How do you use F18 to perform SEAD tasks?

[FrostLaufeyson]

In my recent exercises and tests, I found that HARM's PB mode is very fierce. With ECM, F18 can be suppressed to a very close range to launch HARM. SAM is almost powerless and difficult to intercept HARM in PB mode.

For short-range missiles, you can even use TGP and GBU-12 to clean up.

But air defense systems like the S300 usually have many search radars. HARM's PB mode will make all 4 missiles hit one radar, which is very wasteful. Is there a way to make these 4 missiles search for different targets? Otherwise, you have to hover 4 times, which is very inefficient.

We can also discuss other SEAD methods here. I really need to open up my mind.

 

 

[Shimmergloom667]

Very carefully

[FrostLaufeyson]

1小时前，Shimmergloom667说：

Very carefully

I know

[Ahmed]

Against an S-300+.... probably integrate that SEAD/DEAD flight into a larger package including many more HARM shooters, SOJ, TALD/MALD launchers, maybe TLAMs... all with a coordinated TOT plan and probably multiple attack axes.

Maybe one day.... for now in DCS a single hornet player can abuse the game's mechanics and score a hit relatively easy.

[Preendog]

1 hour ago, Ahmed said:

for now in DCS a single hornet player can abuse the game's mechanics and score a hit relatively easy.

It's worse than that.  Pop up and down until they waste all their shots, then go home.  That is if S-300 didn't already mag dump at a helicopter.

 

[Foka]

8 hours ago, FrostLaufeyson said:

But air defense systems like the S300 usually have many search radars. HARM's PB mode will make all 4 missiles hit one radar, which is very wasteful. Is there a way to make these 4 missiles search for different targets? Otherwise, you have to hover 4 times, which is very inefficient.

No. You have to launch missiles in separation of 20-30 seconds (or more), than HARM have time to change target, but best way is take out tracking radar first, then you can hit search radars even with gun 

[FrostLaufeyson]

10小时前，Ahmed说：

Against an S-300+.... probably integrate that SEAD/DEAD flight into a larger package including many more HARM shooters, SOJ, TALD/MALD launchers, maybe TLAMs... all with a coordinated TOT plan and probably multiple attack axes.

Maybe one day.... for now in DCS a single hornet player can abuse the game's mechanics and score a hit relatively easy.

So is the current SEAD task simulated badly?

I do find some weird ways to deal with these AI-controlled dumb air defenses with single hornet

[kotor633]

Hi,

Since I have very little experience with SEAD / DEAD in the game, I am also interested in the topic. But isn't it the best tactic to fly very high and instead of using the HARM prefer LGB / JDAMs to switch off the air defense? Especially since the S300 and the newer air defense systems can shoot down the HARM anyway? 

[FrostLaufeyson]

32分钟前，kotor633说：

Hi,

Since I have very little experience with SEAD / DEAD in the game, I am also interested in the topic. But isn't it the best tactic to fly very high and instead of using the HARM prefer LGB / JDAMs to switch off the air defense? Especially since the S300 and the newer air defense systems can shoot down the HARM anyway? 

Yes, the DCS air defense system does not intercept bombs. Even a bomb as big as Walleye would remain indifferent. Therefore, after knowing the exact location of the air defense unit, I will choose JDAM to clean up.

Although JDAM is a good choice in DCS, I don't think it will be done in reality (Meanwhile, I don't know how to deal with it in reality). So I spent some time studying how to make HARM break through the interception of air defense missiles. When you are at an altitude of 35,000 feet and have a speed of Mach 1, you can penetrate the enemy's air defense circle through ECM. At about 32 nautical miles, the enemy’s missile will be launched. At this time, you can choose PB mode and A/C mode to send the missile into the high altitude. And the missile will have enough energy to rush into the air defense circle.

However, HARM’s SP mode and TOO mode cannot have enough speed to rush in. These two modes will only fly horizontally and will not have a high-throw trajectory. 

