F-14 Air to Air Refueling Practice (Caucasus) problem

[RafaPolit]

Good afternoon friends!  Very new to DCS here, first post!  Really loving learning the different planes and the different locations.

As part of my "learning" process, I have done all the (pilot) training missions and now I am doing the Instant Actions for the F-14, as well as reading most relevant parts of the manual (for my current level).

I'm now trying to do the Air to Air Refueling Practice for the Caucasus map, yet I am confused: the instructions read that I should "practice dancing with the starboard basket while your wingman tanks on the port side".  There is no basket on the right hand side.  I try an "Intent to refuel" call, I get the altitude and speed, still no basket.   I send a  "Ready pre-contact" and receive a "Return pre-contact" back that sounds more like a question, and I am stuck in that loop and never see a basket.

What am I missing?  Sorry if this is obvious, I am really new so be lenient this time, I promise I pick up things quickly!

As for a side laugh and proof that I don't have a basket... here's a small capture of me getting too close to the wing to see the missing basket.

 

Thanks in advance, really happy to be part of this community of pilots.

Rafa.

 

Edited December 8, 2021 by RafaPolit

[Eagle7907]

Have your own wingman go to tanker first for refuel, then intent to refuel. That will force the left basket to him and the right basket to you. Also the return precontact is because you’re saying you’re at precontact either too close or too far from tanker.


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[RafaPolit]

Thanks for the answer.  I don't think I'm getting the expected behavior.  If I send my wingman first, I never get a basket... if I allow him to refuel and finish, the basket HE was using is actually retracted!  How far away would I need to signal the pre-contact?  Thanks.

[Lt_Jaeger]

Did it again today to de-rust. Worked as it is supposed to work.  For the ready pre-contact you have to be pretty close. 

[Callsign JoNay]

3 minutes ago, Lt_Jaeger said:

For the ready pre-contact you have to be pretty close. 

I disagree. The most common mistake I see from friends is they are too close when calling ready pre contact. You can actually be much farther away than you think.

[RafaPolit]

1 hour ago, Lt_Jaeger said:

...Worked as it is supposed to work.  For the ready pre-contact you have to be pretty close. 

Well... the thing that is, apparently, not working as it is supposed to are my flying abilities.  I finally managed to get more or less stable behind the plane, almost tasting the fumes from the jets, and my "pre-contact" call was actually returned with a "contact ready" and the basket extended.  But I cannot keep that position to even close to the smoothness I have seen online with people nailing that basket.  My nose jumps all around, my speed as well.  I think this is a case of pilot error.

 

Regarding @Callsign JoNay 's comment... maybe it's not a matter of distance but more steadiness and matching speed?  Yeah, I'll have to improve a lot before attempting this, I guess.

Thanks for all the answers!!!

Rafa.

Edited December 9, 2021 by RafaPolit

[draconus]

For the good health of both you, Jester, your Wingman and the tanker crew just stay on the tanker's wing practicing formation flying for now.

What hardware do you have -  HOTAS and monitor/VR?

[RafaPolit]

HOTAS and monitor... just purchased the HOTAS and getting used to it, plus deciding if using any "curve" setting for the main stick or not.  

Obviously it's a lot of skills to learn, but I'm struggling with controlling the view orientation with the HOTAS.  Not sure I can / want to invest in a TrackIR at this point, so watching sideways and up to home into the tanker is not ideal. Also, when the tanker gets "behind" the blind spots on the cockpit, it's hard to assess how it's going to end up after it shows.  Of course, all of these difficulties are because of my lack of skill and any skilled pilot would be able to do this with halve a stick and one eye, but I'm currently really struggling.

 

Thanks for the tips!

[Jayhawk1971]

I'd advise against using curves for stick and rudder in the Tomcat. Just maybe a teeny tiny deadzone (depending on how precise your flight stick is). It's an analogue aircraft, so curves are counterproductive (even if you flight stick doesn't have an extension). You could add custom curves to your throttle because many HOTAS throttles lack the range (just search the forums, there are some helpful posts on this). The Tomcat needs a light touch which will take a while to get used to: I usually only steer with two fingers while resting my arm on top of my leg.

Do yourself a favor and invest in some form of headtracking; it's pretty much mandatory if you really want to get the most out of this sim. There are other solutions than TrackIR, although I have no experience with those. 

And don't be too hard on yourself, everybody was struggling with AAR at first. For me, switching from "pancake" (2D screen) to VR was an absolute game changer in this regard. With TrackIR I kinda sorta got it to work after much practice (and after lots of swearing and shooting the tanker in frustration); as soon as I made the switch to VR, it became a lot easier: where at first I tried to avoid AAR at all costs, now I do it even if I have plenty of fuel, just because it's become fun. Depth perception, sense of scale, sense of motion, and leaning around the canopy rail is much easier in VR. The next best thing is head tracking. 

