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AGM-65L


Caldera

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Hey All,

So I was testing the AGM-65L today.  First off, it seems to have the biggest bang for the buck out of almost all the weapons that I have tested.  The splash damage radius is HUGE.

But, that is not what I am most wondering about and I was hoping people with more experience could weigh in.  Please take a look.

 

This is an attack run.  The laser is currently on and the Maverick has locked on to it.  Notice that the Maverick is 8.1 and the TGP is 13.7 nm.  If I shoot now the missile will most likely miss.

AGM-65L 01.gif

This is a weird one.  The Maverick was still at 8.1 and also 8.1 for the TGP.  The actual slant range at this very instant I would have approximated to be 9.0 to 8.5 nm.  Where the TGP just popped to 8.1 and stayed there for a bit as I flew closer.

AGM-65L 02.gif

The Maverick and the TGP are now synchronized counting down from 8.1 nm.

AGM-65L 03.gif

The Maverick is off the rails.

AGM-65L 04.gif

This is impact.  The laser did not shut itself off (as it had been doing).  The Maverick average forward speed was just a hair over twice the speed of the aircraft, which from memory was about 280-300 knots.

AGM-65L 05.gif

This look about right as to how the AGM-65L Maverick should function?

Caldera

 


Edited by Caldera
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BDA

This is the kill radius it is better than a 500 lbm bomb.  A 500 pounder most likely would not have taken out the BTR-80.

AGM-65L 06.gif

This is the splash damage radius and is page 2 of the report, which was about a page and a half.  Notice that it hit infantry out to 525 feet and one BTR-80 out to 75 feet. 

AGM-65L 07.gif

Pretty impressive damage range for this weapon.

Caldera


Edited by Caldera
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7 hours ago, Caldera said:

This is a weird one.  The Maverick was still at 8.1 and also 8.1 for the TGP.  The actual slant range at this very instant I would have approximated to be 9.0 to 8.5 nm.  Where the TGP just popped to 8.1 and stayed there for a bit as I flew closer.

 

The Maverick and the TGP are now synchronized counting down from 8.1 nm.

 

 

The laser only has a range of about 8 nm.  At that point, it actually produces a laser spot in the air if it hasn't hit the ground yet.  That's why the laser Mav is tracking something, but at the wrong range.  It's also why the TGP gets stuck at 8.1 for some distance.  At some further distance, the TGP laser ranging does weird stuff, and I think the intention was to have it switch to using GPS slant range past 12 nm of actual slant range, but something got messed up because I've seen the distance run off to 300 nm until you turn the laser off.

TLDR, it's a laser ranging issue in DCS, not a AGM-65L issue.

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Hey All,

Does anyone happen to know what type of warhead the AGM-65L has?  The internet, which is my only source, does not have data for this weapon that I can find.

The reason that I am asking is because for DCS this weapon hits pretty dang hard.  It has the second largest splash radius of any weapon that I have tested so far.  I am guessing that it is modeled as a penetrator type warhead with at least 136 kg of high explosive.  But I can't find any data, not even what the gross weight is.

 

Take a look.  Notice that the splash damage radius (INF HIT) is greater than a 2000 lbm GBU-10 and only second to the penetrator style GBU-31 (GBU-31 AP).  It also killed a T-55 at 25 feet and took out infantry better than a CBU-103 by a very noticeable margin (which is supposed to be an anti-infantry weapon?). 

HE RATIO --> INF HIT (feet) divided by HE KGS (weight of the explosive charge)

AGM-65L 08.gif

Up till this I had thought that the AGM-65G was the best, not true. 

Super weapon in DCS?

Caldera

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Taz,

The laser stays on until about 1 second before impact.  Then it automatically shuts off. 

For my testing, I have been turning the laser on at around 14-15 nm and shooting the missile at around 7-8 nm.  I have not noticed the laser shutting off mid flight like it used to.

6 hours ago, Taz1004 said:

As for warheads, all mavericks have larger blast radius than other bombs with larger warhead.  AGM-65D have almost 3 times the blast radius of GBU-12.

Look at my chart above.  From my testing it is closer to 2 times the blast (splash) radius.  However, the kill radius is better for the 500 pounder.  Makes me wonder why the AGM does so good otherwise.  My only theory is that it is required to ensure that all the various armor values are overcome from strikes at different aspect angles.

 

"This is a weird one.  The Maverick was still at 8.1 and also 8.1 for the TGP.  The actual slant range at this very instant I would have approximated to be 9.0 to 8.5 nm.  Where the TGP just popped to 8.1 and stayed there for a bit as I flew closer."

FWIW, I can no longer get this to repeat.  I do not know why.  But maybe it was glitched for my initial testing spree. 

Or...

I just imagined that it had happened at all.

Caldera

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Just turn to one side to the tpod gimbal limit after launch and keep It on the limits until impact. 

Dont fly straight into the target.

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7 minutes ago, Esac_mirmidon said:

Just turn to one side to the tpod gimbal limit after launch and keep It on the limits until impact. 

Dont fly straight into the target.