Generally speaking, this kind of SEAD tasks requires a team to cooperate with the saturation strike, but I usually play alone in the PVE server. Therefore, when faced with a large number of air defense units, I often feel very helpless. Moreover, in the PVE server, the F10 map allows you to view the coordinates of enemy units. What I am more interested in now is how to perform SEAD tasks when only the approximate coordinates are known. I have seen someone use HARM to find ground targets, then mark them with TPOD, and finally clean them with JSOW. But for units with a long air defense range, JSOW will be intercepted, and JDAM cannot approach it. Even if the coordinates are determined by some method, you may not be able to identify the other party's radar model through RWR (HARM's PB mode requires a target code).

 

[Foka]

At Angels 35, making Mach 1, SA-10 will launch thru ECM from 34-32 nm. At this flight parameters GBU-38 has range ~19 nm, so you won't be able to use it.

Best option for SA-10/SA-5 is:
- Many planes with many HARMs
- Before launch try to bleed battery's missiles by triggering them to launch, and then trash them

[FrostLaufeyson]

13小时前，Foka说：

At Angels 35, making Mach 1, SA-10 will launch thru ECM from 34-32 nm. At this flight parameters GBU-38 has range ~19 nm, so you won't be able to use it.

Best option for SA-10/SA-5 is:
- Many planes with many HARMs
- Before launch try to bleed battery's missiles by triggering them to launch, and then trash them

Is there an option in the game editor to allow a launch vehicle to have an unlimited number of missiles? If so, I have to consider whether this will happen in the PVE server.

Constantly consuming enemy air defense missiles is indeed an interesting and weird method.

[FRANK_G]

JSOW might be a good alternative choice other than HARM when engaging long-range SAM, IMO

[Digitalvole]

I know this wouldn’t work with vanilla DCS sams, but when playing Liberation with the IADS script on one can fire a HARM or two at the SAM site to get it to turn off it’s radar. Once it’s off you usually have enough time to get close enough for a JDAM (if you’re high and fast enough) or a JSOW or 4 (safer option).

I launch some JSOWs then get my wingman to fire a couple of HARMs shortly after. This usually does the trick.

With SA10s I love flying in at below 50 feet and hitting the radar with a  AGM-65F. Terrain masking and tossing a JDAM works too. Of course in Liberation it is a bit “easy mode” as you have the exact coordinates of the various elements of the sam site.

In a situation with no coordinates and no IADS script surely old school super low nap of the earth flying is the best option? And a lot of fun  

[FrostLaufeyson]

24分钟前，FRANK_G说：

JSOW might be a good alternative choice other than HARM when engaging long-range SAM, IMO

JSOW is easily intercepted by missiles. It floats towards the target, so its speed is very slow.

[FrostLaufeyson]

8分钟前，Digitalvole说：

I know this wouldn’t work with vanilla DCS sams, but when playing Liberation with the IADS script on one can fire a HARM or two at the SAM site to get it to turn off it’s radar. Once it’s off you usually have enough time to get close enough for a JDAM (if you’re high and fast enough) or a JSOW or 4 (safer option).

I launch some JSOWs then get my wingman to fire a couple of HARMs shortly after. This usually does the trick.

With SA10s I love flying in at below 50 feet and hitting the radar with a  AGM-65F. Terrain masking and tossing a JDAM works too. Of course in Liberation it is a bit “easy mode” as you have the exact coordinates of the various elements of the sam site.

In a situation with no coordinates and no IADS script surely old school super low nap of the earth flying is the best option? And a lot of fun  

Does your 65F use pre-known coordinates? Compared with A10C, F18's Maverick is very cumbersome to use. If there is no coordinate known in advance, I think it is difficult to aim in such a short time after the leap.

In addition, I have heard people discuss how to execute SEAD in the IADS script. This script sounds very interesting and makes the SEAD task produce more interesting coping strategies.But I haven't encountered this script in the server I play.