There are some good tutorial videos regarding AAR in the Tomcat. I've found this to be among the best (albeit a bit dated, because probe drag wasn't modelled at the time of the video; now you need to add a bit of rudder to compensate):

 

Edited December 10, 2021 by Jayhawk1971

[WinOrLose]

1 hour ago, RafaPolit said:

HOTAS and monitor... just purchased the HOTAS and getting used to it, plus deciding if using any "curve" setting for the main stick or not.  

Obviously it's a lot of skills to learn, but I'm struggling with controlling the view orientation with the HOTAS.  Not sure I can / want to invest in a TrackIR at this point, so watching sideways and up to home into the tanker is not ideal. Also, when the tanker gets "behind" the blind spots on the cockpit, it's hard to assess how it's going to end up after it shows.  Of course, all of these difficulties are because of my lack of skill and any skilled pilot would be able to do this with halve a stick and one eye, but I'm currently really struggling.

 

Thanks for the tips!

Try and get your self trimmed for level flight with wings in bomb mode.

 

[draconus]

Apart from one's skill the hardware plays important role in AAR difficulty. Same for formation flying.

Let me propose a fun quiz

What HOTAS do you own?

1. Cheap one - 0 pts

2. Medium - 2 pts

3. Good one - 4 pts

What headtracking and view do you use?

1. Monitor w/o headtracking - 0 pts

2. Monitor w/headtracking - 1 pt

3. VR - 3 pts

What performance do you have?

1. Low fps - 0 pts

2. Good fps (over 30) - 1 pt

Now add the points and check:

0-2 you'll have a hard time performing AAR

3-7 good enough for AAR

8 - you'll have easy time with AAR

[RafaPolit]

Thanks for the input friends!  

So, yeah, I know practice will make me better. Having the wings at bomb position did help with reducing the changes in attitude and pitch for the time being.

I have a Logitech X-56 and Logitech Rudder, probably that puts it in the "medium" category Draconus? No headtracking yet, I'm looking into purchasing a TrackIR.  I do get 30fps most of the time at 1440p with my NVIDIA 2060 but I guess I'm on the "medium" side of performance as well.

So, I score 3 points on your AAR difficulty scale   On the lowish side of good enough.

I did reduce the curves to "just a tad" like @Jayhawk1971suggested, I believe it helped.  I'm not using rudder at all during the procedure, yet Jay mention's rudder to avoid drag.  Do you guys use much rudder during this procedures?

 

Yeah, the trim is probably the most important thing I'm neglecting!

Thanks again,

Rafa.

[Jayhawk1971]

Actually, I meant zero curves for your control stick, as in completely linear. And you could add a deadzone if applicable (depending on your X-56's precision). 

Regarding rudder, just add the amount necessary to fly with a centered ball.

Trim is essential, as mentioned in the video I've posted.

I don't know in which category you fall re. learning: Some approach this methodically by doing whole AAR training sessions. Me, on the other hand, like to tie these "chores" to other activities, so that even if I fail at one task, there are other tasks (usually blowing something up) that I can complete in order to have some fun along the way, and an overall positive experience. It can be a bit frustrating sometimes to try something over and over again with little immediate success. So maybe succeeding at something else keeps the motivation level up. 

There are some missions and campaigns where AAR is part of the mission, but not necessary to complete it (if you are not in full burner all the time  ). So more or less optional. Back when I was learning, I had this rule that I'd try, but gave myself a reasonable time limit or window, and if I couldn't hook up, I moved on. This also had the added effect of increasing the "replay-ability" of those missions. 

Incidentally, what really pushed me over the "bump" was playing Reflected's "Zone 5" campaign. Where, if you are not going completely bonkers with your throttle management, don't ever have to refuel. But: you are forced to fly formation with the AI in at least a third of the missions, and you are supposed to follow other admin procedures, which somehow made my overall handling of the Tomcat a lot more precise, and immensely helped my AAR-capabilities.

Edited December 10, 2021 by Jayhawk1971

[RafaPolit]

Yeah, good points Jayhawk... I mostly fall in a category "in between"... I am methodical, but, after a while, I prefer to stop being frustrated, and just turn away for a while and return.  I actually figured out how much I suck at this, precisely, during the LANTRIN mission that requests for you to refuel.  Still, if I have to travel 40 miles, bomb a couple of places, then travel another 40 to the tanker, only to fail miserably, then that is not great either!

 

Still, I am still very far away from succeeding, but from this:

(Notice the poor tanker pilots ejecting!  )

 

To this:

(I'm actually "stuck" in the tankers elevator")

 

To finally, at least, having a basket in sight and on the correct side of the plane:

 

(And, this basket actually came out for me, after it was retracted for my wingman - he had finished quite a while ago -), so, things look like there might be some chance to actually some day achieve this.

Thanks for all the help and feedback! It's really nice to have someone to share this with and be able to receive suggestions / criticism.

 

Thanks,

Rafa.

