Focke-Wulf Fw190 1939 onwards (all marks) owner's workshop manual) 

 

The additional C3 injection was forbidden in high gear. It was 1.65ATA in low gear up to 1000m.

1.65 ATA in low gear required more fuel(so that the mixture doesn't get too lean) than the fuel pump could deliver, hence the necessity for additional fuel injection into the (left) air-intake.

Spoiler

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4 hours ago, iFoxRomeo said:

The Anton will never get any increased boost. And ED will not take position on this.

The request for 100/150 octane fuel came up soon after the P-51 release in 2012, but even in 2021, ED released the Mossie as a pure 100/130 octane version. That tells a bit about the topic of increased engine power.

We must remain hopeful on the subject. I talked to NineLine on the discord asking him to read this and acknowledge it etc. a while back and he told me he had read it and passed it on to higher ups. So while not a promise of anything it is much more promising than the usual "will come with a later variant" etc.

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I understand that ED cannot give us everything we want, but as a minimum we as their customers can expect some transparency. Glasnost pozhalsta!

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Are there any test charts from the period showing how performance was affected by the boost change (speed and climbrate vs altitude charts)? Detailed enough for reference purposes I mean (with at least weight and loadout configuration). This is the very first thing needed for any FM change and thus we should start with answering this question.

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On 1/12/2022 at 5:27 PM, Art-J said:

Are there any test charts from the period showing how performance was affected by the boost change (speed and climbrate vs altitude charts)? Detailed enough for reference purposes I mean (with at least weight and loadout configuration). This is the very first thing needed for any FM change and thus we should start with answering this question.

There is a historic report exactly with this topic:

http://www.wwiiaircraftperformance.org/fw190/fw190-A-8-boost-15-03-44.html

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On 1/15/2022 at 2:51 PM, B4ron said:

There is a historic report exactly with this topic:

http://www.wwiiaircraftperformance.org/fw190/fw190-A-8-boost-15-03-44.html

This is an amazing find. Shows that the Germans were probably modifying the A8 to have the boost from March on. The official manual I linked above shows that it became standard and expected practice in July so no reason at all we should not have it in the simulation. I love the Anton, it's my favorite of all time but lets be honest, even with this boost it will still be out matched by everything else it will only be more realistic and more fun to fly so what's the drawback?


Edited by ButcherBiird
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23 minutes ago, ButcherBiird said:

This is an amazing find. Shows that the Germans were probably modifying the A8 to have the boost from March on. The official manual I linked above shows that it became standard and expected practice in July so no reason at all we should not have it in the simulation. I love the Anton, it's my favorite of all time but lets be honest, even with this boost it will still be out matched by everything else it will only be more realistic and more fun to fly so what's the drawback?

 

If I can give you and advice, dont place your hopes too high, WW2 seems to not be ED's highest priority (which is logical if it brings less money), you can enjoy the state of the plane as it is now or move on finding something else. I lost hope in DCS WW2, everything is very very slow, I waited, waited and waited, after nearly 2 years this plane is still bugged, even with last update which was good for the graphical bugs, but with this speed, it will be resolved by the year 2025. My last hope is for the potential F-8/G-8 which can bring an update for the A-8, maybe.

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Nick said they will invest horse power into finally finishing A8 after they are done with working on the Mossie. I still have some hope, but yes, progress is REALLY slow unfortunately.

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Kein Anderer als ein Jäger spürt,

Den Kampf und Sieg so konzentriert.

 

Das macht uns glücklich, stolz und froh,

Der Jägerei ein Horrido!

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Nick said they will invest horse power into finally finishing A8 after they are done with working on the Mossie. I still have some hope, but yes, progress is REALLY slow unfortunately.
Sounds a bit backwards to be honest, but OK.
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On 1/17/2022 at 7:15 PM, MrExplosion said:

Nick said they will invest horse power into finally finishing A8 after they are done with working on the Mossie. I still have some hope, but yes, progress is REALLY slow unfortunately.

Before the release of the Mosquito I asked in discord about bug fixing and they said that they would look for bugs after release of mosquito early acess, they fixed some of them but there are more that need to be fixed and things to be completed, we have the "radio wip" label after nearly 2 years of of EA, now we need to wait until mosquito will be out of EA?

https://stormofwar.info/fw190a8bugs.php

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