Stutters / flickery motion with new 144Hz Freesync monitor and Track IR running

[mtpiperpilot]

Hello everyone,

I recently bought a new Asus VG279 (27" 1920x1080) Freesync IPS 144 Hz display to replace a 12 year old 23" 60 Hz unit. With my Lenovo legion laptop, I use the USB-C port that doubles as a DisplayPort connection to my RTX2060. I have the monitor set-up, @144 Hz, and configured it just fine as Gsync Compatible.

And... so far I have very mixed feelings.

On one hand, enabling Gsync MASSIVELY helped smooth out MSFS2020. I was actually shocked; I wasnt expecting it, beacuse I know Gsync/Freesync is mostly for higher framerates. But, MSFS is one of the smoothest running sims I've ever experienced now, whereas with the old monitor, it was fully of fluctuating framerates and microstutters. It's truly like a new program.

Unfortunately, DCS seems to have been affected in the opposite way. I'm using mostly the "High" presets in DCS. It used to run at 60fps with the old 60 Hz display and was almost always smooth and stutter free; rock solid reliable. Now, it's full of little stutters, and even more concerning, any time I move my head with Track IR 5, the motion is no longer fluid. Its hard to describe. Its almost like its dropping frames when my head is moving. Its abrasive, and very distracting. 

I've researched this and found a few older topics here on the forums and tried quite a few things so far, but nothing has helped. I've tried toggling Vsync in-sim and in NCP, I've tried Fullscreen/Windowed mode, Fullscreen Optimizations option turned off for the .exe file. I've read about Vsync "fast" or "adaptive", but I dont have these options in NCP. The problem now is I really dont know what the issue is or what to try - I dont want to start adjusting settings everywhere and make it worse.

Does anyone have any ideas? I must be missing something critical. Thanks!

Might be related: Concurrently I'm having a brightness flickering issue in the loading screens of both DCS and MSFS2020, which I've read about and know is "normal" for Freesync displays, whereas true Gsync displays will not exhibit this as much. But I've noticed that the flickering only happens when Track IR software is running. It will even sometimes flicker my desktop background, with ONLY Track IR running. You can read more about the flickering issues here: https://forums.flightsimulator.com/t/new-gsync-compatible-monitor-brightness-flickering-with-track-ir/

Specs: i7-10750 6-core CPU, 32 GB DDR4 ram, and Nvidia RTX 2060 GPU with 6bg of memory. Two 1TB M.2 NVMe SSDs. Asus VG279 144hz IPS Freesync screen.

Edit: This is the only thread I found that seems similar to my issue? But there are no clear solutions in there. Someone said something to the effect "Gsync monitors dont work with Track IR". Sure hope that's not true!  

 

Edited December 14, 2021 by mtpiperpilot

[Lange_666]

GSync (or other monitors) works fine with TrackIR as long as you set your monitors refreshrate to the pulling rate of TrackIR and cap the FPS to one of these values.
Pull rate of TrackIR is 120Hz (full devisions of this value work too, like 60 or 30 but then 30 is to low for fast movers like in DCS). The moment your DCS FPS will move away from the TrackIR pull rate (either higher or lower), you'll notice a slight stutter, especially when looking sideways when the terrain moves very quickly. The more your FPS drifts from that magic value, the more stutter you'll see.
To get around TrackIR stuttering i set my 144Hz capable monitor to 120Hz and then cap the FPS to 60 (because i can't maintain 120 FPS across the entire range).
I tried various settings to make TrackIR experience as smooth as possible but the above is the only one that really works, for me at least.

[mtpiperpilot]

Thanks, that sounds like a very reasonable solution! I'll give it a go tonight and report back!

