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Concerns about G-Onset and Damage to wings


ElvisDaKang

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5 hours ago, PetRock said:

Oh... you can't use the AI Flight model to base any test on. Its widely known they use a much more simplified FM that is "generous" with the laws of physics.

I was curious if you had flown the same profile, in the F-5, before/after last patch. 

Has anyone else done so?

 

Hey PetRock,

I suppose I might need some clarification on what you mean by run, and profile.

I agree about the simplified FM, but that is my point.  If they are inaccurate, understood.  But they should scale across planes, so that a third gen plane should not fly with more capability than its forth gen successor.

But on the topic, there is no reason why we can't ask for improved SFM?  After all these years?  As I mentioned this affects AI opponents and wingmen.

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29 minutes ago, LowRider88 said:

Of course you can ask, however people have already asked for that for years , as well as for better AI decision-making.ED announced a new more precise FM for AI called GFM a while ago.

However at the speed that things usually get developed, realistically expect to wait another few years before it’s really implemented widely.


Edited by Snappy
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6 hours ago, Snappy said:

Of course you can ask, however people have already asked for that for years , as well as for better AI decision-making.ED announced a new more precise FM for AI called GFM a while ago.

However at the speed that things usually get developed, realistically expect to wait another few years before it’s really implemented widely.

 

AI behavior has changed tremendously recently. They fly in a more realistic fashion at the higher skill levels and the lower skill levels aren’t quite as stupid as they were. Overall, a positive change although not quite ideal. 

 

 

 

 

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7 hours ago, Snappy said:

Of course you can ask, however people have already asked for that for years , as well as for better AI decision-making.ED announced a new more precise FM for AI called GFM a while ago.

However at the speed that things usually get developed, realistically expect to wait another few years before it’s really implemented widely.

 

That is good to know.  However, I point out my findings as some may not be aware of the plane vs plane or skill level vs skill level differences.

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3 hours ago, =475FG= Dawger said:

AI behavior has changed tremendously recently. They fly in a more realistic fashion at the higher skill levels and the lower skill levels aren’t quite as stupid as they were. Overall, a positive change although not quite ideal. 

Are you referring to their flight model or to their "decision making?" with regards to the change you noticed?
For the latter (the "I" in AI) , I find them as stupid as ever. Droning around in big circles, only changing between horizontal and vertical circles.Also you can shoot tracers right past their canopy or wingtips and still they don't jink or change plane of motion. They just keep going on the same previous trajectory which just makes them easier to kill.

As for the FM, I have yet to see an AI plane stall or not make a miraculous speedy recovery from low energy state. 
In my opininon they have a long long way to go before they get semi- realisitic or catch up to the unname-able competiton.

However maybe we should argue in a seperate dedicated thread.The way ED forum management operates lately, especially in regards to criticism , I expect see this thread being "sanitized" any day now, due to going "off-topic".


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  • 3 weeks later...

 

2 hours ago, deeleyer said:

That slam on the stick after firing gives something to think.

 

This definitely does not happen in single player.  Seems to be a multiplayer bug.  Some say it is due to accumulate damage after spawning.  Would be good to know how many spawns prior to this.  Video poster also mentioned he was shot at.

Plane should not be flyable after the wings are gone.  No ailerons for rolling, and no lift.

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8 hours ago, LowRider88 said:

 

This definitely does not happen in single player.  Seems to be a multiplayer bug.  Some say it is due to accumulate damage after spawning.  Would be good to know how many spawns prior to this.  Video poster also mentioned he was shot at.

Plane should not be flyable after the wings are gone.  No ailerons for rolling, and no lift.

I can easily rip off the wings and continue to fly in SP if that's what you mean? 🤷🏼‍♂️ 

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2 hours ago, LowRider88 said:

Yep, that's what I meant.  How did you do it?  Can you post a vid?  I can try to reproduce on my end if you show me how.

I was testing some the black box/flickering bug, so I just flew a lap and by accident pulled a little hard on the stick. Didn't really realise what had happened but the plane wanted to roll right. Noticed the loss of wings in F2. But it was harder to fly though. 

I'll see if I can make a video. 

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On 12/18/2021 at 11:13 PM, ElvisDaKang said:

=475FG= Dawger  stated EXACTLY what I knew was going on to begin with. He has FAR greater patience than I do in this thread and in life in general.

