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DSC is known for its accuracy to RL (real life)… Why the discrepancy in plane variants?


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4 hours ago, Ercoupe said:

The thing is, that's not what DCS is about. It's about flying high fidelity military airplanes.

Which turns it into a cockpit simulator. Once you've mastered flying from point A to point B, then maybe some aerobatics, it gets dull and boring. Campaigns are okay at bringing some of the game element, but it's lacking on account of the neglect shown to core game mechanisms, finicky with reliance on specific triggered conditions, and lacking replayability. DCS should be bridging the gap between high fidelity flight and systems modeling, and gaming.


Edited by Nealius
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5 hours ago, Ercoupe said:

The thing is, that's not what DCS is about. It's about flying high fidelity military airplanes. It's about the aircraft, in here. Not about the battles they fought. It's not about the Battle of Britain, Guadalcanal, the Yalu River or Operation Rolling Thunder. They build incredible flight simulator combat airplanes. People like Reflected give us campaigns to use them in. But ED is concerned with the hardware of aerial combat.

I like the approach, frankly. I don't want to see them turn into a "Great Battles" type of flight simulator. Let the guys at IL-2 do that. You can't get the complexity in the models that we have here, when you do that. It takes years to build a DCS airplane. In the same time IL-2 turns out a huge map, battles, a campaign and a dozen or so airplanes. That's fine, but I don't want that. 

My point of view as well. I came to accept and embrace DCS as first and foremost a simulation of cool aircraft, from anytime, anywhere and that's what I enjoy in it. As far as I am concerned, focusing on historical wars/theaters/periods/campaigns at the expense of other things that could be made but doesn't fit, would be huge loss.

That said though, it doesn't need to be 100% this or 100% that. I'd still love Battle of Britain aircraft added for example. As aircraft are built, things slowly add up. Also Razbam seems to make lots of fitting AI assets for their South Atlantic map, with the intent of turning many of them into flyable modules later on.

For me, very clearly, this doesn't take away from realism as implied in thread's title in any way, nor do I believe it to be a requirement to stick to realism. As long as depicted aircraft is done with utmost realism possible, I'm happy.

Similarly, as long as I can make scenarios in mission editor, simple and complex alike, I don't think boring cockpit simulator thing really occurs, at least not that dramatically. All that's really needed to make that even better is arrival of famed dynamic campaign imo.

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Since we have late war models, i see no point of modelin any battle of Britain planes or any planes at all in matter of fact, only thing we need is proper map for those planes that's it. This way is much easier no FM modelling needed, map is just much easier to do.

WW2 team is very small, modeling spit mk I and bf109 would take years, not even sure if this even possible, taking that team need extensive documentation on both planes to model them.

And i disagree with @Nealius that DCS is just cockpit simulator, there are servers online which provide great dogfight/ ground attack + campaign with progress saving, only ppl who are offended somehow that they are forced to fly K-4 over Normandy has problem with this, this is just imaginary problem.


Edited by grafspee

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48 minutes ago, Nealius said:

Mostly PvP, and reliant on online play. I'm primarily an SP player and occasional PvE. 

I remember that something like dynamic campaign is planned, but when this happen nobody knows i think

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3 hours ago, grafspee said:

Since we have late war models, i see no point of modelin any battle of Britain planes or any planes at all in matter of fact, only thing we need is proper map for those planes that's it. This way is much easier no FM modelling needed, map is just much easier to do.

WW2 team is very small, modeling spit mk I and bf109 would take years, not even sure if this even possible, taking that team need extensive documentation on both planes to model them.

And i disagree with @Nealius that DCS is just cockpit simulator, there are servers online which provide great dogfight/ ground attack + campaign with progress saving, only ppl who are offended somehow that they are forced to fly K-4 over Normandy has problem with this, this is just imaginary problem.

 

I think it's already "confirmed" by mr. Grey that early spit/109 will come at some point. But yes i agree about map, that would be best and easiest way to "straight up" things for now.