Edited December 14, 2021 by mtpiperpilot

[rob s]

I have an acer predator z 35 monitor with g.sinc 144 hz with trac ir and l've never had any problems

[mtpiperpilot]

11 minutes ago, rob s said:

I have an acer predator z 35 monitor with g.sinc 144 hz with trac ir and l've never had any problems

From what I understand, theres a big difference between "Gsync" and "Gsync Compatible Freesync". I have the latter. That might be why? And I'll also throw this out there - some people are more sensitive to flicker. I had a friend who had really stuttery gameplay, and he saw it as "smooth, stutter free". I couldnt even stand it. 

[Lange_666]

3 hours ago, rob s said:

I have an acer predator z 35 monitor with g.sinc 144 hz with trac ir and l've never had any problems

When you run 144 Hz refresh, there is a mismatch between the monitors refresh rate and TrackIR pull rate.
When VSync comes into play ( and i run VSync because it still gives me the smoothest movement i can get) you have 144Hz native, 72 and 36 adaptive.
TrackIR will pull at smooth at 120, 60 or 30 (30 being already to low for fast moving games/terrain). Setting your monitor at 120Hz refresh matches TrackIR when the FPS is also capped to one of those numbers.

The stutter is almost unnoticable when looking forward in the direction of the movement but when looking sideways, and certainly when things move fast, if the FPS doesn't match the TrackIR pull rate you have stutter. If you pause TrackIR, the stutter is gone, if you unpause it's there again. But some people don't notice this at all, some see i directly.

[mtpiperpilot]

Ok...here's the results. Sinch your harness...its gonna be as confusing as flying Iron Hand in a Cessna 172...

Here's what I did:

First, noticed that Gsync would not turn on in DCS. It works in other sims, but I dont get the "Gsync" compatible indicator flag. Hmm. Interesting. 

Part A:

Set refresh rate of monitor to 120 hz ->  no change in flicker behavior, FPS low (most of the time stuck at 48 fps, but bouncing to 60).

Set frame rate cap in NCP to 60 fps -> no change in flicker behavior, FPS low -> changed back to OFF/unlimited. 

Set refresh rate in NCP to Highest Available -> no change in flicker behavior, FPS low, but definitely not as smooth -> changed back to Application-controlled.

Turned on VSync in-sim. -> No change, but but stutter is worse. Tried the Alt-Enter trick, no change. -> Turned Vsync Off.

Thought a while...

Set Monitor Technology from G-sync to Fixed Refresh -> no change in flicker behavior, FPS low, definitely more stuttering

Part B:

Wanted to see if I could get back to "baseline" with this monitor as I had with the old monitor to confirm its a Gsync and/or refresh rate issue at hand.

Disabled Gsync completely, and set refresh rate to 60 hz. Returned all other settings in NCP and in sim to previous defaults.

Tested -> Had TERRIBLE frame rate (20-48) and extremely stuttery headtracker motion. What on earth....?

Thought a while more...

Returned settings to how they were before my Part B experiement. Re-enabled Gsync and set refresh rate to 120 Hz

Part C;

Confirmed I had Turned off Fullscreen Optimizations on EXE. Yes.

Turned off "Fullscreen" mode in-sim. -> Partial success! Maintaining 60+ FPS the majority of the time, but terrible screen tearing

Set VSync on in-sim and application controlled in NCP. Screen tearing gone, FPS back to 48-60, flickery head tracker motion back. Tried the Alt-Enter trick, no change.  -> Set Vsync off in-sim -> 60+ FPS back again, and no flicker with head tracker motion. 

Set VSync on in NCP -> same as above. Returned it to "Use the 3D application setting."

Set Monitor Technology in NCP to Gsync Compatible -> BINGO! 60+ FPS and fluid, clean headtracker motion! And...screen tearing gone with it off. So, Gsync isnt reporting it's working, but its doing something?

Noticed FPS still wants to go higher and bounce around a little, so set it to 60 FPS in NCP -> Even smoother motion!

Phew!!! Success.

Just out of curiousity, set refresh rate of monitor BACK to 144 Hz........and....its exactly the same. Fluid and perfect. 

