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AGM-65L


Caldera

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On 12/18/2021 at 6:46 AM, Taz1004 said:

I honestly don't see the point of laser maverick unless it's with JTAC.  Thing is so slow that by the time it hits the target, you're almost right on top of the target.  Even in this Wags video below, he gets to 2.2 miles when it hits the target

We use it for buddy lasing as a stand off weapon. Very accurate and very lethal. See example below.

 

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Ready,

Buddy lasing in my squadron is what got me going off on this topic to begin with.  It is a qualification requested by my CO.  I agree, that it is a fun thing to do.

Two main weakness for buddy lasing and they are the same as self lasing:

  • Inside 8 NM range for both the shooter and the lasing aircraft
  • Masking if the lasing aircraft gets shot back at

You are essentially putting two aircraft in harms way vice only one.  If the laser could be detected at greater distances by the shooter that would be a game changer.

 

Have you ever tried dual lasing?  Where both the shooter and the buddy lase on the same frequency at the same time.

Caldera


Edited by Caldera
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1 hour ago, Caldera said:

You are essentially putting two aircraft in harms way vice only one.

Well, both the shooter and the designator can remain at their respective max distances. I'd say that puts them a lot less in harm's way than self-designation, when the shooter can't maneuver too hard and has to keep the TGP on target during egress, and is basically focused on flying the jet within parameters, rather than egressing and looking out the window for any threats.

No one says the designator has to fly straight at the target. It's perfectly valid for the designator to fly a wheel around the target and coordinate with the shooter so that the laser designation and the weapon will come from the same general direction during the engagement.

If that's not good enough to keep them out of harm's way, I'd seriously reconsider my tactics and question why there's such an obvious lack of dedicated SEAD/DEAD support.


Edited by Yurgon
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Yurgon,

Thanks!

One can always use any weapon if, in DCS, the weapon will fit in the attack profile that is required / used, weather conditions included.  And yes, I am working on tactics hence the reason I kind of started this thread.  My thoughts and experience to date are below compared to what your thoughts are.  Just let me say that I have never buddy lased with a non A-10C buddy.

 

54 minutes ago, Yurgon said:

Well, both the shooter and the designator can remain at their respective max distances. I'd say that puts them a lot less in harm's way than self-designation, when the shooter can't maneuver too hard and has to keep the TGP on target during egress, and is basically focused on flying the jet within parameters, rather than egressing and looking out the window for any threats.

The shooter kind of gets off the hook in all cases when buddy lasing and can immediately evade any threat.  They still have ingress to at least to 8 nm.  Maybe only trying to decoy a SAM or AAA after weapon release.   It also frees up the shooter to continue with another attack using different weapons they might have on board or even shoot another AGM-65L with a different laser frequency.

The buddy is left totally on the hook staying well within allot of SAM's firing range, maneuvering and not masking the laser at an exposed altitude more or less like a fast zeppelin for what seems like an endless amount of time before the AGM-65L strikes.  They have to do this for any chance of hit.

If the laser is masked even one time then the odds of a hit begin dropping.  This is depending how long it takes the guy lasing to realize that the laser is masked,  maneuver,  and to get the laser back on the target after unmasking.

No one says the designator has to fly straight at the target. It's perfectly valid for the designator to fly a wheel around the target and coordinate with the shooter so that the laser designation and the weapon will come from the same general direction during the engagement.

I have not been able to fly a wheel route inside of 8 miles and not mask the laser.  This is true for buddy bombing also.  I seem to always end up masking (or my buddy does).   If the laser goes out side of 8 nm then the weapon loses track also.

Would you suggest how to actually do this?

If that's not good enough to keep them out of harm's way, I'd seriously reconsider my tactics and question why there's such an obvious lack of dedicated SEAD/DEAD support.

OK Fair enough, I want to improve my tactics and that is for sure. 

So you think buddy lasing might work, for example, against SAM sites such as a SA-8, SA-9, SA-13 or SA-19.  But that you would call in support for an attack on lets say a SA-11 site with multiple launchers?   I am almost certain that to try to use a AGM-65L for a successful attack, in any method, against a SA-11 would end up with black smoke in the sky.

Considering that same attack against a SA-11 and the value of a fire and forget weapon like the AGM-65D,  I would opt for pop up pop down attack profile.   My odds might be iffy, depending upon the terrain, but certainly doable.   For comparison, a successful pop up pop down attack against a SA-2 or SA-3 site with a AGM-65D is amazingly easy to perform and any attack almost impossible with a AGM-65L.

 

The AGM-65L is terrible against areas with weapon systems that have range on it in all attack profiles that I know about.

