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Airspeed? Where the AI is going, we don't need airspeed!


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Maybe this should be merged with other AI threads, but i couldn't really find one that addresses this issue exactly. It is related with the recent under the hood changes in AI behavior. I've noticed that in some training missions, at times the AI will abandon its long standing tactics of vertical loops and instead try to go pure vertical, stall you out and then do a hammerhead on you.......which is great! 

What isn't so great though, is that it seems the AI never stalls out or departs for that matter. Namely i can go along with an F-16 hanging on its tail at 50 knots and not falling out of the sky, after all, it does have a T/W ratio greater then one at some altitudes. What i find puzzling is how is that plane perfectly controllable with so little 'wind' over its aerodynamic surfaces 🤔. So i did make several tests and i could see that thing make controlled over the top maneuvers with as little as 30-something knots....

Here's a snapshot of the lowest i've seen yet. It appears that there is no limit as to how low the AI wants to get. It will get as low as possible until it is you that has departed or stalled out. Anyone else noticed this as well? Is this working as intended? Or is it WIP? 

Cheers everyone!  

Screen_211119_043533.png

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Modules: FC3, Mirage 2000C, Harrier AV-8B NA, F-5, AJS-37 Viggen, F-14B, F-14A, Combined Arms, F/A-18C, F-16C, MiG-19P, F-86, MiG-15, FW-190A, Spitfire Mk IX, UH-1 Huey, Su-25, P-51PD, Caucasus map, Nevada map, Persian Gulf map, Marianas map, Syria Map, Super Carrier, Sinai map, Mosquito, P-51, AH-64 Apache

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It’s working as intended…until they fix it. The issue is that the AI does not use the same flight model that we humans use. It’s extremely simplified and, well, odd.

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12 minutes ago, Ironhand said:

It’s working as intended…until they fix it. The issue is that the AI does not use the same flight model that we humans use. It’s extremely simplified and, well, odd.

Yeah, i know, pure lookup tables. I just never noticed behavior this extreme before. Gives a whole new meaning to the term UFO 🤭🛸

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Modules: FC3, Mirage 2000C, Harrier AV-8B NA, F-5, AJS-37 Viggen, F-14B, F-14A, Combined Arms, F/A-18C, F-16C, MiG-19P, F-86, MiG-15, FW-190A, Spitfire Mk IX, UH-1 Huey, Su-25, P-51PD, Caucasus map, Nevada map, Persian Gulf map, Marianas map, Syria Map, Super Carrier, Sinai map, Mosquito, P-51, AH-64 Apache

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I was watching AI do that in 109s and 190s a couple of days ago.  My assumption is that their engines are also immune to overheating.

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Good to see i'm not the only one. I have no issue with them going vertical, my issue is with them not being pure ballistic at sub stall speeds.....unless they were updated with maneuvering thrusters 🤭

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Modules: FC3, Mirage 2000C, Harrier AV-8B NA, F-5, AJS-37 Viggen, F-14B, F-14A, Combined Arms, F/A-18C, F-16C, MiG-19P, F-86, MiG-15, FW-190A, Spitfire Mk IX, UH-1 Huey, Su-25, P-51PD, Caucasus map, Nevada map, Persian Gulf map, Marianas map, Syria Map, Super Carrier, Sinai map, Mosquito, P-51, AH-64 Apache

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Yeah, I've been seeing this incredibly annoying behaviour with a lot of AI dogfights recently.

And it seems quite silly that in similar aircraft, the AI seems perfectly controllable, when for a player aircraft they'd be departing from controlled flight, especially for aircraft that don't have any kind of flight control system or even stability augmentation.


Edited by Northstar98
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22 hours ago, captain_dalan said:

Yeah, i know, pure lookup tables. I just never noticed behavior this extreme before. Gives a whole new meaning to the term UFO 🤭🛸

Lookup tables as basis for FM  are better than their image.Even commercial level D simulators use them.

But they are only as good as the data they contain and there seem to be serious flaws in the data for the AI FM.

Simplification would be one thing, with less data points across a range and extra/interpolation ,but looking at the way the AI flies there really seems to be wrong data in it, making them pull stuff they physically can’t.


Edited by Snappy
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Yeah, if you check the MiG-17 video that's been released some time ago, its devs shown a really amazing AI FM that really did behave like a real jet. It gave the Tomcat a bit of a hard time, but at the same time didn't do anything grossly unphysical. Although, the devs admitted in the comments it took quite a bit of fiddling to get it to act right. This implies it's not the principle of it that's a problem, but rather the implementation.

At the very least, the flyable aircraft should have their AI FMs fixed, and the non-flyable variants of flyable ones should get the fixed FM copypasted in (it won't be 100% correct, but close enough). The underlying framework probably does have some bugs, but if the MiG-17 could be made to work with in it, the others probably can, too. 

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On 12/2/2021 at 11:04 PM, Snappy said:

Lookup tables as basis for FM  are better than their image.Even commercial level D simulators use them.