Final settings that work:  Monitor technology to Gsync Compatible, Refresh rate to Application Controlled, Vsync to "use 3d application setting" in NCP and OFF in-sim, 60 FPS cap. It seems changing any of these will cause issues. And the refresh rate can be either 120 or 144, doesnt matter. 

What in the world...?

 

[mtpiperpilot]

Ok, I just realized I had Gsync only turned on for Fullscreen windows, and since I'm no longer running DCS fullscreen it stands to reason its NOT doing anything afterall?

So as a test I set Set Monitor Technology from Gsync Compatible to Fixed Refresh, and...indeed no change in behavior! So, despite my record keeping, I have no idea how I got here and why i'm not getting any screen tearing with Gsync not functional in DCS and Vsync turned off in-sim, and set to "Use 3d application setting" in NCP.

Huh? I'm so confused by this whole thing. When its set up how it was before the new monitor, it's terrible performance, and now its set up in a nonsensical way, but its got prefect performance. 

[Lange_666]

2 hours ago, mtpiperpilot said:

Final settings that work:  Monitor technology to Gsync Compatible, Refresh rate to Application Controlled, Vsync to "use 3d application setting" in NCP and OFF in-sim, 60 FPS cap. It seems changing any of these will cause issues. And the refresh rate can be either 120 or 144, doesnt matter. 

The refreshrate of the monitor only matters with VSync ON because then when the GPU is not able to maintain the capped FPS, it will adapt to the next lower value.
With 120Hz these values are 120/60/30/15 and these are in sync with TrackIR. On these values TrackIR is the smoothtest.
With 144Hz the values are 144/72/36/18. As long as you cap your frames to 60 "and then stay there" there is no problem. It will only give a TrackIR induced stutterproblem when it dives under the 60 meaning adaptive VSync will settle in on 36 which is not in sync with TrackIR.

[mtpiperpilot]

That helps me wrap my mind around it. Yes, its pretty constantly holding to 60fps (dips down into the mid 50s with mirrors on and down low in the Hornet, but still relatively smooth).

It really seems like Vsync was somehow behind the awful stuttery flickery headtracker motion which I dont understand. I dont think it was working properly - it was not only jittery, but frame rate was fluctuating pretty low and would get stuck at 48 fps. I also saw some screen tearing with it on, which makes no sense. As soon as I turned that off, everything improved. And I always used Vsync before with no problem. 

I'm still confused what's preventing screen tearing, now, that Vsync is off and Gsync is off. Whatever it is, it's working. I dont know if it's possible, but i'm starting to suspect that the GUI settings dont match what's actually set in the software. 

Edited December 15, 2021 by mtpiperpilot

[Bossco82]

HI mtpiperpilot,

I had exactly the same problem as your having but with my AMD 6800xt and Radeon software paired with a proper Freesync monitor. Took me days to work it out. In the end in the sub menu of Radeon I found a seting called "frame rate target control", its can be set at any number. However, disabling V-sync in DCS and enabling this "FRTC" in Radeon and setting it to 60fps got rid of any Track IR tearing and now its butter smooth again.

Like you I had gone from a fixed 60hz monitor where I had to use V-sync and upgraded to a Freesync monitor. For the first couple of days it was like going backwards until I found that one setting in Radeon. 

I know this is about AMD Freesync not Nvidia and Gsync but its was just to share that finding that one setting configuration can be a night and day moment.

[mtpiperpilot]

Thanks for that encouragment, Bossco82! I really do have mixed feelings at this point. MSFS2020 is indeed much smoother with Gsync, but DCS seems to be thrown into random chaos and that is eating at me. Before this monitor, I knew I could always count on DCS to be pretty much rock-solid. I've never had such wierd stuff happen. I have a few days left to return my new monitor, so I'm thinking hard. I'm not sure, overall, its worth keeping. Crazy to think a decade+ old smaller monitor handles things better and more predictably. I'll try some more things tonight and probably make a decision. 