Hmm, I remember it didn't have anything to do with tpod gimbal limit.  Laser had its own which was very narrow like 15' or some.  Did they fix that?

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You can do that with other planes, (Harrier, Hornet). I didnt tried since a long time with the A-10C, but It should be the same.

After all, a Tpod is a Tpod.


Edited by Esac_mirmidon

" You must think in russian.."

[sIGPIC][/sIGPIC]

 

Windows 7 Home Premium-Intel 2500K OC 4.6-SSD Samsung EVO 860- MSI GTX 1080 - 16G RAM - 1920x1080 27´

 

Hotas Rhino X-55-MFG Crosswind Rudder Pedals -Track IR 4

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19 minutes ago, Esac_mirmidon said:

You can do that with other planes, (Harrier, Hornet). I didnt try since a long time with the A-10C, but It should be the same.

After all, a Tpod is a Tpod.

Just tried.  Can't turn any more than 20' or I lose the laser lock.  Strange thing is you can't turn back and reaquire the laser lock once you lose it.  I thought I was able to do that before.  By slowing way down with flaps and turning 20', furthest I could stay away from target until impact was 3.8 miles when fired at 8 miles.


Edited by Taz1004
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1 hour ago, Taz1004 said:

Just tried.  Can't turn any more than 20' or I lose the laser lock.  Strange thing is you can't turn back and reaquire the laser lock once you lose it.  I thought I was able to do that before.  By slowing way down with flaps and turning 20', furthest I could stay away from target until impact was 3.8 miles when fired at 8 miles.

 

You lose what laser lock? Once you've fired a maverick, the maverick display in the aircraft doesn't matter, that's only for the next maverick. As long as the targeting pod has line of sight to the target and the laser stays on, it can still lase the target. And the maverick you already fired will be flying straight towards it so it will keep the lock.

All you need to do is lase, acquire lock, fire the maverick, then turn and keep the targeting pod on the target.

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1 hour ago, Sabre_Ewan said:

You lose what laser lock? Once you've fired a maverick, the maverick display in the aircraft doesn't matter, that's only for the next maverick. As long as the targeting pod has line of sight to the target and the laser stays on, it can still lase the target. And the maverick you already fired will be flying straight towards it so it will keep the lock.

All you need to do is lase, acquire lock, fire the maverick, then turn and keep the targeting pod on the target.

I know the maverick display doesn't matter once fired.  I figured out the issue however.  I make the turn after firing and I level out.  Then M starts flashing, L stops flashing, and maverick stops guiding.  Even tho tpod is still on the target at 10K feet.  I have to keep turning to keep the laser on the target.  Targeting pod and laser seems to have different limits.


Edited by Taz1004
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7 hours ago, Taz1004 said:

I know the maverick display doesn't matter once fired.  I figured out the issue however.  I make the turn after firing and I level out.  Then M starts flashing, L stops flashing, and maverick stops guiding.  Even tho tpod is still on the target at 10K feet.  I have to keep turning to keep the laser on the target.  Targeting pod and laser seems to have different limits.

 

Yes, the TGP camera can track over a much larger range.   In particular, elevation is limited to about -15 degrees elevation (below the plane of the wings) off to the sides, although you get up to +20 deg elevation once your azimuth is within 30 deg of the nose.

Incidentally, this makes the strategy of turning away from the target impractical at low to medium altitude--you can't fly straight and level without masking the laser, you MUST stay slightly banked away from the target, more so if you're lower, so you'll continue turning away.  If the weapon TOF is too long, you'll eventually have to keep turning until it may get masked in the aft blind spot.  You also can't turn back into the target for precisely the same reason.  Best is to turn only about 60 degrees away from the target immediately to avoid overflying, then stay in a 5-10 degree bank away until the weapon hits.  The problem is less with weapons with short TOF (GBU-12) and less with higher altitude.

Flashing M (and flashing crosshair) means you're near the laser limit, solid M and solid L means you're masked (and hosed if you were guiding a weapon).  The M and L cues are mirrored in the lower left section of the HUD so you don't have to stare at the TGP.

Worse yet, POINT track seems to have an even smaller area that I've never quite gotten a good sense of.


Edited by jaylw314
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On 12/17/2021 at 9:46 PM, Taz1004 said:

I honestly don't see the point of laser maverick unless it's with JTAC.  Thing is so slow that by the time it hits the target, you're almost right on top of the target.  Even in this Wags video below, he gets to 2.2 miles when it hits the target.

Yes, it is a difficult weapon to find a real purpose for comparing it only to other Mavericks.  The accuracy is no better than one of the none laser guided AGM's and you can only carry two.  As soon as a "something" shoots back, you will most likely instantly mask the laser due to defensive maneuvering.

 

Buddy lasing - From my testing the lasing aircraft has to be within 8.1 nm as well as the shooting aircraft.  So there is no great advantage there.  But you still can do it.

Ground lasing - JTAC lasing works if you can get them to turn on their laser.  I am unsure if Combined Arms with a human in control would work, but that could be fun.

