correct as-is TWS cycling targets with TMS

[Topgun505]

So last I knew when in TWS mode you are able to cycle the bug among detected targets with TMS right-short, and as of late that doesn't appear to be working.  Is anyone else having that problem?  Or did something change?

[4NGRY]

Yup same here

[Frederf]

TMS right (short) only steps between system tracks. By default all tracks are tank tracks (not system). To be steppable/snappable they have to be elevated. Elevation can happen by cursor and TMS up (no bug) or if there are zero system tracks by TMS right (elevates up to 10). Un-elevation is by TMS down (no bug).

It's really hard to tell what's going on with the Link 16 layer on top which is why it's a good idea to learn how it work with MIDS switched off. Here's a track showing manipulations of the TWS radar and elevating/un-elevating/stepping tracks by TMS up/right/down.

F16 TWS step.trk

[GrEaSeLiTeNiN]

From what I've tested, say you have Link16 on and see 3 full red triangles (correlated hostiles) on the FCR. You bug one and want to bug cycle the others with TMS right. If it does not happen it is because the other 2 are actually not system files (hollow squares) yet but track files (full squares). You can't tell because the full red triangles have covered these squares. But you can verify this by turning MIDS (Link16) off and look at the squares. You can only cycle bug system files (hollow squares). What you need to do (if Link16 is still on with those full red triangles covering the squares) is:

1. TMS down to unbug
2. TMS down again to set all to track files
3. TMS right to set all to system files
4. Bug one and then you can cycle bug   

You do the above without seeing the squares but understanding what's actually going on 'hidden beneath' the full triangles.

I think the problem is that full or hollow triangles in the FCR have to do with correlation, not track/system file status. It's symbology brought over from the HSD where full or hollow are about correlated/uncorrelated. But in the FCR (MIDS off), full or hollow squares are about track/system file status. Do correct me if I am wrong.

Cheers 
 

[4NGRY]

On 12/11/2021 at 7:25 PM, Frederf said:

TMS right (short) only steps between system tracks. By default all tracks are tank tracks (not system). To be steppable/snappable they have to be elevated. Elevation can happen by cursor and TMS up (no bug) or if there are zero system tracks by TMS right (elevates up to 10). Un-elevation is by TMS down (no bug).

It's really hard to tell what's going on with the Link 16 layer on top which is why it's a good idea to learn how it work with MIDS switched off. Here's a track showing manipulations of the TWS radar and elevating/un-elevating/stepping tracks by TMS up/right/down.

F16 TWS step.trk 45.11 kB · 3 downloads

Thx champ! Cheers

[GiveMeHanzo]

On 12/12/2021 at 10:17 PM, GrEaSeLiTeNiN said:

From what I've tested, say you have Link16 on and see 3 full red triangles (correlated hostiles) on the FCR. You bug one and want to bug cycle the others with TMS right. If it does not happen it is because the other 2 are actually not system files (hollow squares) yet but track files (full squares). You can't tell because the full red triangles have covered these squares. But you can verify this by turning MIDS (Link16) off and look at the squares. You can only cycle bug system files (hollow squares). What you need to do (if Link16 is still on with those full red triangles covering the squares) is:

1. TMS down to unbug
2. TMS down again to set all to track files
3. TMS right to set all to system files
4. Bug one and then you can cycle bug   

You do the above without seeing the squares but understanding what's actually going on 'hidden beneath' the full triangles.

I think the problem is that full or hollow triangles in the FCR have to do with correlation, not track/system file status. It's symbology brought over from the HSD where full or hollow are about correlated/uncorrelated. But in the FCR (MIDS off), full or hollow squares are about track/system file status. Do correct me if I am wrong.

Cheers 
 

This is kinda annoying, is this realistic or no? I never had this issue before the radar nerf, but it could be the old radar can see much farther, so all the full triangle has track file.

[Frederf]

A ha. I found evidence that L16 correlation is limited to system tracks. Preventing tank tracks from correlating would solve a lot of confusion.

[RuskyV]

You can filter out data linked information in the FCR by using the UHF/in and UHF/out key commands. One will cycle through various filter options and the other will turn off and on all DL contacts. You should be able to correlate any info seen in the FCR with the HSD by cross referencing what is under the ghost cursor’s. 