If the target area does not weapons systems that have the range to fire back before the AGM-65L hits, then omit all these comments above.   Because it is a great weapon to use IMO and just plain fun for you and your buddy.

Caldera

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If the designator is in an A-10, flying about 5-6 nm out and above 15k feet AGL means you can fly a clockwise wheel around the target in clear weather without masking.  Keeps you out of range of pretty much every SHORAD except the SA-8, so that should probably be the priority of any SEAD assets.  

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As has been said, the designator can cruise happy at 20k ft just inside the 8nm limit, oversee the area and guide the weapon in. The Shooter is only exposed for a very limited time and even then there is not much around that can reach out to him. And if it ist you shouldn´t be there in your A-10 in the first place.

And yes, the Shooter can pick up the laser further out than the 8nm limit - you could even fire already if the designator is further out as long as he closes in by the time the weapon arrives.

 

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52d_Sig_Pic3.png

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Jay,

I must be a nit wit, I can't get that to work.  These are pictures that I just took in an pretty stable autopilot orbit at around 6 nm.

Orbit 01 .gif

Orbit 02 .gif

Skip,

Very nice video!  I like your target set-up. 

The TacView inset was in the way of the MAV MFCD and unfortunately the text was too small for me to read.  For me, solo lasing it seems that it would likely miss if I shot outside of 8nm.  I noticed that you did fire with a good lock and at around 8nm on the MAV MFCD do you happen to remember what actual slant range was?

 

One new thing I have not know about before today is that you can slew the MAV cursor up or down when it is is search mode.  This purpose for faster acquisition of the laser?

AGM-65L 09.gif

Thanks again,

Caldera

 


Edited by Caldera
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4 hours ago, Caldera said:

The buddy is left totally on the hook staying well within allot of SAM's firing range, maneuvering and not masking the laser at an exposed altitude more or less like a fast zeppelin for what seems like an endless amount of time before the AGM-65L strikes.  They have to do this for any chance of hit.

Yes, it is true that the designator needs to continually lase the target from weapon acquisition to impact. This is no different between self-designation and buddy-lasing.

However, buddy-lasing allows the shooter to steer clear of the target area, while the designator can maintain a good distance from it. And they can of course support each other the whole time, so after the shooter has performed the egress and/or safe escape maneuver, he can make sure no missiles are fired on the designator, and warn his wingman if missiles do get launched.

5 hours ago, Caldera said:

If the laser is masked even one time then the odds of a hit begin dropping.  This is depending how long it takes the guy lasing to realize that the laser is masked,  maneuver,  and to get the laser back on the target after unmasking.

This is no different with LGBs, is it? The Mav just has a longer flight time, and if the designator gets masked during this time, he hopefully learns from the mistake and doesn't repeat it. 😉

5 hours ago, Caldera said:

So you think buddy lasing might work, for example, against SAM sites such as a SA-8, SA-9, SA-13 or SA-19.

The first 3 of these you can practically gun down. 😄

SA-19, those things are pretty darn dangerous. Haven't tried with AGM-65L, might be worth a shot (pun intended).

I guess the real question is why you want to engage SAMs with A-10s. That's not what it was built to do. If you have to fight your way through a layered air defense network in A-10s, you're either in deep trouble, or you're not using the aircraft in the intended role.

Sure, it's great being able to remove the occasional threat from the battlefield and moving in closer to go against the main targets. But the actual job would be to either provide close air support, or splash as many tanks as possible.

This discussion is somehow drifting into "How would you engage air defenses with AGM-65L?". Well, as long as I can avoid them, I simply wouldn't. And if I can't, I'd much rather have a wingman designate the target for my AGM-65L than go in with bombs.

5 hours ago, Caldera said:

The AGM-65L is terrible against areas with weapon systems that have range on it in all attack profiles that I know about.

See my point above.

Other Mav-models might be slightly better for this task, so if you have the option, go for them. What's stopping you?

4 hours ago, =52d= Skip said:

The Shooter is only exposed for a very limited time and even then there is not much around that can reach out to him. And if it ist you shouldn´t be there in your A-10 in the first place.

Yup. 🙂

Great video, those attacks looked really smooth! 👍

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1 hour ago, Caldera said:

Jay,

I must be a nit wit, I can't get that to work.  These are pictures that I just took in an pretty stable autopilot orbit at around 6 nm.

Orbit 01 .gif

 

 

Are you talking about not being able to laze the weapon in? If not, disregard everything below.

