Proposed new Infantry models and additional ground assets

[Tank50us]

This thread is more about "What kind of troops I'd like to see" more than anything, and I'd like to see what you guys would want to see as well. Now, with all that said, here's what I'd like to see:

First off, the soldier themselves should have a wide range of uniforms and kit available. Uniforms should be an obvious one because many countries do buy uniforms and kit from other countries, or just copy what another country uses. As for the weapons, things get a bit more... interesting.

For starters, every infantryman should be armed with any one of the following (for modern day)

• M16
• FN FAL
• G36
• AK47/74/101
• Styr AUG (to represent bullpups)

Once that's been handled, the infantry get broken down into various 'classes'. Including, but not limited to:

• Rifleman: Basic troop, only armed with a rifle
• AT Light: A soldier that uses some sort of unguided AT weapon, like the RPG7, SMAW, Carl Gustav, etc.
• AT Heavy: A soldier that uses a man-portable ATGM, such as Kornet, Javelin, Spike, etc.
• Support: A soldier that trades their rifle for a LMG such as the M249 or RPK
• Heavy Support: A soldier that trades their rifle for a General Purpose MG such as the M240 or PKM
• Grenadier: A soldier that attaches an under-slung grenade launcher to their rifle
• Heavy Grenadier: A soldier who uses a multi-shot grenade launcher (giving them increased lethality against some vehicles)
• Anti-Air: A soldier who uses a MANPADS
• Radio: A soldier who walks around with a radio, they can act as a FAC or FO for air strikes and artillery respectively, as well as 'reporting' the locations of enemies they have line of sight to.
• Designated Marksman: A soldier armed with a much more accurate rifle (such as an Mk14 EBR, SR25, SVD, L96, etc), or their service rifle is equipped with a magnifying scope.
• Sniper: A soldier equipped with a ghillie suit and an extremely accurate rifle (such as an M40), or an Anti-Material Rifle for use against light vehicles (such as the M82/M107) 

Now, the way I'd handle the actual deployment of infantry is a bit like what we see for the trains. Each 'unit' is therefore counted as a whole squad, rather than 12+ individual units, with the 'squad leader' being the first guy put down. Once he/she is placed, you get an option for how the squad should be built up, either from a pre-select, or create one you like.

As well as the infantry, I'd like to see some of the modern towed artillery units that exist in the real world, and for added bonus points, make them capable of being sling-loaded from helicopters so that we can move them to fire bases. Mix this with more static defenses, like MG Nests, Recoiless Rifle pits, and so on, and you have the makings of some pretty interesting helicopter based scenarios.

Edit: Added DM and Sniper based on suggestion from @upyr1

Edited December 16, 2021 by Tank50us

[upyr1]

I would do things a bit differently.

First units. I do agree that would work better than just individual soldiers however since standard unit sizes and composition can change quite a bit not just from nation to nation and over time but also from service to service. The units should be user defined based on a table of organization editor.

Next I would add designated marksman who would use m14s svds and the like

[Tank50us]

2 minutes ago, upyr1 said:

First units. I do agree that would work better than just individual soldiers however since standard unit sizes and composition can change quite a bit not just from nation to nation and over time but also from service to service. The units should be user defined based on a table of organization editor.

If it were up to me it would come with a set of pre-sets, but also allow for full customization (to account for irregular forces and the like).

3 minutes ago, upyr1 said:

Next I would add designated marksman who would use m14s svds and the like

Adding

[upyr1]

14 minutes ago, Tank50us said:

If it were up to me it would come with a set of pre-sets, but also allow for full customization (to account for irregular forces and the like).

Having presets would be cool whenever possible so both would be better. The ground unit menu would have a drop down for unit size that runs from squad up to brigade or what ever Eagle deemed the largest practical unit for a map.

Edited December 16, 2021 by upyr1

[Tank50us]

1 minute ago, upyr1 said:

Having presets would be cool whenever possible so both would be better. The ground unit menu would have a drop down for unit size that runs from squad up to brigade or what ever Eagle deemed the largest practical unit for a map.