[LazyBoot]

On 12/17/2021 at 9:38 AM, RuskyV said:

You can filter out data linked information in the FCR by using the UHF/in and UHF/out key commands. One will cycle through various filter options and the other will turn off and on all DL contacts. You should be able to correlate any info seen in the FCR with the HSD by cross referencing what is under the ghost cursor’s. 

Last time I tested, this did not work... It would only hide contacts your own fcr haven't detected, but any the fcr has detected will still be shown with all datalink information. The only way I've found to see the underlying track status (and not datalink info) is to turn off the datalink using the mids switch.

[RuskyV]

It works.

Page 170 of the viper manual, easier for you to read for yourself. Just make sure you are using the correct bindings

[LazyBoot]

8 hours ago, RuskyV said:

It works.

Page 170 of the viper manual, easier for you to read for yourself. Just make sure you are using the correct bindings

Here's what I see when I do that... Datalink status are still clearly showing even on "none"

While what I would like to have some way to see would be something closer to what is shown with datalink off (as in the image below), but without needing to turn the entire datalink system off

Edited December 20, 2021 by LazyBoot

[Frederf]

It should be a short press of IFFCOM hat inboard/outboard (forget) which should wipe DL contacts for a time. IDM takes a while to make an update but L16 can be fast. Wiping data could be repopulated super fast.

• IFF inboard cycles ALL -> FTR+ -> TGTS or if NONE it selects the last non-NONE selection.
• IFF outboard alternates X -> NONE where X is the setting as set above.

Edited December 20, 2021 by Frederf

[EFcrazy]

Sorry to bump an old topic. I’m fairly new to DCS and the Viper. 

So far I’ve found much more success with RWS mode and DTT. I can fairly easily lock up 2 targets, and fire at both in this mode.

I’ve been struggling with TWS mode, mainly due to how slow the targets turn into track files, and also the confusion caused by L16. Anyone have tips on getting TWS mode to play nice? Or any situation where it is better than RWS mode?

 

Thanks in advance.

[LazyBoot]

3 hours ago, EFcrazy said:

I’ve been struggling with TWS mode, mainly due to how slow the targets turn into track files, and also the confusion caused by L16. Anyone have tips on getting TWS mode to play nice?

Reduce the scan volume

[Frederf]

6 hours ago, EFcrazy said:

Sorry to bump an old topic. I’m fairly new to DCS and the Viper. 

So far I’ve found much more success with RWS mode and DTT. I can fairly easily lock up 2 targets, and fire at both in this mode.

I’ve been struggling with TWS mode, mainly due to how slow the targets turn into track files, and also the confusion caused by L16. Anyone have tips on getting TWS mode to play nice? Or any situation where it is better than RWS mode?

 

Thanks in advance.

I've generally used TWS after generating the picture in RWS first. Even though RWS isn't displaying tracks, the radar is still busy making them at all times. Usually 2 missiles at 2 targets is the most I'll shoot so DTT works well and having only two tracks makes it hard to step to the wrong target during the shooting part of the engagement.

TWS is necessary for engagements of 3-6 simultaneous targets which the radar and AIM-120 can do if needed. TWS has value for monitoring vector info when keeping an eye on a situation if it matters. Before Link 16 you really didn't have as much situational awareness in plain RWS. Without flight members tracking stuff over IDM they were at best white dots with only a trend line. This two kinds of tracks (tanks, system) really throws a wrench in working with TWS as you have to blindly keep track of which are which type when L16 is obscuring that. I think technically tank tracks aren't supposed to DL correlate which (if true) would be a great change and make TWS easier to use. In short, don't go into TWS until you feel you have time and space and want that extra information layer. Oh, and use the smallest azimuth/bar settings you can in any mode. Spotlight scan is going to be super helpful when it gets introduced. That's my advice.

[QuiGon]

On 12/16/2021 at 1:57 AM, Frederf said:

A ha. I found evidence that L16 correlation is limited to system tracks. Preventing tank tracks from correlating would solve a lot of confusion.

That seems legit and would make a lot of sense (tank tracks are pretty raw tracks with not a lot of data assigned to them, which would probably make it difficult anyways to correlate them with DL tracks). It would be great to have it like that in DCS as well (providing this is indeed how it works IRL)!

Edited January 13, 2022 by QuiGon

[EFcrazy]

Thank you all the the helpful information. I have been reducing the azimuth to 30 degrees, which helps somewhat. Should I go 2 bar as well? 

Also I tend to be aggressive and burn towards the engagement. If I find myself in situations where I can sit back a bit and assess the situation, I’ll use TWS more.