Unreal Engine 5

[BiBa]

The final frontier to reality in simulation has finally been reached!

Unreal Engine uses new technology in real time rendering.

No more limits to Polygons in a scene.

UNREAL ENGINE 5

Edited December 15, 2021 by BiBa

[Vakarian]

You do realize that the graphics play such a minor role in a simulator, right? I mean, would you rather have a little rough around the edge models with near 1:1 FM, or blyatiful models, but FM like press up, go up?

[Sr.]

DCS Vulkan adaptation crew...

 

 

[MiG21bisFishbedL]

Cool story, bro.

[BIGNEWY]

59 minutes ago, BiBa said:

The final frontier to reality in simulation has finally been reached!

Unreal Engine uses new technology in real time rendering.

No more limits to Polygons in a scene.

UNREAL ENGINE 5

 

yeah looks impressive, but not related to DCS, moved to chit chat

thanks

[Mr_sukebe]

Probably worth looking at the Unreal site, that states that U5 was designed for map sizes upto 21kmsq.  Above that, they said that it “should work”, but would probably need some real work.  Imagine trying to port that into a flight sim.

Here's a link with more info:

https://www.techarthub.com/what-is-the-maximum-size-of-an-unreal-engine-5-map/

Edited December 15, 2021 by Mr_sukebe

[BiBa]

For those who do have less knowledge in real time rendering:

embedding Unreal Engine 5 in the DCS engine means higher setting in display resolution, which is essential for an 8K-VR AND at the same time more gain in FPS! With my high PC-Specs I still get between 30-40 FPS in my Pimax 4K, because without having a high resolution setting, you can merely depict any target on the ground from far distance. 

Pimax has just annouced a 12K-VR for next year. To get the most out of it, DCS Engine will surely need that upgrade...

[MiG21bisFishbedL]

I, somehow, doubt that major engine changes like this are even in the proverbial deck let alone in the cards that are at hand.

[Mars Exulte]

You have literally taken a sales brochure, read it, and said ''Wow, all these fantastic things must be 100% true and applicable to every scenario imaginable!''

3 hours ago, BiBa said:

means higher setting in display resolution

  It MIGHT mean that

3 hours ago, BiBa said:

AND at the same time more gain in FPS!

  MAYBE

 

 

Tldr

Do you know anything about cars? Do you think you can simply take a Toyota Corolla and drop a 500hp V8 in it and it will turn it into a sports car? No, you also need to change the intake, exhaust, suspension, strengthen the frame, install a turbo or supercharger, adjust fuel air ratios, get wider soft compound tires, new transmission, major structural modifications to allow for all the above.

No, you cannot simply ''drag and drop'' a new game engine and expect to get anything from it. It would mean throwing everything they have now, and everything they've done for Vulkan, in the trash and starting over with a new project that would take years to complete... and by then somebody will have released a new brochure with flashy language and you'll be writing this post again.

[BiBa]

8 hours ago, Mars Exulte said:

You have literally taken a sales brochure, read it, and said ''Wow, all these fantastic things must be 100% true and applicable to every scenario imaginable!''...

Talking about car parts is a bad comparison when setting Hardware and Software alterations properties in the same Workshop for facelifting. To some extent, I agree that building something new is better than trying to refurbish and update a whole system, expanding it to a wider more sophisticated level... As to what is feasible or not - I used to do the repairing of most car parts myself, but I am not a mechanic by profession as much as I am no IT expert too. But, I worked with developers in programming my own game invention, therefore I know exactly where the problem areas are. 

Instead of a YouTube Video Link, I ought to have linked it directly to the Unreal Engine 5 Site. 

If the Nanite theme which streams and processes only the detail you can perceive, largely removing poly count and draw call constraints, and eliminating time-consuming work like baking details to normal maps - is exaggerated - time will tell...

Quoting Unreal Engine 5 build "is for game developers who like to live on the bleeding edge to start testing features and prototyping their next games" is a tool for developers yet to be tested and checked how far embedding it is compatible with the DCS Engine... Finally, the ED IT department is the one who calls the shots and makes the right decisions in the interest of DCS.

[BiBa]

16 hours ago, Mr_sukebe said:

... https://www.techarthub.com/what-is-the-maximum-size-of-an-unreal-engine-5-map/

 

Good Info

[MiG21bisFishbedL]

3 hours ago, BiBa said:

Finally, the ED IT department is the one who calls the shots and makes the right decisions in the interest of DCS.

And, that won't include an upgrade to UE5.