 

I'd say the largest would be squads for infantry (8-14 troops), and platoons for tanks and AFVs (4-6 vehicles). Things do however get tricky when you're dealing with 'attached' units, such as a squad of US Marines (12 guys) with an AAV-7. Although that could be easily fixed with an 'attached' command for the units, which would work in a similar fashion to the escort command. For example if you attach four USMC squads to a platoon of M1s, the M1s will 'know' not to leave their infantry behind, and will either move at their pace, or, stop long enough for the troops to clamber on top and ride the tank at full speed.

And before anyone says anything, yes, it is possible for troops to ride an M1, as demonstrated by these Marines:

[Callsign112]

1 hour ago, upyr1 said:

I would do things a bit differently.

First units. I do agree that would work better than just individual soldiers however since standard unit sizes and composition can change quite a bit not just from nation to nation and over time but also from service to service. The units should be user defined based on a table of organization editor.

Next I would add designated marksman who would use m14s svds and the like

Having predefined squads instead of individual units would be a step backwards in terms of functionality IMO. What we currently have is actually better than the suggestion in the bold text, because we can change the unit to anything we want without the need for a table/editor. All that is missing from the infantry side of things is variety. But if you wanted to make a group of planes, tanks, ships consisting of different types, all you have to do once you created the group size is simply select each unit and change it to the desired type. 

[upyr1]

5 minutes ago, Callsign112 said:

Having predefined squads instead of individual units would be a step backwards in terms of functionality IMO. What we currently have is actually better than the suggestion in the bold text, because we can change the unit to anything we want without the need for a table/editor. All that is missing from the infantry side of things is variety. But if you wanted to make a group of planes, tanks, ships consisting of different types, all you have to do once you created the group size is simply select each unit and change it to the desired type. 

Why not have both? With the size drop down go from individual to the largest practical unit? 

 

[Silver_Dragon]

Has some problems here....
Us troops not use M16, use M4A1 carabines
USMC use M27 IAR
FN-FAL only use by some south america / african countries, on europe has been replace by other rifles
Russian troops use AK-12/15/74M
Styr AUG only on use on Australy, Austria, Irish and New zeland with evolved variants as EF88
Missing:
Uk: L85A3
France: FAMAS M1 replaced by HK416
Italy: Bereta ARX160/200
Germany: G36 replaced by HK416

About soldier types:
Light antitank: very disparity....
- Russian squads maintain a dedicated RPG sodier
- Us squads have not dedicated soldiers, can get AT-4 CS to get antiarmour capability to squad
- Marines has one dedicated soldier with M3E1 MAAWS (Carl Gustaf) on your 15 men squads.
 

Edited December 16, 2021 by Silver_Dragon

[upyr1]

58 minutes ago, Tank50us said:

I'd say the largest would be squads for infantry (8-14 troops), and platoons for tanks and AFVs (4-6 vehicles). Things do however get tricky when you're dealing with 'attached' units, such as a squad of US Marines (12 guys) with an AAV-7. Although that could be easily fixed with an 'attached' command for the units, which would work in a similar fashion to the escort command. For example if you attach four USMC squads to a platoon of M1s, the M1s will 'know' not to leave their infantry behind, and will either move at their pace, or, stop long enough for the troops to clamber on top and ride the tank at full speed.

And before anyone says anything, yes, it is possible for troops to ride an M1, as demonstrated by these Marines:

The reason for wanting larger units, is it will make mission building a bit easier so it would be a simple matter of pre attaching

[LooseSeal]

11 minutes ago, Callsign112 said:

Having predefined squads instead of individual units would be a step backwards in terms of functionality IMO. 

I've got to disagree with that. I find placing infantry in the ME to be such a chore that I hate doing it. Place one guy down, then everyone appears in a big long line behind. Then I have to zoom out and find the last guys in the line and start dragging them all individually to where I want... There just has to be a better, more efficient way of doing it.

I like the idea of customisable presets. Although I like the idea of pre-built presets for many things in DCS... SAM sites, FARPs, full-deck carriers, roadbases, outposts, et, etc. For me, presets = 

Although at this point, any improvement to ground units will be more than welcome.

[Tank50us]

42 minutes ago, Silver_Dragon said:

Us troops not use M16, use M4A1 carabines

It is actually still issued, and many units have them in the stocks because getting rid of them (either into the open market, proper disposal, or selling them to allies) makes too much sense.

