How much of a difference does having a high quality hotas make when trying to do air to air refueling?

[Tree_Beard]

Like is it night and day, or just a little bit easier? 

[GrEaSeLiTeNiN]

Speaking only from my own experience, from TFlight HotasX to a Warthog, I tried AAR a couple of times for the first time and couldn't do it properly. Warthog may not be a good example as the stick is quite stiff. Not sure about VKBs and Virpils. It's probably more a skills thing. From what I read, VR gives the best advantage due to better depth perception.

[Nealius]

Depends.

On my X52 I didn't have any real issues plugging up in the Hornet. When I upgraded to the Warthog, I couldn't refuel at all because the spring was too stiff and precision too low for me to make the necessary micro-adjustments. Once I put my Warthog on a 20cm extension it became ridiculously easy. 

[lmp]

I guess it depends on how low quality the HOTAS you're moving up from was. You need to be able to do very fine pitch, roll and throttle corrections. If you have jittery pots or a worn out gimbal, that'll be a problem. If you use the little slider with 3cm of very rough travel on the base of your joystick for throttle control, that'll suck too. And obviously what you use for rudders doesn't matter, you won't be needing them for this maneuver.

 

I learned to AAR only after I got a Virpil HOTAS, but how much difference did it really make? No idea, maybe it just invalidated my excuse. I still had to put in the work, it didn't magically become easy, and it's very much a perishable skill. If I don't practice regularly, my AARs become sloppy.

[Bailey]

Words like “high quality” mean different things for different people. I have intentionally tested the title subject in the past. My conclusion is that more expensive hardware makes AAR easier due to accuracy of the sensors and the mechanics of the stick sweet spot for AAR. Of course, there is a financial limit. Just know that if you are buying a cheaper stick that it’s likely harder to make precision adjustments compared to the more expensive stick. I wouldn’t buy/avoid a stick solely due to AAR reasons. You can AAR on a Logi3D or on a controller. It just may take more time, patience, and practice.  

[TheCoyoteHunter]

I learned to refuel with a TM 160000, using the little slider for a throttle. I then built me a throttle controller which has 5.8 inches in the throttle axis. I found it much easier with more movement in the throttle. As far as the joystick, I have no problems with the TM 160000.

If I can leave you with 1 tip... when you are in the beginning of your learning faze, keep moving the throttle forwards and backwards constantly (not all the way but...). You will soon learn subconsciously how long it takes for your input to actually happen. The up-down & left-right happens instantly, but the forwards-backwards is delayed.

[Dangerzone]

Like others have mentioned - it depends on what from, and then to what?

I've gone from Logitech 3D pro - to Logitech X56, then to Virpil CM3 with VKB MCG for the stick.

From the 3D to the current VKB/Virpil setup - yes... it is night and day. That doesn't mean that you will magically be able to do it easy - but there is definitely a significant advantages to having the right gear. 

Think about it like trying to hit a baseball with a broom handle, and then a proper baseball bat. Night and day - however - even so - just because you have the right gear doesn't mean that you're going to be able to hit that ball right up - you still need practise and skill. (Thus a skilled person can probably still hit a baseball with a broom handle better than I with no experience could with a proper baseball bat) - but the right tools definitely help.

For AAR - constant micro movements is what gives for a smooth AAR experience - and the more accurate a HOTAS is, plus the more travel it has (to give you that accuracy) - the easier the experience will be. 

FWIW - The X56 was the biggest waste of money I've ever spent. Too much deadzone in the stick, ghost signals, etc - it's anything but a 'quality' controller - and even though I could AAR with the X56 - moving to 'quality' HOTAS was definitely worth it for me.

What also helps with AAR is to stop trying to AAR. Start flying formation, and get closer and learn to stay in formation. Huge progress for me when I started doing this instead of chasing the basket. 

 

[Shimmergloom667]

I've seen people refuel flying with keyboard and mouse. I personally went from X56 to VKB. It's only a little bit easier, honestly.

[MARLAN_]

High quality equipment is a huge difference in the level of precision you can obtain, however you need to be skilled already to take advantage of that increased precision.

So that means, yes, definitely, better equipment is absolutely a big deal, but until you have the skill to utilize the higher precision it won't magically make you good at flying.

[Mr_sukebe]

I started with a CH Fighterstick, and really struggled with re-fuelling.  

Moved to a Virpil T50 base and that definitely helped.  Added a 20cm extension so I could centre mount the T50 and that helped even more.

[ShaunX]

There's also a little autopilot trick with the Hornet which helps a lot

When you're getting close after pre-contact, press either the BALT or ATTH A/P button, then immediately press it again. The second press disengages the attitude or altitude hold part of the A/P, but not the A/P's damping effect (that is only cancelled when you press the A/P disengage paddle or break it with a large stick movement). Your small stick movements will now be damped as you maneuver and you'll find it much easier.

This only helps as long as the tanker is flying level. If you have to start banking with it your increased stick movement will disengage the A/P damping.

 

 

[Boosterdog]

Started with an old Sidewinder stick and blamed it for my lack of skill. Got a T50 and could no longer use that excuse so learned to AAR. 10% stick.,10% throttle, 80% practice.

[ShaunX]

6 minutes ago, Boosterdog said:

Started with an old Sidewinder stick and blamed it for my lack of skill. Got a T50 and could no longer use that excuse so learned to AAR. 10% stick.,10% throttle, 80% practice.

..you missed out the 50% cursing

[Boosterdog]

2 minutes ago, ShaunX said:

..you missed out the 50% cursing

I thought that was a given!

[Kansti]

1 hour ago, ShaunX said:

... press either the BALT or ATTH A/P button, then immediately press it again. ...

 

 

or just press the "ON/OFF" button when in "A/P" Mode

[Diesel_Thunder]

I upgraded from a 17 year old Saitek X-45 to a TM Warthog. The difference for me was huge as far AAR goes. With the X-45 I could get close, but never was able to plug with any of my jets. The precision just wasn’t there, plus there was a fair amount of stiction from it being old.

The first night with the Warthog I was finally able to connect, albeit briefly with the A-10. The new stick helped out a lot with it’s precision, no dead zone, and overall feel compared to the X-45. What it didn’t do was make up for my lack of skill at the time. With the X-45 I had tried a lot to AAR, failed every time, and gave up on it. The Warthog renewed my interest in that skill, and with plenty of practice, can now confidently do AAR in the Hornet and Viper. Just recently in the Hornet, I was able to hook up, fill the tanks full, and not have a single disconnect. Got just over 10K of gas in that one connection .

Edited December 19, 2021 by Diesel_Thunder

[macedk]

Only stick I struggled with was the Logitech g940, great idea and poorly implemented.

Been around gaming stuff since C64 days and short story, you can get used to a lot. 
Ya still need tha skills...:) 

[Sabre_Ewan]

20 hours ago, Mr_sukebe said:

I started with a CH Fighterstick, and really struggled with re-fuelling.  

Moved to a Virpil T50 base and that definitely helped.  Added a 20cm extension so I could centre mount the T50 and that helped even more.

Same sticks for me. Hours of trying with a CH stick and just getting frustrated. Got my T-50 with no extension, connected and got a full load of fuel on the first try.

[A.F.]

In my case it was the dead zone of my stick that gave me problems.
Unfortunately, the dead zone could not be adjusted on my stick (TFlight Hotas).
I then used the poti of another stick, which has no dead zone.
And then - with a little practice - it worked.