[Mars Exulte]

5 hours ago, BiBa said:

I am not a mechanic by profession as much as I am no IT expert too. But, I worked with developers in programming my own game invention, therefore I know exactly where the problem areas are. 

  @@ Obviously not

5 hours ago, BiBa said:

Instead of a YouTube Video Link, I ought to have linked it directly to the Unreal Engine 5 Site. 

  Yes, linking directly to the sales brochure will surely bolster your argument @@

5 hours ago, BiBa said:

If the Nanite theme which streams and processes only the detail you can perceive

  If by that you mean only rendering what's in your field of view and unobstructed by other objects, that's been a thing for a LOOOOONG time now.

5 hours ago, BiBa said:

Quoting Unreal Engine 5 build "is for game developers who like to live on the bleeding edge to start testing features and prototyping their next games"

  A company trying to sell a product speaks about said product in glowing terms. I never saw it coming!

5 hours ago, BiBa said:

Finally, the ED IT department is the one who calls the shots and makes the right decisions in the interest of DCS.

  Yeah, they did when they wrote their own engine and started porting it to the Vulkan API.

[BiBa]

2 hours ago, MiG21bisFishbedL said:

And, that won't include an upgrade to UE5.

If that's a Prophecy, I won't say amen to that because I'm confident ED is evolving in the best interest to make DCS a better place for flying... So it's not about guessing if the Oracle will overdue the Matrix, but shier if UE5 keeps what it is promising for.

Edited December 16, 2021 by BiBa

[BiBa]

45 minutes ago, Mars Exulte said:

  @@ Obviously not

  Yes, linking directly to the sales brochure will surely bolster your argument @@

  If by that you mean only rendering what's in your field of view and unobstructed by other objects, that's been a thing for a LOOOOONG time now.

  A company trying to sell a product speaks about said product in glowing terms. I never saw it coming!

  Yeah, they did when they wrote their own engine and started porting it to the Vulkan API.

If an IT programmer is lektionning, I will advocate for more pragmatically applied evidence to back up these arguments, otherwise we're just keep on randomally stalling in love of contradiction, because that's the name of the game: a trolling redundant mechanism in the system for the sole purpose of own self-preservation...

[Eugel]

On 12/16/2021 at 3:11 AM, BiBa said:

embedding Unreal Engine 5 in the DCS engine means higher setting in display resolution, which is essential for an 8K-VR AND at the same time more gain in FPS!

You know that how ? What VR games using the Unreal Engine 5 have you played ? 
The biggest selling points of the UE5, "Lumen" and "Nanite", are not supported in VR and the Unreal engine has neglected VR support in the past.

No doubt, UE5 looks quite impressive in the demos and on paper, but switching a game like DCS to a completely new engine is no small feat. That would involve years of work from the developers with no direct sales attached to it. 

So for now, UE5 solving any or all VR problems for DCS is just wishful thinking.

Edited December 17, 2021 by Eugel

[BiBa]

2 hours ago, Eugel said:

...The biggest selling points of the UE5, "Lumen" and "Nanite", are not supported in VR and the Unreal engine has neglected VR support in the past...

Wooo, that's definitely bad news! Didn't know that. Neglecting VR support is a wrong policy. Seems like I have to withdraw my UE5 recommendation to the bench until they reconsider focusing on VR. Till then, to be held on standby...

 

[LucShep]

9 hours ago, Eugel said:

You know that how ? What VR games using the Unreal Engine 5 have you played ? 
The biggest selling points of the UE5, "Lumen" and "Nanite", are not supported in VR and the Unreal engine has neglected VR support in the past.

No doubt, UE5 looks quite impressive in the demos and on paper, but switching a game like DCS to a completely new engine is no small feat. That would involve years of work from the developers with no direct sales attached to it. 

So for now, UE5 solving any or all VR problems for DCS is just wishful thinking.

 

It's not like UE4 and UE5 can't be used with great effect for a flight-sim, and with VR.
Just check NOR by Meta Immersive Synthetics (flight simulation, currently for military purposes), for which VR use (and with Varjo XR3!) is actually one of its purposes:

https://www.unrealengine.com/en-US/spotlights/affordable-aviation-training-in-a-compact-package-at-i-itsec-2021 

It is possible to use UE5, and I'm fully convinced that it would be far better than what we have today in DCS (also for VR), no contest. 
ED just prefers to continue evolving what they have and know, which is very understandable.
The problem is, I guess, how the whole complicated process and investment (monetary, timing and personnel wise) would have to occur. We can't blame them for sticking with it.

