First Impressions and some feedback on the ATC

[MrDieing]

So I have purchased the Iron Flag campaign to act as a refresher course for me. I have flown the Hog for a few years, not exclusively but from time to time and would say I am able to perform any mission with it. Completed a few (DLC) campaigns with it aswell. Obviously not text-book and 100% realistic, but it gets the job done. Boy is this campaign a homerun if that is your experience with the Hog so far. Sure, the first mission goes over the start-up in great detail and I have started the Hog hundreds of times, but there is a lot of small details that rusted away in my procedures over the years. Same for the later missions. Functions and button you never touch and you go like: ''Ah, so that is how that works''. Brilliant! So far I have basically been flying straight on autopilot and listening to my IP with great interest. If that is your cup of tea, this campaign is for you.  Would not recommend this campaign for beginners on the Hog, but for the 'hardcore' pilot whom seeks to get everything out of their aircraft.

The overall concept does feel a bit weird to me. I can't imagine that it goes like this in the real world, where you are literally learning systems in the air. I believe they do this mostly in class-rooms and self-study, but I could be wrong, I am not a ANG A-10 pilot myself. Anyway, I am able to overlook this as obviously we are in DCS and besides it being the only method available at this moment, its also more fun to do then sitting in a class listening to a guy. Would not want to pay 10 bucks for that as a campaign.

Small thing: Would have loved to be able to use pre-set channels earlier then the campaign lets you, even if you have not been over the radio's extensively in a sortie. A lot of channel chrunching, especially with ATC at departure/recovery.

Anyway, the campaign really does what it advertises and I am confident that if you know how to operate the Hog in its basics, after this campaign you will be an absolute ace. Voice acting is really well done between Kermit and BIff, a pleasure to listen.

On to the feedback on the ATC and first something that is a real no-go in aviation

I believe on mission 3 the Tower controller goes: ''Cross runway 03 Romeo and hold short runway 03 Lima''. As someone who is active as a controller on a virtual civvie network, I gasped Absolute blasphemy. It obviously should be ''cross runway 03 Right and hold short runway 03 left'' I guess its also a bit on the voice actor, maybe he is unware of R/T procdures in ATC.

In one of the missions BIFF instructs me to switch to the next station. I believe this was from Approach to Tower when we were recovering into Nellis. We both casually leave a frequency on which a controller was giving us instructions earlier. Normally the controller would hand you off to the next station, maybe after a call from the flight that they are established on the ILS (if applicable) or they have the airfield/runway in sight.

Same for Silverbow Tower. I understand the decision for the orbit due to AI behaviour, but in any normal circumstance a Tower would not let 1 aircraft in a two-ship make orbits at 10.000 ft for spacing reasons. 10.000 ft would also be waaay above any 'Tower's airspace', although this could depend on airport elevation. There can be certain agreements that allow or facilitate this, but I dont think so in this case and its also a little to deep on the matter for now. I still went ahead and did as instructed only for Tower to give me the call ''At 5 miles, contact the Tower''. That is a really weird call to make for a Tower Controller. First and foremost, I am already on his frequency, so whom exactly do I need to contact at 5 miles, his collegae on a different Tower freq? He did not mention any frequency. Really confusing. Secondly, its not saying anything about what I am cleared to do within his airspace. I just assumed that I could start my approach and I believe that was what the campaign asked of me. He probably should have given me something like: ''Proceed straight in for runway 32, report final with the gear'' (as in gear down). Or maybe: ''Join initial for runway 32'' (which would mean we would fly the overhead pattern, but since we are not familiar nor based it would be unlikely that Tower would randomly give this out). The landing clearance there after was correct though. We also were not 'cleared' into his airspace to begin with and did not or only partially recieve basic information about the runway in use, QNH, maybe an ATIS letter and then additional instructions on how to proceed e.g. straight-in, joining downwind etc.

I understand that this might come across as nit-picky and probably most casual flyers would not even notice or care about the ATC part. It's just something I noticed and thought I wanted to share. I also realise that implementing stuff like this is quite the undertaking and one can discuss if the effort is worth it for it to be appreciated enough. But BD going into ATIS'es like he does I do think he likes to get this kinda stuff right.