43 minutes ago, Silver_Dragon said:

USMC use M27 IAR

Which itself still looks like an AR15 patterned rifle, and the USMC has been reportedly on the fence about it since the guys on the ground were saying that it heats up too fast and jams too easily to be effective at suppressing enemy troops

45 minutes ago, Silver_Dragon said:

FN-FAL only use by some south america / african countries, on europe has been replace by other rifles
Russian troops use AK-12/15/74M

The AK and FAL family are some of the most widely distributed rifles in history, which is why I included both. And even then, their modern versions don't look that much different then the originals, especially if you're looking at them from 30,000ft through a T-Pod. The same applies to bullpups, which as stated is represented by the Styr as it's the most successful design to date. That being said, if done, additional weapons could be added later down the road.

As for the Light AT, the 'etc' is meant to emphasize other weapons that could be used. I picked the ones I did because they're all 'reloadable' designs, and the fact that a dude with one fires more than one shot will be a bit more believable than someone using a LAW or AT4 (that said, it's not like those couldn't be added to the basic rifleman through the appropriate screen).

1 hour ago, Callsign112 said:

Having predefined squads instead of individual units would be a step backwards in terms of functionality IMO. What we currently have is actually better than the suggestion in the bold text, because we can change the unit to anything we want without the need for a table/editor. All that is missing from the infantry side of things is variety. But if you wanted to make a group of planes, tanks, ships consisting of different types, all you have to do once you created the group size is simply select each unit and change it to the desired type. 

It actually wouldn't. The idea is that the squad moves as a single unit (similar to some RTS titles), rather than a whole bunch of single units (as is the case now). Doing it this way would make it slightly easier for servers to keep track of (since the squad would have a shared ammo reserve), and better allow for infantry to function within DCS as something other than cannon fodder (because with the right kit they can hold their own), or outright seething hatred (ask anyone who flys helos about MANPADS, they'll tell ya how they feel about them). As for the rest, the unit window in question would be a mix of the aircraft arming window we know and love in the ME, and the train-load window. Pick your SL, place him/her down, click the right tab, and either pick from one of the dozens of presets, or create your own squad from that window (hit a plus-sign to add a unit, and use a series of drop-down menus to select what they use within their class)

[upyr1]

30 minutes ago, Tank50us said:

The idea is that the squad moves as a single unit (similar to some RTS titles), rather than a whole bunch of single units (as is the case now).

 

Squads are composed of fire teams where team a covers team b as they move to a new position and then switch. so the ai would have to handle things in units and subunits in order to be realistic. Hence the reason for larger units as well. You would need away to issue commands to different unit levels in the editor 

[Silver_Dragon]

2 minutes ago, upyr1 said:

Squads are composed of fire teams where team a covers team b as they move to a new position and then switch. so the ai would have to handle things in units and subunits in order to be realistic. Hence the reason for larger units as well. You would need away to issue commands to different unit levels in the editor 

Fire teams has fixed entities, no a crazy insurgence force with 12 MMG or 7 RPGs.

[upyr1]

1 hour ago, Silver_Dragon said:

Fire teams has fixed entities, no a crazy insurgence force with 12 MMG or 7 RPGs.

Mind explaining how this is relevant to my statement? Which is even if the smallest group is a squad, it will need to be divided up into fire teams as far so that it is moving realistically. So instead of just running across a field fire team A will cover while fire team b advances. I also think this sort of AI could be applied to larger units as well. For example the squads might be grouped together to form a platoon and the platoons would form companies. So ideally in the editor we would need the ability to set a command at a differnt unit level and have the AI figure the objective. For example if I have a unit I labeled the 45th battalion marching on an enemy outpost I could assign the entire battalion a command like march here - and have the AI figure the details or I could issue it sub units 

[Silver_Dragon]

My comentary coming from the "mixed" infantry units without any concept.... you talk about move "coordinate" platoons, companies and/or batallions. That has "out of scale" with never has builded on a simulator. I only see them on wargames.

 

 

Edited December 16, 2021 by Silver_Dragon

[upyr1]

58 minutes ago, Silver_Dragon said:

My comentary coming from the "mixed" infantry units without any concept.... you talk about move "coordinate" platoons, companies and/or batallions. That has "out of scale" with never has builded on a simulator. I only see them on wargames.

