Flat Terrain Shadows rendered in addition to Default Shadows on "Default" settings (Pt2)

[Boosterdog]

A few weeks back I noticed that the TV tower object rendered both the flat and default shadows. This appeared to be a "edge" scenario invloving 1 object. 

Today, whilst setting up some tests for something else, I have again found flat shadows being rendered in the default terrain shadows setting. This time the shadows are cast by the trees within the map not a user placed object.

Again this is an "edge" case on the face of it, the terrrain on which the trees are located needs to fall away steeply on the oppposite side to the direction of sunlight. However my assumption is that regardless of this factor, the calculation must still be being made which may affect performance.

Regardless of performance, if you enjoy valley flights in the Caucuses, its a nasty immersion breaking effect that thumbs its nose at the performance hit you are taking from running in default in the first instance. 

FXO and Meta2 cleared. Files attatched including the Miz should anyone wish to play about with the time of day to maximise the effect.

@Flappie sorry my friend but as the most interactive and visiable ED tester in the forum could I trouble you to take a look? 

FPS test Cau.miz DxDiag 151221.txt Shadow Fault 2.7.8

Edited December 15, 2021 by Boosterdog

[Boosterdog]

Anyone? Is i my rig? Is it a bug, is just another example of the poor shadow redening the game? 

I cant recall seeing this in 2.5 but it could quite simply be that those gadawful low rez "things" get drawn where the angle of view is within a perameter and the game "thinks" there is solid ground, even if the gound is acually a hill in the distance. 

I wish they could be done away with as they serve little purpose other than to diminish the image. 

[Flappie]

I was able to replicate your tree shadow issue. I've not reported it yet because I want to make sure this is a core issue, not only a local Caucasus issue.

If you have other examples, especially with over terrains, please attach more tracks.

[Boosterdog]

17 hours ago, Flappie said:

I was able to replicate your tree shadow issue. I've not reported it yet because I want to make sure this is a core issue, not only a local Caucasus issue.

If you have other examples, especially with over terrains, please attach more tracks.

Thanks Flappie - Ill have a look today - Ive only ever noticed it on causcaus but thats largely down to the terrain lending itself to the effect. If you or anyone knows of any steep sided areas on other maps that also have trees Id be happy to give it a look. 

[Flappie]

I think the steepest region there is in DCS at the moment, apart from Caucasus, is the big ridge north of Cyprus, but I'm not 100% sure there are trees there. I'm away from my PC this weekend by the way.

[Boosterdog]

On 12/18/2021 at 11:04 AM, Flappie said:

I think the steepest region there is in DCS at the moment, apart from Caucasus, is the big ridge north of Cyprus, but I'm not 100% sure there are trees there. I'm away from my PC this weekend by the way.

The PG is a needle in a haystack but in Syria the same is present. Its a lot more subtle and there are fewer areas affected but its present. So perhaps a Core issue?

Attached is a miz file and a track file along with an image of where to look within the trk file. Please take some time to look carefully as its not immediately apparent but is present in the last few seconds after the camera is zoomed out. Certainly less of an issue in the sandy maps. It appears that the shadows will definately manifest if viewed from an flat angle in comparisioan to the plain and if there is scenery behind it (possibly not water or sky).

Thanks

 

Syr Shadows.trk Syria shadows test.miz

Edited December 19, 2021 by Boosterdog

[Flappie]

Many thanks for your tests.  I'll take a look.

[Boosterdog]

4 hours ago, Flappie said:

Many thanks for your tests.  I'll take a look.

No worries

Heres another Syria Miz and track. This better demonstrates where the flat shadows pop out. They are much more obvious in this than the previous. Again anthoer screenshot to show you where to look.  This is clearly not a new bug. Its present in my 2.7.6 version also. Pre 2.7.7 when fewer files were encoded, the Flat shadow removal mod may have come in useful although Im not sure if that removed everything else externally to.If its a limit of the engine then its a limit however the fact that these things do disappear as the camera appraoches them would give me hope that they can be manipulated to reduce or stop the issue. 

syr 2 shadows.miz Syr2 Shadows.trk

[Boosterdog]

@FlappieSorry to pester. Has this been reported? 

[Flappie]

No, not yet. It is in my todo-list, don't worry.