[Digitalvole]

2 hours ago, FrostLaufeyson said:

Does your 65F use pre-known coordinates? Compared with A10C, F18's Maverick is very cumbersome to use. If there is no coordinate known in advance, I think it is difficult to aim in such a short time after the leap.

In addition, I have heard people discuss how to execute SEAD in the IADS script. This script sounds very interesting and makes the SEAD task produce more interesting coping strategies.But I haven't encountered this script in the server I play.

Yes it does have pre known coords in a Liberation campaign, (basically target designate waypoint and then uncage the mav and fire, the only issue I’ve had is the mav targets the wrong element of the sam site) and yes it would be a pain in the bum to try without them.

Sometimes it feels like the iads (skynet I think it’s called) script makes it too easy. I want to try and take out an sa10 with the Tomcat and mk82 snake eyes

[Coole28]

As Digitalvole said earlier, nap of the earth flying is often your best bet against SA-5s and SA-10s (as far as solo player DCS is concerned).  SA-5s will shoot you well outside of your HARM launch range regardless of ECM, and SA-10s will just swat your HARMs out of the sky.  Both of these sites also tend to have SHORAD defenses that will take out HARMs that have slowed down enough (i.e. long range shots). 

Below ~150 feet only SHORAD systems like an SA-15 or SA-19 can shoot at you, allowing you to get nice and close.  I’ll usual take a mixed loadout of HARMs and IR Mavericks/JSOWs.  At close range, HARMs go too fast to be shot down, which I use to my advantage to take out any SA-15/19s defending the site. Then switch to tpod+Maverick or JSOW to find and take out the track radar.  If I have difficulty finding the site, I’ll pop up and fly perpendicular to where the RWR is telling me the SAM site is and taunt the site to launch at me.  I’ll quickly set the SPI where I see the missile launch from with the JHMCS and dive back below 150 ft to break the lock.

I know a lot of people prefer to use JDAM lofting with this technique, but I personally find JDAMs to be too unreliable in DCS world.  Their margin of error is suspiciously high in game, and until splash damage is properly modeled there is a good chance your bomb will fail to neutralize the target.

[Raviar]

you need combination of HARM, JSOW, TALD, with two ships and more with correct tactics its pretty easy to take it out even in heavily defended env while SA-15 and SHORAD protecting it and even if u using Skynet

[Rom_un]

7 hours ago, FrostLaufeyson said:

Is there an option in the game editor to allow a launch vehicle to have an unlimited number of missiles? If so, I have to consider whether this will happen in the PVE server.

Constantly consuming enemy air defense missiles is indeed an interesting and weird method.

You can put an ammo truck near it. A circle on map will tell you witch units ares supported.

Try this mission : 

 

with Skynet IADS : https://github.com/walder/Skynet-IADS

 You can always try to find a tactic that use air defense weakness. If you don’t put AAA and manpad 15nm around the main site, it’s easy for helos and low flying wings.Try this mission with adding waves of F18 HARMs, ship’s tomahawk or B52 AGM-86C (invisible for S300)

 SEAD can be achieve with HARM and Skynet script as they turn radar of when they detect HARMs. With 4 HARM, you can force them to stay blind helping a second raid to get on target.

DEAD need SAM coordinates for targeting, this is the job of the new F-16 pod. They are so many other way IRL to get those coordinate (pods, satellite, ground observer…) that I don’t feel cheating when using it.

 

 

[FrostLaufeyson]

22小时前，Coole28说：

As Digitalvole said earlier, nap of the earth flying is often your best bet against SA-5s and SA-10s (as far as solo player DCS is concerned).  SA-5s will shoot you well outside of your HARM launch range regardless of ECM, and SA-10s will just swat your HARMs out of the sky.  Both of these sites also tend to have SHORAD defenses that will take out HARMs that have slowed down enough (i.e. long range shots). 