BELOW are the SIMPLE facts eloquently, accurately and briefly stated by Dawger -  and they are -  beyond dispute. It has nothing to do with someone's """""""DCS flying flying skill"""""  OR - """"""what are you doing at 11Gs anyway???""" ( One damn thing for sure is ..........what ever we  are doing at 11G is what we want to do and is no one else's business).  Where in TF did that $H*t come from ? It is a SIMPLE statement going NO further than the  structural integrity  vs.  Mr. G of the F-5E in DCS. IT IS INACCURATE. FKN PERIOD. One hopes that after buying this thing (and others)  and paying good money for it that things like this will be addressed. The same is true of ANY aircraft purchased. It will either be addressed or it will not. If it isn't,  it sends a signal to consumers as to what choice to make the next time around. Some ASSume that these things are GOLD right out of the box. They are not. Changes also result in DCS upgrades/updates across these aircraft ..........IF you are paying attention...... and they are not all documented. Several problems like this have been addressed by several of the aircraft producers/vendors after it has been brought to their attention - which is the RIGHT THING to do by anyone that wants to continue to make a profit. We will see where it goes with the F-5E Tiger II. 

FACTS

The DCS F-5 wing breaks at 11 G the first time you reach it, which is demonstrably wrong.

The DCS F-5 will shed its wings with very minor roll inputs above 7 G, also demonstrably wrong.

SO SAYETH THE DAWG - SO IT HAS BEEN WRITTEN 

LONG LIVE THE DAWG

 

END OF STORY. 

 

JESUS TAP DANCING CHRIST

You have a generous definition of what a fact is. You can see that there's a dispute to their accuracy, so you don't need to be rude nor is it warranted in any way.


Edited by m4ti140
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4 hours ago, LowRider88 said:

Yep, that's what I meant.  How did you do it?  Can you post a vid?  I can try to reproduce on my end if you show me how.

Right.

No weapons. In track one. I pull the stick "slowly" two times, and the wings don't rip, even at 10+ Gs. The third time I yank the stick, and they immediately come off.

Second track. Is just breaking the wings immediately.

Video is first track.

 

F-5E - Wingbreak Test-2.trk F-5E - Wingbreak Test-1.trk

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1 hour ago, MAXsenna said:

Right.

No weapons. In track one. I pull the stick "slowly" two times, and the wings don't rip, even at 10+ Gs. The third time I yank the stick, and they immediately come off.

Second track. Is just breaking the wings immediately.

Video is first track.

 

F-5E - Wingbreak Test-2.trk 984.85 kB · 0 downloads F-5E - Wingbreak Test-1.trk 857.4 kB · 0 downloads

Thanks MAXsenna, I  will try the same this weekend.  Although I requested, I'm sure I'm not the only one though who will also try.

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1 hour ago, MAXsenna said:

Right.

No weapons. In track one. I pull the stick "slowly" two times, and the wings don't rip, even at 10+ Gs. The third time I yank the stick, and they immediately come off.

Second track. Is just breaking the wings immediately.

Video is first track.

 

F-5E - Wingbreak Test-2.trk 984.85 kB · 0 downloads F-5E - Wingbreak Test-1.trk 857.4 kB · 0 downloads

Your video is interesting also for another reason.  You also get the flashing black half screen (immediately after your take off) as I see when flying certain planes and maps.  Not sure if that has been raised as a bug yet.

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9 minutes ago, LowRider88 said:

Your video is interesting also for another reason.  You also get the flashing black half screen (immediately after your take off) as I see when flying certain planes and maps.  Not sure if that has been raised as a bug yet.

Of thank you! But it's been reported. 😁

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  • 3 weeks later...
On 1/26/2022 at 2:15 PM, MAXsenna said:

Right.

No weapons. In track one. I pull the stick "slowly" two times, and the wings don't rip, even at 10+ Gs. The third time I yank the stick, and they immediately come off.

Second track. Is just breaking the wings immediately.

Video is first track.

 

F-5E - Wingbreak Test-2.trk 984.85 kB · 2 downloads F-5E - Wingbreak Test-1.trk 857.4 kB · 2 downloads

Still plan to try this out.  Just taking a break from DCS to catch the Winter Games.  Should be trying this in a week or two.

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  • 1 month later...