In this instance, bank less. The SA cue (the little white dot on the right of your TGP) is burried in the mask zone and the L M at the bottom of the screen is telling you your laser is masked.  use where that SA cue is to know how much you can and can't bank. Keep it in the middle 2/3rds of the screen and you shouldn't have an issue. It's not uncommon to have to level out, go slightly belly up to the target, or put in a boot of rudder to keep the TGP unmasked and looking at the target as you lase the weapon in. If you want to be in a stable wheel above the target, move in closer and you shouldn't have that issue. Also, make sure you don't have a weapon on station 11 because that could make your LMZ worse. If you notice in the video posted above, the eyeball just kept flying straight and level, so was able to avoid the LMZ.

 

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2 hours ago, Caldera said:

Jay,

I must be a nit wit, I can't get that to work.  These are pictures that I just took in an pretty stable autopilot orbit at around 6 nm.

No, that's because I was giving you optimistic numbers from off the top of my head 🙂  TGP elevation limit is 30 degrees below the wing, so your altitude AGL needs to be at least about 60% your slant range.  If your slant range it 5 nm (30,000'), you need to be about 18,000' AGL.  This gets you about a 5 degree bank, which is enough IF you're less than 190-200 KIAS at that altitude.  The slower you go, the less bank angle you need.

 

 

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Thanks Jay,

1 hour ago, jaylw314 said:

 The slower you go, the less bank angle you need.

I think that might be my missing puzzle piece.  I will give it a try.

 

ASAP,

2 hours ago, ASAP said:

 or put in a boot of rudder to keep the TGP unmasked

Another great tip, thanks!  I will give it a try.

 

Yurgon,

I attack SAM sites,

Because...

Because...

Because...

I guess I enjoy the challenge of learning how to defeat them.  Defeating armor or AAA is relatively easy (as in very easy) for the most part.  But SAM's are a delight all on their own and I would like to know the key to unlocking each one.

 

I consider the AGM-65L to be an under used but extremely potent weapon in DCS.  Deployed from a A-10C, nothing hits as hard as it except for the GBU-31 AP.

Caldera

 

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22 hours ago, Caldera said:

Ready,

Buddy lasing in my squadron is what got me going off on this topic to begin with.  It is a qualification requested by my CO.  I agree, that it is a fun thing to do.

Two main weakness for buddy lasing and they are the same as self lasing:

  • Inside 8 NM range for both the shooter and the lasing aircraft
  • Masking if the lasing aircraft gets shot back at

You are essentially putting two aircraft in harms way vice only one.  If the laser could be detected at greater distances by the shooter that would be a game changer.

 

Have you ever tried dual lasing?  Where both the shooter and the buddy lase on the same frequency at the same time.

Caldera

 

To me the buddy lase is really for acuracy and to keep the shooter out of harms way. Of course it is also a backup for when the TGP has been shot.

I prefer the self lase L over the D if there is a risk of locking the D on telephone poles etc, so I can just use the TGP for spotting. 

The D is a bit quicker to operate at open areas, for example pop-ups just over a hill towards a small valley. For engaging targets in more urban areas I would go for the L, as long as there is a clear line of sight.

Haven't tried dual lasing on the same freq.

I am considering to records a few videos where I try different engagement techniques and weapons against the more advanced SAMs. Always up for a challenge. (seen my landing challenges?)

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On 1/11/2022 at 8:38 AM, Caldera said:

Ready,

Buddy lasing in my squadron is what got me going off on this topic to begin with.  It is a qualification requested by my CO.  I agree, that it is a fun thing to do.

Two main weakness for buddy lasing and they are the same as self lasing:

  • Inside 8 NM range for both the shooter and the lasing aircraft
  • Masking if the lasing aircraft gets shot back at

You are essentially putting two aircraft in harms way vice only one.  If the laser could be detected at greater distances by the shooter that would be a game changer.

 

Have you ever tried dual lasing?  Where both the shooter and the buddy lase on the same frequency at the same time.

Caldera

 

Against a higher-threat, but shorter range target (ex: SA-15), the lasing aircraft can lase from standoff, while the attacker can perform a pop-up attack, rifle, and break behind cover. The SA-15 will attempt to engage the attacking aircraft first, and if that aircraft can remain in the SA-15's FOV until it fires its missiles, the Maverick is much more likely to not be intercepted due to the shorter-than-usual range at which it's being fired and the vertical launch profile of the SA-15). Also, it's a lot of fun.

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On 1/11/2022 at 6:46 PM, Caldera said:

Jay,

I must be a nit wit, I can't get that to work.  These are pictures that I just took in an pretty stable autopilot orbit at around 6 nm.

Orbit 01 .gif

Orbit 02 .gif

Skip,

Very nice video!  I like your target set-up. 