 

 

 

That was my point, DCS's AI needs to take care of things like that. I'm not sure what the largest unit that should go on any map, but no matter how small or large of a unit we can place on a map, but we do need war game type AI especially when we get the dynamic campaign. 

[Callsign112]

3 hours ago, upyr1 said:

Why not have both? With the size drop down go from individual to the largest practical unit? 

 

 

2 hours ago, Tank50us said:

...It actually wouldn't. The idea is that the squad moves as a single unit (similar to some RTS titles), rather than a whole bunch of single units (as is the case now). Doing it this way would make it slightly easier for servers to keep track of (since the squad would have a shared ammo reserve), and better allow for infantry to function within DCS as something other than cannon fodder (because with the right kit they can hold their own), or outright seething hatred (ask anyone who flys helos about MANPADS, they'll tell ya how they feel about them). As for the rest, the unit window in question would be a mix of the aircraft arming window we know and love in the ME, and the train-load window. Pick your SL, place him/her down, click the right tab, and either pick from one of the dozens of presets, or create your own squad from that window (hit a plus-sign to add a unit, and use a series of drop-down menus to select what they use within their class)

@upyr1, @Tank50us, I didn't get the reference to the aircraft arming window earlier, but I like it. I also think upyr1's suggestion for both is a good one, and think the most basic unit still has to be the single unit because you might want something smaller than a squad. One of the most important features of Ai infantry IMO is the ability to move them according to your needs. Like right now this is IMO one of the biggest weaknesses in CA.

But yeah, the arming window is an incredibly good idea. Just imagine if we could access something like that right from within the mission editor. After selecting the desired infantry unit/nation and setting the group size, it opens up in a load out window where you can then select the specific load out for each unit in the group/squad. This would work whether the group consisted of a single soldier, or a whole squad. There would probably be a limit to the max size of a single squad though in terms of performance, as well as a maximum number of squads in use at any one time, but yeah something like that would work very well. 

[Callsign112]

5 hours ago, LooseSeal said:

I've got to disagree with that. I find placing infantry in the ME to be such a chore that I hate doing it. Place one guy down, then everyone appears in a big long line behind. Then I have to zoom out and find the last guys in the line and start dragging them all individually to where I want... There just has to be a better, more efficient way of doing it.

I like the idea of customisable presets. Although I like the idea of pre-built presets for many things in DCS... SAM sites, FARPs, full-deck carriers, roadbases, outposts, et, etc. For me, presets = 

Although at this point, any improvement to ground units will be more than welcome.

I hear you @LooseSeal, at the moment the only work around we have are templates. I say "the only", but realize they work very well.

Next time you have to set up an infantry group, don't forget to save it as a template when your done. It will save you a lot of time in your set ups. I have infantry groups of 50+ men. If I had to rebuild that from scratch every time,... yeah I get it.

You can also make a template of one unit type, place it in your new mission and then change the group to another type and resave as a new template.

But I agree, any and all improvements in ground units is certainly welcome on this end.

[FlankerKiller]

I agree we need more infantry types. The foundation is already in game we just need more assets. With DCS coming back around to being a close air support game it's time the ground forces got a real upgrade. Infantry combat is still the majority of combat, and needs to be represented better in game. It seem the easiest way to start would be to have more type added to all armies. With light machine guns, anti tank rockets, grenade launchers, and MANPADS the infantry would have some real teeth, just as they do IRL. Having a really good verity of ground troops would give us a reason to get in close with the attack helicopters.

[upyr1]

46 minutes ago, FlankerKiller said:

I agree we need more infantry types. The foundation is already in game we just need more assets. With DCS coming back around to being a close air support game it's time the ground forces got a real upgrade. Infantry combat is still the majority of combat, and needs to be represented better in game. It seem the easiest way to start would be to have more type added to all armies. With light machine guns, anti tank rockets, grenade launchers, and MANPADS the infantry would have some real teeth, just as they do IRL. Having a really good verity of ground troops would give us a reason to get in close with the attack helicopters.

I figure eagle needs to give infantry multiple weapons per soldier. For example most riflemen carry hand grenades. 

Next improved damage models especially the trees