 

 

[Hector45]

Track IR is a must, there are DIY methods as well with free software called opentrack. Check it out, lot cheaper than track IR's all in one kit.

[Gibo]

Rafa as i bought the Tomcat I was in real truble to connect with the tanker as you are now; i tried to match the tanker speed (watching my speed with Ctrl Y) but i could not link with it because there werw too much oscillations Then I tried something different and suddently i could link witn the tanker and with a little of practice i could even complete the refuel. The trick that saved me was try not to match the tanker speed exactly but approch the basket wit almost 2, 3 kts of overspeed; then when you connect reduce the gas a little to stay connected watching the pod from the basket is coming out as a reference pont and the tanker  with your peripherical sight. Using this method the approch is much more stable and there are less oscillations and it is esyer to preview the basket movements as it get close to the probe of your aircraft. With that trick I can refuel now even without track ir.

I hope this can halp you to sort out a very frustrating limitation.

 

[Vertigo72]

As a fellow newbie who still ends up shooting the tanker out of frustration,  if you struggle getting close to refueling, I would advice you to let it go for now and practice formation flying. I made a few simple missions with an AI tomcat flying over gorgeous maps with smokewinders, and I just practice flying finger tip formation with that. Its much more enjoyable, less frustrating and excellent practice.  Its a shame you apparently cant make missions where you are the wingman and following an AI lead, but using 2 flights you can achieve the same. I think this would be a good idea to include by default, some formation flying training/instant action mission.

Edited January 9, 2022 by Vertigo72

[Swordsman422]

I can do it without VR or Track IR. It just takes a bit of practice. Get into precontact and put your wing sweep in bomb mode, one click down on the wing mode switch. Trim for level flight, approach the basket slowly and power back half a notch right before you contact the basket. I usually keep my eyes on the drough nacelle on the tanker wing with occasionally glances at the tanker fuselage, making sure to park both the nacelle and the roundel in a specific place in my canopy and being mindful of both direction and rate of its movement. Make VERY MINOR corrections when you have to make them, usually half or less what you want to make, and don't blink particularly often. Unless the tanker is in an orbit, these techniques really help me hold connection for the entire transfer. If the tanker is in an orbit or turn, I rudder in to the turn with it, first more than tanker's rate to catch up and then slack off rudder to match turn rate, keeping an eye on his wing to determine if he's leveling out and steadying up. Once transfer is complete, back out slowly, drift over to formation position, start trimming as you set sweep to auto and continue to hold level. Once trimmed out and all aircraft are complete, kiss off and continue mission.

I wouldn't call myself the best basket fencer, or even particularly good at it, but using these techniques has helped me hold contact without VR.

Edited January 10, 2022 by Swordsman422

[RafaPolit]

Well, just to post a follow up on this... it has been nearly 6 months since my initial pilot-incompetence-question in this thread.  Since then, I spent countless hours flying different planes: mostly the Bf-109, also the F-16, the Tomcat and the F/A-18, also many hours on the Apache and Huey.

Just today, I was able to fill "most" (98%) of my tank on the F-14 during refueling!!!  Eureka!!!

Probably wouldn't make it to the Air Force with such a poor performance.  I can refuel the F-16 now, and the F/A-18 in the first try.  Still, the Tomcat is difficult to get into a perfectly trimmed flight.  Still, I think I can say that I have achieved my first A-A refueling in the Tomcat today.

Thanks for all the input and suggestions.  They have worked, along with crazy amounts of fly time in order to get "proficient" with the stick.

Best regards,

Rafa.

Edited June 2, 2022 by RafaPolit

[IronMike]

Congratulations @RafaPolit! Great news and very happy to hear!

Just one remark to the "perfectly trimmed flight": there ain't no such thing, while a fly by wire aircraft might give you such an impression. I recently recorded this small tutorial for someone struggling to hold a stable altitude, and the tips there apply the same for flying formations, etc, if you want to check it out, take a look:
 

 

[WarthogOsl]

A lot of folks, myself included, tend to trim the F-14 a bit nose down for AAR, then use constant back pressure on the stick to maintain stable flight.  The idea here is that you never have to cross through the transition from back stick to forward stick, which can be awkward, and lead to PIO.  Instead, you just vary the back stick tension. 

[RafaPolit]

Thanks @IronMike and @WarthogOsl.  I appreciate the video and the tips.  Certainly still a lot of room to improve... I'll start experimenting with this ideas.  Thanks.

[Zaphael]

Start with wings in Bomb. Trim level and rejoin on tanker then slide into pre-contact.

Start with the basket to the right and in line or slightly above the upper canopy bow from pre-contact (aka slightly high basket). Ensure aircraft is trimmed level there and there is no overtake. 

Add power to get a "creeping" level of closure. Aircraft will rise to the level of the basket.  Tap right rudder if needed to align the probe, but be ready to counter with stick input.

Constant power adjustment will be needed to maintain the creeping pace of closure, and to fly in formation with tanker.