Edited December 15, 2021 by mtpiperpilot

[Bossco82]

When I was going through a similar problem I had rock solid performance on an old 1080p Sony TV locked at 60hz with an old HDMi cable than my new 1440p freesync gaming monitor and a brand new fancy DP or HDMi cable. I was literally pulling my hair out, I had all the latest kit and it wouldn't work.

One setting in Radeon was the key, the moment I turned it on, no problems just a little tweaking.

Its only my two cents but try this....

Turn on Freesync in the monitors settings, if you have a response time setting set it to the middle one. Mine an "LG" has normal, fast and faster or OFF. I set mine to fast for my system.

In Nvidia control panel, turn on VRR technology, Then in the settings for DCS set a frame cap of 60. There is a setting in that list somewhere but I have not had Nvidia since June. So I cant check for you.

In Windows graphic settings make sure VRR is enabled.

In DCS turn off Vsync.

Download and install MSI Afterburner, set the overlay to check Framerate and Frame time. 60fps should have a frametime of 16ms.

Run an instant action freeflight mission and just check if both the frametime 16ms and the framerate 60fps are correct.

Im having to guess some of this because its Nvidia and I have Radeon right now. This was the checklist I made a note of in case mine went funny again. The best scenario I have found for myself is this. Leave the monitor in VRR. Leave Windows in VRR. Set your GPU's controlling software to cap at 60. Leave your games Vsync = off then let Track IR run in the backdround. This is the best way to get a stutter free Track IR experience while using a VRR monitor. 

Some might say why cap to 60fps instead of lock it to Vsync. If you have a fps dip with Vsync it will halve to 30fps all of a sudden. With the VRR enabled its simply not as noticeable if you have a dip to say 48fps for a few seconds. Running a 60fps cap for me eliminates any tearing when panning the view, that is what I found personally.

One final thing. On the Track IR window in the top left is a spanner icon. Click that and try setting, "Automatically minimize ON Track IR Enhanced Title Launch". I have better Track IR performance with this NOT enabled.

Best of luck mate, if I can help any further feel free to reply to this or PM me.

[mtpiperpilot]

Thank you again, Bossco82! I'll try to sit down with this fresh approach either tonight or tomorrow and hopefully get this figured out. It might be good for me to wipe all my other graphics settings out and start from default again too. I'll try to check back in and report how it goes!

[mtpiperpilot]

Well, I spent several hours today messing around with settings and I was able to improve it slightly but I still get more stutters than I had with my old monitor, sadly.

A few notes:

-Gysnc just will not enable in DCS. It works in MSFS2020. 

-Locked FPS to 60 in NCP. Vsync off.

-Originally I had VRR turned off in Windows 10 settings. I turned it on and rebooted, and noticed no change in behavior at all. Turned it off, and still seemed the same. For some reason, I dont think this setting does anything.

-Running at 144 Hz and it seems my framerate is slightly smoother and more stable. Running at 120 Hz (actually, my Asus monitor doesnt have 120 as an option, just 119.982Hz - why is that?) and panning with track IR is pretty smooth most of the time, but the overall framerate seems more choppy and I get more micro-pauses. I'm sticking with 120 for now.

-I've noticed a huge stuttery mess that lasts a second or two (significant frame-rate drop?) occasionally, mostly over Nevada, downtown Las Vegas or when taking off from Nellis. Strangely the in-sim FPS counter doesnt indicate anything like this. Stays in the 55-60fps range. 

I've also noticed my display is actually loose in the case in my brand new monitor. The same thing this guy has: 

The Asus rep says to return it. But I've also read where others had this too so I dont know if it's truly a defect or poor design. 

Ah...so frustrating. I thought I would dramatically improve my performance with this screen as it does in MSFS2020, but in DCS it's been nothing but a fiddly nightmare. 