Below ~150 feet only SHORAD systems like an SA-15 or SA-19 can shoot at you, allowing you to get nice and close.  I’ll usual take a mixed loadout of HARMs and IR Mavericks/JSOWs.  At close range, HARMs go too fast to be shot down, which I use to my advantage to take out any SA-15/19s defending the site. Then switch to tpod+Maverick or JSOW to find and take out the track radar.  If I have difficulty finding the site, I’ll pop up and fly perpendicular to where the RWR is telling me the SAM site is and taunt the site to launch at me.  I’ll quickly set the SPI where I see the missile launch from with the JHMCS and dive back below 150 ft to break the lock.

I know a lot of people prefer to use JDAM lofting with this technique, but I personally find JDAMs to be too unreliable in DCS world.  Their margin of error is suspiciously high in game, and until splash damage is properly modeled there is a good chance your bomb will fail to neutralize the target.

So your strategy is to penetrate defenses at low altitudes, and then use HARM to neutralize air defense units during the leap? So what model of HARM are you using at this time?
For short-range air defense units, I think I have a clear answer, but I have never tried a low-altitude penetration.

[FrostLaufeyson]

19小时前，Rom_un说：

You can put an ammo truck near it. A circle on map will tell you witch units ares supported.

Try this mission : 

 

with Skynet IADS : https://github.com/walder/Skynet-IADS

 You can always try to find a tactic that use air defense weakness. If you don’t put AAA and manpad 15nm around the main site, it’s easy for helos and low flying wings.Try this mission with adding waves of F18 HARMs, ship’s tomahawk or B52 AGM-86C (invisible for S300)

 SEAD can be achieve with HARM and Skynet script as they turn radar of when they detect HARMs. With 4 HARM, you can force them to stay blind helping a second raid to get on target.

DEAD need SAM coordinates for targeting, this is the job of the new F-16 pod. They are so many other way IRL to get those coordinate (pods, satellite, ground observer…) that I don’t feel cheating when using it.

 

 

Thanks for your answer, I'll try it when I have free time

[Coole28]

33 minutes ago, FrostLaufeyson said:

So your strategy is to penetrate defenses at low altitudes, and then use HARM to neutralize air defense units during the leap? So what model of HARM are you using at this time?
For short-range air defense units, I think I have a clear answer, but I have never tried a low-altitude penetration.

Yep, flying low and fast is an infallible technique as far as DCS is concerned.  You’ll generally be immune to any surprise hidden air defenses on the way (i.e. manpads and other IR SAMs) if you fly low enough at full mil power.   Leap up at ~<10 nm from target, lock up with HARM, fire, turn out and dive back down to break any potential locks.  At that range, nothing can shoot down your HARM so you are almost guaranteed a kill.  If I’m planning on cleaning up the whole site, or if the server I’m on has the IAD script that causes the SAM to shut down after launch, i’ll use the HARMs to take out any SA-19 or SA-15s that may be guarding the site, and my other munitions for the main SAM radar and the other units.  If i’m just looking to neutralize the threat and there is no IAD script running, i’ll use the HARMs to engage the main SAM itself.
 

I’m assuming you meant “what harm MODE” in your question, not “MODEL”, as we only have the C model in DCS.  In this technique I’ll generally use SP mode for the HARMs, making sure to set the EW page so that RWR contacts show up on the HUD to ensure I’ve got the right  target locked.  TOO mode works as well, but it takes a bit longer for the HARM to find targets, which is inherently risky for this pop up technique.  PB doesn’t work for this technique since you are so close to the target.  It’s also worth noting I only use this technique against SA-10s, SA-5s, and Patriot sites.  Anything else you can PB with nothing but a tpod and your SA page, don’t even need to know the exact location of the site.  