Multi lasing - Having at least two (or more) lasers on at the same time with the same frequency.  I will have to test to see if this would work.  For example a two ship with a buddy and a shooter both lasing the same target.  That sounds fun as well.

Shot Abort - You can change your mind while the missile is mid flight.  If the laser is turned off the missile will most likely miss.

 

The only significant advantage that I can come up with is that if you happen to know that you will be going up against a large concentration of infantry.  The AGM-65L is by far lighter than a 2000 lbm bomb.  It is second in infantry kill radius only to the MK-31 AP.  It could be, in my opinion, a very effective weapon for that task. 

It also hits noticeably harder than a 500 lbm bomb with a bit more stand off range.  So it could be used as a substitute for a GBU-12 (one on steroids) using the same overflight profile that you would use for that weapon.

Caldera


Edited by Caldera
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Interesting testing results. Thanks, I wouldn't have expected that. I suspect that is pretty unrealisticly modeled in DCS. In real life it's primarily used for moving targets and armor. Its only got a 300 lb warcranium that is designed to punch through armor. It is specifically not desgined to do a lot of splash damage like what DCS is demonstrating. It hits a small point target very percisely and very hard. It's not going to do anywhere near the same amount of blast or frag damage as a 500lb GP bomb (which is what you'd want to kill soft skinned vehicles or troops in the open), especially if the bomb is an air burst. Since the maverick is contact fuzed it'd probably hit the ground near infantry and most of the explosive, fragmentation force would go into the ground and downrange of the impact. You'd probably injure or kill a few unlucky guys close in, but nothing close to GP bombs.

 

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A specific scenario I can think of would be a defended target (SHORAD and MANPADS) that needed taking out in close vicinity to friendlies or civilians.  While you could point your TGP and slave the Maverick, the resolution of the seeker is way too poor at standoff distances to ensure you're hitting the correct target.  While I'm sure we've all yeeted AGM-65's when we've gotten the seeker to lock onto SOMETHING at 10 nm, when you can't positively ID what the seeker's locked onto, it doesn't give you a warm and fuzzy feeling when you know there are friendlies 200m away.  On the other hand, the TGP and laser ensure you can accurately pick out the correct target even at max standoff distance (admittedly only 8 nm).  And you have no other PGM that has such a standoff range.  Even better if you have somebody else with the laser, either a JTAC on the ground or an F/A-18C at Angels 30 above the altitude range of the air defenses. 


Edited by jaylw314
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On 12/17/2021 at 9:46 PM, Taz1004 said:

I honestly don't see the point of laser maverick unless it's with JTAC.  Thing is so slow that by the time it hits the target, you're almost right on top of the target.  Even in this Wags video below, he gets to 2.2 miles when it hits the target.

 

Turn...

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On 12/20/2021 at 7:26 PM, Taz1004 said:

Read...

I honestly don't see the point of laser maverick unless it's with JTAC. Buddy lase, urban environments where your 65D is potentially going to lock on to a light pole or something, wanting to ensure you're locked onto the Tunguska in a tightly-spaced group rather than an adjacent vehicle, etc, etc.

Thing is so slow that by the time it hits the target, you're almost right on top of the target. Fire from a closer range and then beam it.

Even in this Wags video below, he gets to 2.2 miles when it hits the target. He should/could have turned.

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8 minutes ago, SJBMX said:

I honestly don't see the point of laser maverick unless it's with JTAC. Buddy lase, urban environments where your 65D is potentially going to lock on to a light pole or something, wanting to ensure you're locked onto the Tunguska in a tightly-spaced group rather than an adjacent vehicle, etc, etc.

Thing is so slow that by the time it hits the target, you're almost right on top of the target. Fire from a closer range and then beam it.

Even in this Wags video below, he gets to 2.2 miles when it hits the target. He should/could have turned.

There are 8 more comments after that which explains why I wasn't turning, the cause, resolution, and confirmation.  But you chose to respond to a comment on a post way up in the thread.  Hence my response.  Read.

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On 12/22/2021 at 10:59 PM, Taz1004 said:

There are 8 more comments after that which explains why I wasn't turning, the cause, resolution, and confirmation.  But you chose to respond to a comment on a post way up in the thread.  Hence my response.  Read.

You're right, I should have read further down and realized that you didn't know how to turn without masking your laser.

My updated advice for you: Know your turn.

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On 12/24/2021 at 7:19 PM, SJBMX said:

You're right, I should have read further down and realized that you didn't know how to turn without masking your laser.

My updated advice for you: Know your turn.

LOL, you need to READ further.

My advice for myself:  Mute troll.  In the meantime, there are thousands of old threads where you can give your "one word advice" to outdated questions.


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  • 2 weeks later...
On 12/17/2021 at 1:33 PM, Yurgon said:

As far as I know, the AGM-65L uses the 136 kg WDU-24/B penetrating blast-fragmentation warhead that the G and K models also use. If that's the case, the results in DCS should be identical.

That, and I would be willing to bet that a 500 lb Mav carries prolly close to twice the kinetic energy of a 500 lb GBU on impact.

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