[Lange_666]

41 minutes ago, mtpiperpilot said:

-Running at 144 Hz and it seems my framerate is slightly smoother and more stable. Running at 120 Hz (actually, my Asus monitor doesnt have 120 as an option, just 119.982Hz - why is that?) and panning with track IR is pretty smooth most of the time, but the overall framerate seems more choppy and I get more micro-pauses. I'm sticking with 120 for now.

That's 120Hz alright. My old old monitor showed 59,9 instead of 60Hz. 120Hz is just a rounded value.

 

41 minutes ago, mtpiperpilot said:

-I've noticed a huge stuttery mess that lasts a second or two (significant frame-rate drop?) occasionally, mostly over Nevada, downtown Las Vegas or when taking off from Nellis. Strangely the in-sim FPS counter doesnt indicate anything like this. Stays in the 55-60fps range. 

Set your DCS graphics settings so that your FPS stays above 60 "all the time". You will still see stutter when it dips below.
You need to have a bit of overhead all the time for the cap to work.

 

Also, imho, VSync should be turned on if you say that GSync doesn't work.

Edited December 17, 2021 by Lange_666

[mtpiperpilot]

Glad to know the 119.xxx is the same as 120 and not indicative of an issue.

I'll work to lower a few settings to help it stay above 60fps. Whats strange to me is before I started using this new monitor, I never had fps issues or stutter. It almost always was above 60fps. They're both HD (1920-1080) and the only difference is the Freesync/Gsync and 120 Hz (DP) vs 60 Hz (HDMI). I've tried using HDMI (and losing Gync capability) but there's no change in the stutters in DCS. 

Vsync behavior is also confusing to me. As I said, Gsync does no give the "GSYNC" green flag in DCS, so I assume it's not working. But if I turn off Gsync Capability in NCP, or set Maximum Refresh to Fixed Refresh, I dont see much different except I get screen tearing. So it must be doing something? If I then turn on Vsync in NCP or in-sim, I get way worse stutters and low FPS. 

Here are my current settings. Is there anything that stands out as an issue?

Edited December 17, 2021 by mtpiperpilot

[Bossco82]

Hello mate,

Something to help with finding problem with "hardware" like your monitor. If its working for one game and not in another. You problem is a setting in the "software"

Since this is seems to be a DCS specific problem and if your running a max frame rate cap of 60fps in the NVCP. You need to check that is actually being produced in DCS itself.

So check another game you play regularly and see if your hardware is working, if it is then tick a box. Its not the hardware.

So if its software check DCS is performing at a framerate of 60fps and a frametime of 16ms. This is the amount you need to not get the stutters your reporting with Track IR. Download and install MSI Afterburner, it comes with Rivatuner. In Rivatuner check the boxes in the settings to select your CPU/GPU/Dram and framerate and frametime in the overlay display.

After that go in to DCS and check these values in game. FPS counters can still report 60fps while your frametime can be just outside 16ms, causing stutter. If something like your GPU usage is at 95+% that could also be the problem. Looking at your settings for DCS thats about on the limit of what a RTX 2060 can cope with even at 1080p. What gave me the clue is your reporting the problem is over downtown Vegas and on the runway at Nellis, populated areas. DCS has had a few updates that has effected performance lately. You couls also try shadows on low, they are real fps killers. I have a AMD 6800xt, no slouch and I use shadows on low.

Seriously though try MSI Afterburner to properly check in game performance, really helps for problem solving. 

You may be finding a compatibility issue with Gsync as its being used with a Freesync monitor. If you numbers in DCS are 60fps with a 16ms frametime, then it could be that.

[Lange_666]

11 hours ago, mtpiperpilot said:

As I said, Gsync does no give the "GSYNC" green flag in DCS, so I assume it's not working.

 

 

 

- Where do you see (or don't in this case) that "green flag" for DCS?

- What happens if you turn off Variable Refresh Rate?