Don't forget there is sustained vs. instantaneous g loading. If you "yank" the stick, you're imparting very high instantaneous loads on the airframe, and it could be this that's breaking it.

The g meter can only show sustained g loadings. It doesn't react *that* quickly to g.

Motorola 68000 | 1 Mb | Debug port

"When performing a forced landing, fly the aircraft as far into the crash as possible." - Bob Hoover.

The JF-17 is not better than the F-16; it's different. It's how you fly that counts.

"An average aircraft with a skilled pilot, will out-perform the superior aircraft with an average pilot."

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31 minutes ago, Tiger-II said:

Don't forget there is sustained vs. instantaneous g loading. If you "yank" the stick, you're imparting very high instantaneous loads on the airframe, and it could be this that's breaking it.

The g meter can only show sustained g loadings. It doesn't react *that* quickly to g.

The F-5 is now very fragile. If you introduce ANY (and I do mean the tiniest amount) roll input at 8 G or above, the wings will come off. Extremely silly but it doesn't look like it is going to be changed.

Since I fly almost exclusively guns and rear aspect missiles only MP servers, I am very much looking forward to the F-4 so I can put the poor, frail F-5 in the retirement home.

Such a shame to screw up such an enjoyable module in such an ignorant fashion.

And don't bother with the "realism" arguments.

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2 hours ago, =475FG= Dawger said:

The F-5 is now very fragile. If you introduce ANY (and I do mean the tiniest amount) roll input at 8 G or above, the wings will come off. Extremely silly but it doesn't look like it is going to be changed.

Could you confirm this rather strong statement? I think that you are wrong and I provide this track. 9-10G roll with a stick up to the limit.

F5_9G_roll.trk

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On 12/5/2021 at 2:02 PM, ElvisDaKang said:

Don't Sneeze on the F-5s Wings.....................they have become porcelain. 😬

 

I mean REALLY ??

?????? What u talkin about? Its fine. Its a 7G airframe. Use Aleron limiter sparringly. Every aircraft has G and gross weight limit. Put bombs on F-5 wings, now its a 5.5 G limit. Two Sidewinders on tips, now its a 6.5G limit. External fuel tanks limit to 5 G when full. 6G when empty or they may detach and damage wing.

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Just because you can pull 10 g's in an airframe doesn't mean it can take it structurally. Remember, older airframes have no flybywire that limits whatever you put in the stick, older airframes generally don't have as high G-tolerances as more modern airframes do. Just because you can pull it doesn't mean it can take it.


Edited by addman
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23 hours ago, cofcorpse said:

Could you confirm this rather strong statement? I think that you are wrong and I provide this track. 9-10G roll with a stick up to the limit.

F5_9G_roll.trk 30.9 kB · 3 downloads

Thank you for posting your track.

I think I may have some additional insight into why this is happening.

Your track appears to be very precise control movements resulting in the ability to apply full roll deflection (up to the limiter) at high G levels.

So we know that we should have the ability to do this, which is good news.

My question is in relation to the hardware and control tuning you used to fly this track?

With my setup, I am seeing unintentional elevator inputs when the aileron deflection limit is reached, resulting in additional load and subsequent catastrophic wing failure.

This also would explain why some people experience a very fragile wing and others seem to have no issues.

I would like to track down the root cause.

Again, thanks for providing a much needed clue.

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36 minutes ago, =475FG= Dawger said:

Thank you for posting your track.

I think I may have some additional insight into why this is happening.

Your track appears to be very precise control movements resulting in the ability to apply full roll deflection (up to the limiter) at high G levels.

So we know that we should have the ability to do this, which is good news.

My question is in relation to the hardware and control tuning you used to fly this track?

With my setup, I am seeing unintentional elevator inputs when the aileron deflection limit is reached, resulting in additional load and subsequent catastrophic wing failure.

This also would explain why some people experience a very fragile wing and others seem to have no issues.

I would like to track down the root cause.

Again, thanks for providing a much needed clue.

I'm using Thrustmaster Warthog. I always set 3-4 deadzone for pitch and roll axis. And I was trying to make a clean roll stick movement.

But I think the main reason I did not break wings is that F-5E is loaded only with 50% of the fuel and two missiles. This is the mass after which the acceleration limitation decreases. And with a greater mass it is possible that wing will break in a roll at lower G-load than in the track.

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