But they are only as good as the data they contain and there seem to be serious flaws in the data for the AI FM.

Simplification would be one thing, with less data points across a range and extra/interpolation ,but looking at the way the AI flies there really seems to be wrong data in it, making them pull stuff they physically can’t.

 

I've been using them as well, back in the day when i was writing some flight models. And yeah, we usually didn't let planes fly pass their stall speeds. 
The good thing is, the latest newsletter from ED mentions the ne FM treatment for AI's. And it looks great. I have high hopes. 

Modules: FC3, Mirage 2000C, Harrier AV-8B NA, F-5, AJS-37 Viggen, F-14B, F-14A, Combined Arms, F/A-18C, F-16C, MiG-19P, F-86, MiG-15, FW-190A, Spitfire Mk IX, UH-1 Huey, Su-25, P-51PD, Caucasus map, Nevada map, Persian Gulf map, Marianas map, Syria Map, Super Carrier, Sinai map, Mosquito, P-51, AH-64 Apache

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1 hour ago, captain_dalan said:

I've been using them as well, back in the day when i was writing some flight models. And yeah, we usually didn't let planes fly pass their stall speeds. 
The good thing is, the latest newsletter from ED mentions the ne FM treatment for AI's. And it looks great. I have high hopes. 

Yes, I read it too, although I found their statement in it about the currently used AI SFM a bit bold , let me quote:

Although SFM produces accurate trajectory parameters such as turn rate, specific excess power, flight envelope..”

yea right..

Let’s hope the new model is significantly more accurate.

 


Edited by Snappy
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6 hours ago, Snappy said:

Yes, I read it too, although I found their statement in it about the currently used AI SFM a bit bold , let me quote:

Although SFM produces accurate trajectory parameters such as turn rate, specific excess power, flight envelope..”

yea right..

Let’s hope the new model is significantly more accurate.

 

 

Aye, you got that right 😕 

Modules: FC3, Mirage 2000C, Harrier AV-8B NA, F-5, AJS-37 Viggen, F-14B, F-14A, Combined Arms, F/A-18C, F-16C, MiG-19P, F-86, MiG-15, FW-190A, Spitfire Mk IX, UH-1 Huey, Su-25, P-51PD, Caucasus map, Nevada map, Persian Gulf map, Marianas map, Syria Map, Super Carrier, Sinai map, Mosquito, P-51, AH-64 Apache

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On 12/5/2021 at 2:03 PM, Sonoda Umi said:

lol! Do you think it is possible to beat those AI Aircraft? I wanna say: in current version, NO! 

I mean, i won that fight i took the screenshot of. It is doable, because it's an AI, and knowing it can and will go vertical like that, you can account for it, and keep a 100 knots or so in reserve, so you just shot him to hell on his way up. But that's meta gaming at its worse. No jet we have in DCS should fly at 30 knots. I know some may have the thrust to just stand on their tail like that, but there just isn't any airspeed over the control surfaces to matter. You are indeed ballistic at that point 🙂 

Modules: FC3, Mirage 2000C, Harrier AV-8B NA, F-5, AJS-37 Viggen, F-14B, F-14A, Combined Arms, F/A-18C, F-16C, MiG-19P, F-86, MiG-15, FW-190A, Spitfire Mk IX, UH-1 Huey, Su-25, P-51PD, Caucasus map, Nevada map, Persian Gulf map, Marianas map, Syria Map, Super Carrier, Sinai map, Mosquito, P-51, AH-64 Apache

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I've seen the same happened MANY times recently.. AI SU27 flies to almost 50000 Feet to avoid getting caught. It must have some kind of rocket engine attached to it since it can just climb from 300 knots sea level all the way up to the stratosphere...

The AI should be bloody good and a tough fight but it shouldn't cheat.

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I'm ok with the AI trying new tactics as long as it doesn't break the (known) laws of physics 😄

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Modules: FC3, Mirage 2000C, Harrier AV-8B NA, F-5, AJS-37 Viggen, F-14B, F-14A, Combined Arms, F/A-18C, F-16C, MiG-19P, F-86, MiG-15, FW-190A, Spitfire Mk IX, UH-1 Huey, Su-25, P-51PD, Caucasus map, Nevada map, Persian Gulf map, Marianas map, Syria Map, Super Carrier, Sinai map, Mosquito, P-51, AH-64 Apache

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1 hour ago, captain_dalan said:

I'm ok with the AI trying new tactics as long as it doesn't break the (known) laws of physics 😄

No kidding.  They have been aggressively reckless too.  There are several times when in the merge they rammed right into me at high closure!

v6,

boNes

"Also, I would prefer a back seater over the extra gas any day. I would have 80 pounds of flesh to eat and a pair of glasses to start a fire." --F/A-18 Hornet pilot

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On 12/10/2021 at 11:49 PM, bonesvf103 said:

No kidding.  They have been aggressively reckless too.  There are several times when in the merge they rammed right into me at high closure!

v6,

boNes

Haven't experienced that yet....for better or worse! 😳
But i did some practice BFM sessions against the AI this Friday night before going MP (mostly against Vipers and Fulcrums), and in one of those, a veteran AI MiG-29 actually tried to force an overshoot and then proceeded to engage in a one circle with me! ONE CIRCLE! I have never seen an AI engage in one circle of its own volition. Is it possible that ED has slipped some silent AI updates under the hood? 