[FrostLaufeyson]

20分钟前，Coole28说：

Yep, flying low and fast is an infallible technique as far as DCS is concerned.  You’ll generally be immune to any surprise hidden air defenses on the way (i.e. manpads and other IR SAMs) if you fly low enough at full mil power.   Leap up at ~<10 nm from target, lock up with HARM, fire, turn out and dive back down to break any potential locks.  At that range, nothing can shoot down your HARM so you are almost guaranteed a kill.  If I’m planning on cleaning up the whole site, or if the server I’m on has the IAD script that causes the SAM to shut down after launch, i’ll use the HARMs to take out any SA-19 or SA-15s that may be guarding the site, and my other munitions for the main SAM radar and the other units.  If i’m just looking to neutralize the threat and there is no IAD script running, i’ll use the HARMs to engage the main SAM itself.
 

I’m assuming you meant “what harm MODE” in your question, not “MODEL”, as we only have the C model in DCS.  In this technique I’ll generally use SP mode for the HARMs, making sure to set the EW page so that RWR contacts show up on the HUD to ensure I’ve got the right  target locked.  TOO mode works as well, but it takes a bit longer for the HARM to find targets, which is inherently risky for this pop up technique.  PB doesn’t work for this technique since you are so close to the target.  It’s also worth noting I only use this technique against SA-10s, SA-5s, and Patriot sites.  Anything else you can PB with nothing but a tpod and your SA page, don’t even need to know the exact location of the site.  

Sorry, that was my typing mistake. What I want to ask is indeed the "mode" question.

I now have a new question: I want to know if it is necessary to launch all four HARM missiles for a penetration. Because HARM in SP mode may all rush to the same radiation source, this is very wasteful. If it's like you said, nothing can intercept HARM. Then I would have to repeat this action four times in one flight, and fire one HARM each time.

[Coole28]

46 minutes ago, FrostLaufeyson said:

Sorry, that was my typing mistake. What I want to ask is indeed the "mode" question.

I now have a new question: I want to know if it is necessary to launch all four HARM missiles for a penetration. Because HARM in SP mode may all rush to the same radiation source, this is very wasteful. If it's like you said, nothing can intercept HARM. Then I would have to repeat this action four times in one flight, and fire one HARM each time.

In SP mode you can actually tell the HARM which radar source to track.  First step is to put EW information on the HUD (On the EW page, click the button next to “HUD”).  You should see all of your RWR contacts on your HUD now.  Then, when you have the HARM selected and in SP mode, one of the ground radar sources on your HUD will have a box around it.  That is the radar source your HARM will track when fired.  Pressing the “RAID/FLIR FOV” key binding will cycle your target amongst the viable sources (it will only target ground/sea based radar emitters).  You don’t need to lock the target like in TOO mode; whatever contact is boxed will be what the HARM tracks.  With practice, you can pickle off all your HARMs against different targets in a matter of seconds using SP mode.  

 

You might want to watch a video guide if my explanation isn’t sufficient.  Look up on youtube “DCS F-18 HARM SP mode”, I believe Grim Reapers has a pretty good tutorial on it.

[FrostLaufeyson]

12小时前，Coole28说：

In SP mode you can actually tell the HARM which radar source to track.  First step is to put EW information on the HUD (On the EW page, click the button next to “HUD”).  You should see all of your RWR contacts on your HUD now.  Then, when you have the HARM selected and in SP mode, one of the ground radar sources on your HUD will have a box around it.  That is the radar source your HARM will track when fired.  Pressing the “RAID/FLIR FOV” key binding will cycle your target amongst the viable sources (it will only target ground/sea based radar emitters).  You don’t need to lock the target like in TOO mode; whatever contact is boxed will be what the HARM tracks.  With practice, you can pickle off all your HARMs against different targets in a matter of seconds using SP mode.  

 

You might want to watch a video guide if my explanation isn’t sufficient.  Look up on youtube “DCS F-18 HARM SP mode”, I believe Grim Reapers has a pretty good tutorial on it.

Thank you for your patience.
I hardly used HARM's SP mode before, so I confuse the SP mode and Pullback Sub-Mode. In view of this, it is indeed a good strategy to use HARM's SP mode after the ultra-low altitude leap.