 

Edited December 17, 2021 by LucShep

[SkateZilla]

AS a stargate fan,

anything using the word Nanites typically leads to bad things.. 

[MiG21bisFishbedL]

On 12/16/2021 at 1:48 PM, BiBa said:

If that's a Prophecy, I won't say amen to that because I'm confident ED is evolving in the best interest to make DCS a better place for flying... So it's not about guessing if the Oracle will overdue the Matrix, but shier if UE5 keeps what it is promising for.

 

They will.

And UE5 isn't included in that. There's advantages to developing your own engine.

[BiBa]

...just due to the fact UE has been neglecting VR support, I've already put this thing on ice...

On 12/17/2021 at 8:01 PM, LucShep said:

It's not like UE4 and UE5 can't be used with great effect for a flight-sim, and with VR.
Just check NOR by Meta Immersive Synthetics (flight simulation, currently for military purposes), for which VR use (and with Varjo XR3!) is actually one of its purposes:

https://www.unrealengine.com/en-US/spotlights/affordable-aviation-training-in-a-compact-package-at-i-itsec-2021 ...

Nevertheless LucShep Link is worth to see!

Edited December 18, 2021 by BiBa

[Taz1004]

On 12/17/2021 at 2:01 PM, LucShep said:

It's not like UE4 and UE5 can't be used with great effect for a flight-sim, and with VR.
Just check NOR by Meta Immersive Synthetics (flight simulation, currently for military purposes), for which VR use (and with Varjo XR3!) is actually one of its purposes:

https://www.unrealengine.com/en-US/spotlights/affordable-aviation-training-in-a-compact-package-at-i-itsec-2021 

It is possible to use UE5, and I'm fully convinced that it would be far better than what we have today in DCS (also for VR), no contest. 
ED just prefers to continue evolving what they have and know, which is very understandable.
The problem is, I guess, how the whole complicated process and investment (monetary, timing and personnel wise) would have to occur. We can't blame them for sticking with it.

UE5 cannot be used for DCS because the ever changing nature of DCS.  Unreal is for games that release and be done with.  Even updating UE4 project from older to newer version of UE4 was pain.  Updating a project from UE4 to UE5 is almost like starting over.  And major version update for Unreal happens every 8 years or so.

Business model of DCS is both its strength and weakness.  Continuing to support old modules means you can't start fresh like Unreal Engine can.  You still see remnants of ancient DCS code in the game today.  And it gets harder and harder to update the engine as the game gets bigger with more modules.  And it has to keep getting bigger to make profit and keep it going.

And then there's performance side with UE5.  All those beautiful graphics comes at a cost.  You most certainly need RTX series for Lumen and Nanite.

Edited December 19, 2021 by Taz1004

[Eugel]

On 12/17/2021 at 8:01 PM, LucShep said:

It is possible to use UE5, and I'm fully convinced that it would be far better than what we have today in DCS (also for VR), no contest. 

I would actually agree on that. IF the game/sim is build from ground up with that engine, as this thing from MIS is. But converting DCS to a completely different engine, with all the modules, assets, mods, etc. is simply unreasonable as it wouldn´t generate any or much income.

Also, besides some pretty pictures and promotional videos, not much is known about MIS new sim. Will it even be availabe for consumer hardware/software ? Will it cost 10 times as much as DCS ?

A few years back, many people in the sim racing community were sceptical when "Assetto Corsa Competizione" was announced to use UE4, like "what, a serious simulation with the Unreal engine ??"
And it had/has? terrible performance in VR compared to other sims and at least in the beginning had a lot of other VR related problems as well (haven´t played it in a while, so can´t say how the current status is)

[Lurker]

Project NOR is NOT a commercial sim. It is meant to replace expensive professional manufacturer built fighter simulators, with a low cost software and off-the-shelf components solution. This means that while it may at some point enter the commercial simulator field, at this point it is marketed exclusively towards military contractors. Don't wait up for this one boys. 

Edited December 21, 2021 by Lurker

[BiBa]

14 hours ago, Lurker said:

Project NOR is NOT a commercial sim. It is meant to replace expensive professional manufacturer built fighter simulators, with a low cost software and off-the-shelf components solution. This means that while it may at some point enter the commercial simulator field, at this point it is marketed exclusively towards military contractors. Don't wait up for this one boys. 

 

Intriguing stuff indeed!

Here's a good Flight Sim News article about the NOR platform.

Also Jabbers' Video "WHAT I KNOW ... and don't know | Meta Immersive Synthetics | The NOR Platform Preview" summarises it well.

Edited December 21, 2021 by BiBa