[Boosterdog]

13 minutes ago, Flappie said:

No, not yet. It is in my todo-list, don't worry.

Cheers Flappie. Sorry. 

[Boosterdog]

@Flappie Sorry but whilst you are checking this you may want to note that its become much worse in the new (23/12) OB patch. The flat shadows remain visible for much longer as the camera view approaches them than in previous builds. The effect is such that you are now almost on top of them (or below them in a valley) before they disappear and the more advanced renders take form. 

The second trk file I submitted used a little zoom to demonstrate where the flats poppped in and out in the previous builds. Run the same track in the new OB and they remain at all times. 

MiZ attached previously can be used to better look around where you will note flat shadows being rendered off the cliffs immedately above the tank. 

In the Caucaus Miz attatched to the first post you wll see the flat shadows on the left hand bank immediately before the dam remain present until the aircraft is almost directly over them if you place the camera behind the aircraft.  

 

Thanks

Edited December 25, 2021 by Boosterdog

[Boosterdog]

A screenshot to demonstrate the above. What it doesnt show is the awful flickering effect these things create, not only when hanging over an edge but everywhere. It would be great to have an option to remove these. I really cant what benefit on their continued existence even brings to DCS TBH. 

 

 

[Boosterdog]

@Flappie Happy New Year

 

Sorry to ask but did this ever go anywhere ?

[Flappie]

Happy New Year to you.

I will report it, in time. I have bigger fishes to fry on my todo-list at the moment. Lots of AI stuff, which can be far more annoying than floating shadows. It's not forgotten, don't worry.

[Boosterdog]

2 hours ago, Flappie said:

Happy New Year to you.

I will report it, in time. I have bigger fishes to fry on my todo-list at the moment. Lots of AI stuff, which can be far more annoying than floating shadows. It's not forgotten, don't worry.

Ill leave you to your big fishes but even Sardines play an improtant role in the food chain.

[Boosterdog]

Hi. Put this in nearly 5 months ago. The issue persists. Given the glacial times a small team like ED is forced to work to I wouldnt expect a fix in that time but some acknowledgment of the issue would have been nice (even an admission of it being an unfixable factor of the poor shadow tech in the game). Given OB is supposed to be about is a two way mass beta test, Id have though it simply a matter of manners for ED to acknowledge something, especially when someone has gone to the trouble of providing what is asked for. Clearly not. 

The low res long range shadows are garbage. They flicker, dont conform to the ground and create a more jarring glitch when the more detailed shadows draw by being there.  On the higher shadow settings, they offer nothing and only detract from the scene. They are especially irratating given the money one has to spend on a system capable of turning up the graphics even to modest levels in the first place. 

For now any option to do away with them for those of us not hacking back the graphics to atari levels for sake of "realistic" VR would be most welcome. 

Long term, some scraps from the ED top table that there are plans for shadows would suffice. 

@Flappie Not a dig at you and the sterling work you do on the forum. Bugs and issues should be for ED to acknowedge and address though, not just an active, helpful and knowedgable volunteer such as yourself. . The amount of threads left uncommented and umarked accross the bugs forum is quite dissappointing given the effort many make to provide the info as requested. 

[draconus]

Isn't it simply by design with default shadows setting that depending on the distance to object it is rendered from closest to furthest like this:

 - object with full shadow

 - object with flat shadow

 - object without shadow

 - object not rendered

?

I have not done any tests yet myself.

Edited April 7, 2022 by draconus

[Boosterdog]

1 hour ago, draconus said:

Isn't it simply by design with default shadows setting that depending on the distance to object it is rendered from closest to furthest like this:

 - object with full shadow

 - object with flat shadow

 - object without shadow

 - object not rendered

?

I have not done any tests yet myself.

 

I suspect it is "as is" but that doesnt make it right. The flat shadows are just that - flat and dumb, scratched across the lanscape at right angles like someones gone ape with a magic marker. But more than that they are drawn seemingly whereever there is landscape also drawn behind them (ie a distant hill or mountain and so hang off steep sides like ugly spring boards.  Not an issue at 20K but not great at the low levels a helo or mudpusher is used at.

They shimmer and loiter far too long as one approaches with a jarring transition to higher quality shadows that powerpoint would be proud of. 

They are also opaque - too opaque. Their effect could be considerably lessened if they were made somewhat more transparent or even several shades lighter.