The TacView inset was in the way of the MAV MFCD and unfortunately the text was too small for me to read.  For me, solo lasing it seems that it would likely miss if I shot outside of 8nm.  I noticed that you did fire with a good lock and at around 8nm on the MAV MFCD do you happen to remember what actual slant range was?

 

One new thing I have not know about before today is that you can slew the MAV cursor up or down when it is is search mode.  This purpose for faster acquisition of the laser?

AGM-65L 09.gif

Thanks again,

Caldera

What threw me off in the first place was people telling me "If TGP can see it, then Laser can see it".

This apparently is not true.  TGP and Laser have different limits.  You need to slightly bank away from your target to keep laser unmasked.


Edited by Taz1004
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5 hours ago, SJBMX said:

Against a higher-threat, but shorter range target (ex: SA-15), the lasing aircraft can lase from standoff, while the attacker can perform a pop-up attack, rifle, and break behind cover. The SA-15 will attempt to engage the attacking aircraft first, and if that aircraft can remain in the SA-15's FOV until it fires its missiles, the Maverick is much more likely to not be intercepted due to the shorter-than-usual range at which it's being fired and the vertical launch profile of the SA-15). Also, it's a lot of fun.

Very fun, yes, but admittedly, once you're at those shorter ranges, it becomes much more practical to just use an AGM-65D anyway 🙂 

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On 1/12/2022 at 12:46 AM, Caldera said:

 

The TacView inset was in the way of the MAV MFCD and unfortunately the text was too small for me to read.  For me, solo lasing it seems that it would likely miss if I shot outside of 8nm.  I noticed that you did fire with a good lock and at around 8nm on the MAV MFCD do you happen to remember what actual slant range was?

 

Just past the 8nm mark, getting the max. possible range was not part of that exercise.

If Range is your concern and you have a JTAC lasing for you, you can get a valid solution & hit your Target from 10nm out. This should in theory (not tested by me) also work with a buddy out front.

52d_Sig_Pic3.png

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  • 3 months later...

Hey All,

So it seems that some changes were made to this missile, at least to my perception / recollection. 

With the seeker head in search mode it seems that it will no longer look down as well as it did before.  For example, A-10C 15000 AGL TGP is SPI and laser is on, if the AGM-65L is put into search mode then it will not find the laser.  The seeker will oscillate back and forth at the center line.  I find that that in order to get a lock I have to either slew the seeker head down then put it back search mode or slave it to the SPI.  Another example, A-10C 8000 AGL TGP is SPI and laser is on, if the AGM-65L is put into search mode then it will find the laser.  The seeker head will slew down automatically to just below (half way to the bottom) the center line and then lock on.

Something new of just me?

So another thing that I was testing was attempting to fire in salvo.  Essentially firing one missile, waiting a  period of time and firing the second.  I would move the TGP sight after the first missile struck and engage two targets.  First off, this is difficult as the laser shuts off automatically right after the first missile hits.  But then it seems like the second missile time of flight is much shorter and this increases the difficulty.

AGM-65L 10.gif

AGM-65L 11.gif

Notice that the first missile is launched 19 seconds before the second, but the second missile hits 3 seconds after the first.  I seem to have noticed this same behavior with APKWS rockets as well.

Why would that be?

Caldera

 


Edited by Caldera
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Paladin,

OK thanks!

 

Another experiment and some pictures:

Time of Flight (TOF) indicator, it seems to hold 52 seconds until the range goes less than 8.1, where after that it will count down.  The missile actually hits about 3 seconds after the TOF = 0.  About that same time frame the TOF indication will flash as does the laser on indication.  The laser shuts off pretty close to just after that. 

AGM-65L 12.gif

First missile gone,  TOF was actually closer to 51 at launch.

AGM-65L 13.gif

Second missile gone, TOF was about 33 at launch.

AGM-65L 14.gif

The result...  The second missile hits 1 second after the first.  When I was watching in the TGP both missiles were in view simultaneously right before impact.

AGM-65L 15.gif

So...

I still can't make it work in my brain.  I have forgoten allot about physics and how to do such calculations.  So forgive me.  Given that the launching aircraft speed is constant for both launches.  Both missiles should have the same acceleration and de-acceleration characteristics.  And the launch spacing is about 1.6nm.  Additionally, the TOF indication seems almost linear when compared to the actual distance to target.

That is allot of ground to make up IMO, however both missiles are hitting in agreement with their respective TOF indication.

Baffling...

Not what I at first thought, and the AGM-65L is an improper weapon to salvo.

Caldera


Edited by Caldera
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OK...

So more goofing around.  I kept missing my target and I could not explain why.  My shots were falling short.  For some reason the laser is shutting off prior to impact and the missile misses.  I most easily reproduced this by going into a full power 10 degree climb after release.  The attached track shows a straight in climb with no turn.