- DCS Full Screen mode changed with the introduction of 2.7 and it went to Windows Borderless Mode instead.

  I would suggest trying GSync for both windowed and full screen mode and see if that makes a difference.

[mtpiperpilot]

Well, update - Asus and the store recommend I return this VG279Q because of the loose frame/bezel. So, it's packed up and will be headed back tomorrow. Bummer. 

Before I packed it up, I was able to test the Gsync for windowed and full screen mode, and it still did not show that Gsync was working.

But, now I'm not sure what to do.

The store gave me an option of replacing the monitor I'm returning with the same unit, or, a LG 27GN650-B, a similar but Gsync Certified unit. https://www.rtings.com/monitor/reviews/lg/27gn650-b

I like what I'm seeing about it and the Gsync Certification, the only negative being the peak brightness (but I dont fly in a bright room anyway). The only concern is that stand! It seems to be enormous, whereas the VG279Q seemed to fit perfectly in the available desk space. The above Rtings review shows the LG stand is 12" deep and 17" wide. It would have to hang off the back of my desk about 2 inches to even get the screen close to where it should be. There arent any near me in stores where I can go look at it.

That got me thinking...should I just bite the bullet and get the Gsync certified version of the Asus model? It's the VG279QM. It's about $100 more ($349), mostly because of also being 240 Hz, which is irrelevant to me and the games/sims I use. Just cause its 240 Hz native, if I use it at 120Hz, there should be no obvious downside, right? But the stand/mount is the same as the VG279Q, and it's perfect and Gsync certification and a 5 year newer model are potential benefits. https://www.rtings.com/monitor/reviews/asus/vg279qm

Or,do I just have them replace it with the same non Gsync certified unit and make do with it's limitations?

[mtpiperpilot]

Hi Lange_666 and Bossco 82,

Actually, I think I just found a great middle ground. The Asus VG279QR. https://www.asus.com/us/Displays-Desktops/Monitors/TUF-Gaming/TUF-GAMING-VG279QR/

Cant find many reviews but the ones I've found are positive. From the specs it looks to have a Gsync Certified IPS Full HD screen, the stand I like (that I know fits on my desk), with the only negatives being a dimmer display (300cd/m2 instead of 400), closer in spec to the LG one mentioned above. Since I dont need the brightness, should be fine. It's 165 Hz native, but I'm guessing it'll have 120 as an option, too. 

I think this is the one I'm going to go with. Any red flags I'm missing?

[Bossco82]

Hi Mate,

Ok I have not used a proper G-sync monitor in years, I had an Acer when they first came out and it worked flawlessly, I remember it still looking smooth down to about 50fps. If it helps I am using a LG 1440p freesync monitor now, its a LG32QN600,its very good and the image quality, brightness and the Freesync is great for me. My rig is pretty much built for DCS though so I stick to 60fps. I think mine has a Freesync range of 48-75hz. 

As for your monitor stand, I have a similar problem with my desk but I use a monitor arm, its an Invision MX450 for up to 12kg, holds the monitor perfectly, the mobility of it means you can bring the monitor to you when flying. The cable management is a plus too.

Finally if the store you bought it from is asking you to return it, you are probably doing the right thing. What you buy should be working correctly and not be loose in the frame/casing. Just think if you wanted to change your setup. If there is something wrong with the one you have you might struggle to sell it on in the future. Best of luck getting it all right.

[Lange_666]

@mtpiperpilot: Tip:

 

[mtpiperpilot]

@Bossco82, yes, returning was the right thing to do, but just frustrating. Thats an interesting idea about the monitor arm - I use them at work but never even thought about getting one for home. 

Thanks @Lange_666!

I'll check this out once my new monitor comes in.

I really appreciate the help! 

[Bossco82]

If you do get a monitor arm, get one rated for 10-12kg, I got one rated for about 8kg at first but soon replaced it. Really sorts out any desk space problems.