Modules: FC3, Mirage 2000C, Harrier AV-8B NA, F-5, AJS-37 Viggen, F-14B, F-14A, Combined Arms, F/A-18C, F-16C, MiG-19P, F-86, MiG-15, FW-190A, Spitfire Mk IX, UH-1 Huey, Su-25, P-51PD, Caucasus map, Nevada map, Persian Gulf map, Marianas map, Syria Map, Super Carrier, Sinai map, Mosquito, P-51, AH-64 Apache

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  • 2 weeks later...

Yesterday I was flying against an F-16 in an Instant Action mission and it clearly states in the briefing, "Gentleman's rules:  no firing until after the merge."  Lo and behold, just before the merge, the F-16 fires at me and gets the kill.

Like I said, they have become more aggressive.

v6,

boNes

"Also, I would prefer a back seater over the extra gas any day. I would have 80 pounds of flesh to eat and a pair of glasses to start a fire." --F/A-18 Hornet pilot

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On 12/12/2021 at 4:17 PM, b0bl00i said:

I would be amazed it it learned and remembered. 

I would actually prefer if it didn't! 
I mean, if it did, then sooner or later it would reach its theoretical maximum and then we'd end up with flying the same AI again and again. I prefer diversity. 

4 hours ago, NineLine said:

Please supply tracks guys, we need tracks. Thanks.

I will try to save a track the next time i do the training BFM missions. The above snapshot was taken from an F-14 flight, so that is broken by default, i doubt it will be of any use. Unless you can use the tackview file? 

Modules: FC3, Mirage 2000C, Harrier AV-8B NA, F-5, AJS-37 Viggen, F-14B, F-14A, Combined Arms, F/A-18C, F-16C, MiG-19P, F-86, MiG-15, FW-190A, Spitfire Mk IX, UH-1 Huey, Su-25, P-51PD, Caucasus map, Nevada map, Persian Gulf map, Marianas map, Syria Map, Super Carrier, Sinai map, Mosquito, P-51, AH-64 Apache

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@NineLine

track attached. Not sure it makes sense, since I thought AI behaves differently in each replay. But anyway :

Player Mirage vs F16 AI on veteran. In this case the AI didnt do the vertical zoom, but the track (or at least in my original fight) shows the two other issues:

1.) its just droning around in circles , only alternating between horizontal and vertical circles . It does nothing else and even this 2 circle fight it does not do well, the F-16 should easily outrate the Mirage if it was flown well.

2.) The other issue you can see it simply doesn't react at all to being shot at. I fired several times in the fight, on purpose not killing it, but close. 
It still doesnt jink, change plane of motion or do any evasive tactic. It just keeps going on the same flight path it was on before, which is just stupid.

 

I attached the mission as well in case you need it for the track to work.

Regards,
Snappy

F-16veteran.trk M2000HAF16C.miz


Edited by Snappy
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Ballistic F-16.trkTacview-20211225-223911-DCS-F-14A NTTR_Dogfight_F-16C NO PYLONS 70 percent fuel both.zip.acmi 
Here is my track and the corresponding Tackview. I don't know if it'll work as it's a Tomcat track. This time around the AI Viper only went down to 90 or so knots CAS. Still perfectly controlable over the top. If memory serves, he did this twice, the second time, did cost him his life.  

Modules: FC3, Mirage 2000C, Harrier AV-8B NA, F-5, AJS-37 Viggen, F-14B, F-14A, Combined Arms, F/A-18C, F-16C, MiG-19P, F-86, MiG-15, FW-190A, Spitfire Mk IX, UH-1 Huey, Su-25, P-51PD, Caucasus map, Nevada map, Persian Gulf map, Marianas map, Syria Map, Super Carrier, Sinai map, Mosquito, P-51, AH-64 Apache

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  • 3 weeks later...

Sorry for bumping this, but it has been marked as missing tracks, though tracks have been provided on two occasions. 

Modules: FC3, Mirage 2000C, Harrier AV-8B NA, F-5, AJS-37 Viggen, F-14B, F-14A, Combined Arms, F/A-18C, F-16C, MiG-19P, F-86, MiG-15, FW-190A, Spitfire Mk IX, UH-1 Huey, Su-25, P-51PD, Caucasus map, Nevada map, Persian Gulf map, Marianas map, Syria Map, Super Carrier, Sinai map, Mosquito, P-51, AH-64 Apache

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