In the end its not really a super big deal, but having it correct would only add to the immersion factor. I guess this is also a wider DLC-campaign matter. Some campaings try to do ATC correct, others make up stuff themselves and others don't bother at all with recording ATC lines from a script. I think the basic flying (VFR/IFR, R/T etc.) of the aircraft is often overlooked in most campaigns and focus more on the mission and how to accomplish it as succesful as possible. But oh well, can't have it all

In the end, definately a good campaign for those looking to up their BRRRRTT, would recommend!

 

 

 

Edited December 27, 2021 by MrDieing

[Doughboy]

Man where were you years back when we started writing this?!?!? In all seriousness though, of the all the folks I would have liked to have helping us, a controller would be second only to a current A-10 pilot! I wrote most of the ATC stuff and as you can tell, I'm not a pilot or controller. Some of the mistakes, and/or inaccuracies, are down to what we can and can't do within the ME, with AI as it is and also what we're doing. For instance, I can't have Kermit say "Departure Tusk 2 4 miles North passing 3 thousand for 6" because you may be at 3k or 1k or 15k when that VO is triggered... Some of the things you mentioned are us trying to put something together around the limfacs of DCS, and some of those solutions are less elegant than others (ILS part). There are also outright errors like the Lima and Romeo versus Left and Right thing. I've noticed some other things like "Tusk 3 cleared for takeoff" without mention of a runway number and some other nonsense that slipped past us and things I/we just don't know any better, more on that later. 

I've learned a tremendous amount about the whole ATC process in the past year. My current job has me flying with the plane I maintain here and there so sitting in the cockpit listening to that has highlighted a lot of things I would have wrote more better! I'm still learning. I learn every time we go out on a lunch and back. I learned a lot for your post above! For me the ATC is VERY high on the list to get right because getting it right adds so much to the experience for everyone especially those in the know! With that said, I definitely don't think you're nit-picking and I think it is worth it to get it right. 

Thank you for taking time out of your day to give us your feedback and for being candid about it!!! If you're up for it we sure could use your help fixing some of this and proofing Pt.2 scripts for us going forward! Like I said before, we've needed a controller for some time. Check your PMs.

 

-D 

Edited December 28, 2021 by Doughboy
Misspellings

[MrDieing]

Thanks for the reply, I completely understand there are limitations in DCS which would cause some awkward ATC situations. I have responded to your PM's. Thanks for the great work on the campaign!

[Ready]

On 12/27/2021 at 4:26 AM, MrDieing said:

So I have purchased the Iron Flag campaign to act as a refresher course for me. I have flown the Hog for a few years, not exclusively but from time to time and would say I am able to perform any mission with it. Completed a few (DLC) campaigns with it aswell. Obviously not text-book and 100% realistic, but it gets the job done. Boy is this campaign a homerun if that is your experience with the Hog so far. Sure, the first mission goes over the start-up in great detail and I have started the Hog hundreds of times, but there is a lot of small details that rusted away in my procedures over the years. Same for the later missions. Functions and button you never touch and you go like: ''Ah, so that is how that works''. Brilliant! So far I have basically been flying straight on autopilot and listening to my IP with great interest. If that is your cup of tea, this campaign is for you.  Would not recommend this campaign for beginners on the Hog, but for the 'hardcore' pilot whom seeks to get everything out of their aircraft.

The overall concept does feel a bit weird to me. I can't imagine that it goes like this in the real world, where you are literally learning systems in the air. I believe they do this mostly in class-rooms and self-study, but I could be wrong, I am not a ANG A-10 pilot myself. Anyway, I am able to overlook this as obviously we are in DCS and besides it being the only method available at this moment, its also more fun to do then sitting in a class listening to a guy. Would not want to pay 10 bucks for that as a campaign.

Small thing: Would have loved to be able to use pre-set channels earlier then the campaign lets you, even if you have not been over the radio's extensively in a sortie. A lot of channel chrunching, especially with ATC at departure/recovery.

Anyway, the campaign really does what it advertises and I am confident that if you know how to operate the Hog in its basics, after this campaign you will be an absolute ace. Voice acting is really well done between Kermit and BIff, a pleasure to listen.

On to the feedback on the ATC and first something that is a real no-go in aviation

I believe on mission 3 the Tower controller goes: ''Cross runway 03 Romeo and hold short runway 03 Lima''. As someone who is active as a controller on a virtual civvie network, I gasped Absolute blasphemy. It obviously should be ''cross runway 03 Right and hold short runway 03 left'' I guess its also a bit on the voice actor, maybe he is unware of R/T procdures in ATC.