Watch the track please.

Caldera

A-10C AGM-65L 01.trk

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On 5/4/2022 at 7:55 AM, Caldera said:

Hey All,

So it seems that some changes were made to this missile, at least to my perception / recollection. 

With the seeker head in search mode it seems that it will no longer look down as well as it did before.  For example, A-10C 15000 AGL TGP is SPI and laser is on, if the AGM-65L is put into search mode then it will not find the laser.  The seeker will oscillate back and forth at the center line.  I find that that in order to get a lock I have to either slew the seeker head down then put it back search mode or slave it to the SPI.  Another example, A-10C 8000 AGL TGP is SPI and laser is on, if the AGM-65L is put into search mode then it will find the laser.  The seeker head will slew down automatically to just below (half way to the bottom) the center line and then lock on.

Something new of just me?

So another thing that I was testing was attempting to fire in salvo.  Essentially firing one missile, waiting a  period of time and firing the second.  I would move the TGP sight after the first missile struck and engage two targets.  First off, this is difficult as the laser shuts off automatically right after the first missile hits.  But then it seems like the second missile time of flight is much shorter and this increases the difficulty.

On 5/5/2022 at 10:16 AM, Caldera said:

Time of Flight (TOF) indicator, it seems to hold 52 seconds until the range goes less than 8.1, where after that it will count down.  The missile actually hits about 3 seconds after the TOF = 0.  About that same time frame the TOF indication will flash as does the laser on indication.  The laser shuts off pretty close to just after that. 

  • I hadn't noticed the difference in look-down
  • Remember that the second missile will arrive faster because it has less distance to travel.  Maybe a more intuitive way to think about it is that is can keep its speed up because of a steeper dive angle than the first missile
  • Remember that the laser designator only goes out to a spot 8+ miles out, so the calculated TOF is to a point 8 nm slant range away, not actually at the target in your TGP (if the target is farther than 8 nm).

Edited by jaylw314
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On 5/5/2022 at 7:12 PM, Caldera said:

OK...

So more goofing around.  I kept missing my target and I could not explain why.  My shots were falling short.  For some reason the laser is shutting off prior to impact and the missile misses.  I most easily reproduced this by going into a full power 10 degree climb after release.  The attached track shows a straight in climb with no turn.

Watch the track please.

Caldera

A-10C AGM-65L 01.trk 972.55 kB · 0 downloads

I watched the track and saw that you damaged the infantry. I managed to damage an MTLB when i was practicing with an AGM-65L (well my first time shooting it really). I was off and corrected the TGP and damaged it by about 13%. I figured I had time to shoot the target with the slow missile flight time but I'll have to shoot more to get a feel and probably end up with the same result that you're coming up with.


Edited by EricJ

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Jay,

The 20 second delay between firing the first and the second missile seems like a lot of time to make up.  The TOF still bugs me a little.   I can no longer calculate the physics, so I have been pushing the easy button.

Eric,

The AGM-65L is one of the most potent weapons in DCS for the A-10C.  That is why I keep messing with it to some degree.  It has a really large blast radius in proportion to some other weapons.  You were actually missing by a good margin.

This is my DCS ONLY that has no relationship to REAL WORLD WEAPONS data chart:

AGM-65L 16.gif

As you can see, it can kill a BTR (BTR-80) that is 50 feet away from the impact center and a T-55 that is 25 feet away.  Also notice the large infantry hit and kill radius.  That is no small accomplishment if you take a look at how other weapons perform, for example 2000 pound bombs.

Caldera

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Yeah I agree with you on missing by a lot. It was my first and only shot (so far that day I flew it) so with more practice I'll get it right.

LOMAC Section| | Gaming Resume (PDF) | Gallery | Flanker2.51 Storage Site |

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"...parade ground soldiers always felt that way (contempt) about killers in uniform." -Counting The Cost, Hammer's Slammers

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Eric,

Hi!

This weapon can be and most often is very accurate.  I find that to be so, the laser must stay on and be on target (or very close) the entire time the missile is in flight.

The laser, as I described above, was timing out no more than about 3 seconds before impact.  And..  Those shots were clear misses.  But, they were also fired at near the maximum range of the missile.  If I fire at reduced ranges then the laser seems to not time out.  The stupid part seemed that if I fired two missiles in salvo, with the first at maximum range, then both missiles would miss.

 

The most common pitfalls for me are:

  • Masking
  • Time out

Try flying straight and level at the target until you can get 99.99% accuracy.  I am glad you became interested in learning how to use the AGM-65L.

Caldera

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