In one of the missions BIFF instructs me to switch to the next station. I believe this was from Approach to Tower when we were recovering into Nellis. We both casually leave a frequency on which a controller was giving us instructions earlier. Normally the controller would hand you off to the next station, maybe after a call from the flight that they are established on the ILS (if applicable) or they have the airfield/runway in sight.

Same for Silverbow Tower. I understand the decision for the orbit due to AI behaviour, but in any normal circumstance a Tower would not let 1 aircraft in a two-ship make orbits at 10.000 ft for spacing reasons. 10.000 ft would also be waaay above any 'Tower's airspace', although this could depend on airport elevation. There can be certain agreements that allow or facilitate this, but I dont think so in this case and its also a little to deep on the matter for now. I still went ahead and did as instructed only for Tower to give me the call ''At 5 miles, contact the Tower''. That is a really weird call to make for a Tower Controller. First and foremost, I am already on his frequency, so whom exactly do I need to contact at 5 miles, his collegae on a different Tower freq? He did not mention any frequency. Really confusing. Secondly, its not saying anything about what I am cleared to do within his airspace. I just assumed that I could start my approach and I believe that was what the campaign asked of me. He probably should have given me something like: ''Proceed straight in for runway 32, report final with the gear'' (as in gear down). Or maybe: ''Join initial for runway 32'' (which would mean we would fly the overhead pattern, but since we are not familiar nor based it would be unlikely that Tower would randomly give this out). The landing clearance there after was correct though. We also were not 'cleared' into his airspace to begin with and did not or only partially recieve basic information about the runway in use, QNH, maybe an ATIS letter and then additional instructions on how to proceed e.g. straight-in, joining downwind etc.

I understand that this might come across as nit-picky and probably most casual flyers would not even notice or care about the ATC part. It's just something I noticed and thought I wanted to share. I also realise that implementing stuff like this is quite the undertaking and one can discuss if the effort is worth it for it to be appreciated enough. But BD going into ATIS'es like he does I do think he likes to get this kinda stuff right.

In the end its not really a super big deal, but having it correct would only add to the immersion factor. I guess this is also a wider DLC-campaign matter. Some campaings try to do ATC correct, others make up stuff themselves and others don't bother at all with recording ATC lines from a script. I think the basic flying (VFR/IFR, R/T etc.) of the aircraft is often overlooked in most campaigns and focus more on the mission and how to accomplish it as succesful as possible. But oh well, can't have it all

In the end, definately a good campaign for those looking to up their BRRRRTT, would recommend!

 

 

 

 

Good points! Noticed a couple of them too. I also strive to have it as realistic as possible, your comments are spot on.

 

On 12/28/2021 at 1:21 AM, Doughboy said:

Man where were you years back when we started writing this?!?!? In all seriousness though, of the all the folks I would have liked to have helping us, a controller would be second only to a current A-10 pilot! I wrote most of the ATC stuff and as you can tell, I'm not a pilot or controller. Some of the mistakes, and/or inaccuracies, are down to what we can and can't do within the ME, with AI as it is and also what we're doing. For instance, I can't have Kermit say "Departure Tusk 2 4 miles North passing 3 thousand for 6" because you may be at 3k or 1k or 15k when that VO is triggered... Some of the things you mentioned are us trying to put something together around the limfacs of DCS, and some of those solutions are less elegant than others (ILS part). There are also outright errors like the Lima and Romeo versus Left and Right thing. I've noticed some other things like "Tusk 3 cleared for takeoff" without mention of a runway number and some other nonsense that slipped past us and things I/we just don't know any better, more on that later. 

I've learned a tremendous amount about the whole ATC process in the past year. My current job has me flying with the plane I maintain here and there so sitting in the cockpit listening to that has highlighted a lot of things I would have wrote more better! I'm still learning. I learn every time we go out on a lunch and back. I learned a lot for your post above! For me the ATC is VERY high on the list to get right because getting it right adds so much to the experience for everyone especially those in the know! With that said, I definitely don't think you're nit-picking and I think it is worth it to get it right. 

Thank you for taking time out of your day to give us your feedback and for being candid about it!!! If you're up for it we sure could use your help fixing some of this and proofing Pt.2 scripts for us going forward! Like I said before, we've needed a controller for some time. Check your PMs.

 

-D 

 

Very cool and kudos to you for acknowledging the items and giving some explanation. Understand the limitations within the sim. We are all learning here and having a good time. Great job on the campaign!