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On 12/31/2021 at 4:07 PM, Ercoupe said:

Considering the fact that we have a late model Mustang, late model Focke Wulf, and late model '109, I'd say you should be complaining about the Spitfire Mk9. Not the 109K. The Mk14 Spitfire should have been thrown into the mix. But guess what..the Luftwaffe guys would have been the ones crying, instead. Like somebody said, you aren't going to make everybody happy.

But the Anton helped even things up, timeframe wise for the Spit. I love the Spit. I just simply don't fly it against the Kurfurst. If you want to, just knock their talent down a couple of notches, in the editor. Lower them down to trained (I think that's what it's called) or even rookies. And go kill'em. In the last year of the war, that's what most of them would have been anyway!

Plenty of Spit IXs with the RAF in 1945, just not quite the version we have. The XIV was a rare bird, ten IXs for every single XIV almost. The XIV was a hot rod and flying them was a job for the best pilots, guys not suited were RTUd back to the IX squadrons in quick order. As a Spitfire fan it would be interesting to have the XIV in DCS just to see how different it feels to the IX.

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There are two straightforward things ED could do to sort the situation out:

1) Spitfire XIV (or teardrop canopy XVI with 25lbs boost and clipped wings)

2) A Germany map.

The rest of the plane set is perfectly appropriate for Q1 1945. Why the only WWII maps are themed around late June 1944 and mid-1940 baffles me.

The 1942 Spitfire IXB we have now is a good fit for the Normandy map, as is the Fw190A8 and P-47D if you stretch the imagination a little. It's totally outclassed by the Me109K and Fw190D, which makes historical mission design very constrained.

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8 hours ago, Skewgear said:

There are two straightforward things ED could do to sort the situation out:

1) Spitfire XIV (or teardrop canopy XVI with 25lbs boost and clipped wings)

2) A Germany map.

The rest of the plane set is perfectly appropriate for Q1 1945. Why the only WWII maps are themed around late June 1944 and mid-1940 baffles me.

The 1942 Spitfire IXB we have now is a good fit for the Normandy map, as is the Fw190A8 and P-47D if you stretch the imagination a little. It's totally outclassed by the Me109K and Fw190D, which makes historical mission design very constrained.


With the aircraft we have, and will probably get in future, a WW2 Germany map would make sense. A Cold War version for Fulda Gap scenarios would be good also.

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I like ED's approach quite a lot, and I feel they have learned a lot about which variants to model. I think in the next couple of years we will see a lot of aircraft coming to flesh out the current roster. It's a shame they didn't do the 109 G-6 imo, but it is what it is.

 

I think we have enough modules to do some really interesting WWII, Cold War, and Modern scenarios now. If you go back even a couple years we were way behind the current situation. We are in a good place now, and we are gonna keep getting better. 

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About WW2 on DCS:
- P-51D was build by Yo-Yo as a test bed before DCS World on 2012 to test the feasibility to build a propeller aircraft on DCS, with the colaboration of Nick Grey and The Fighter Collection. On thats moment was none plan to build a WW2 scenery on the birth DCS.
- On 2013 appear Ilya Shevchenko, with a project to build a Standalone product use the DCS engine to recreate WW2 battles, building a KickStarted. On them appears airplanes as Spirtfire Mk.IX, Bf-109K-4, Fw-190D-9, P-47 and Me262 and the Normandy map (and talking if reach, to build more aircrats). The ED P-51D was added to the project. The KS has founded and the Ilya team start the project, but get to Bankrupt and ED rescue the project. On that moment, ED was none plans to build a WW2 into DCS.
- ED inject money on the project and continue with the project add them as official to DCS World. The problem, many of the aircrafts promise by Ilya missing data, and ED has need years of extend research to put them into the simulator as the P-47, and actually the Me262 (the only missing aircraft of the KS). The WW2 assets pack has other product, build by part of the KS team, integrated into DCS World. Ugra Media, a 3rd party build the KS Normandy map (and actually, has building a expansion). 
- The only aircrafts build by ED to WW2 outside the KS has been the Fw-190A-8 and the Mosquito FB.VI by Nick Grey and has planned future aircrafts (rumors about F6F ot pacific theatre and BoB aircrafts. The Channel map has actually a "testbed" to new map technology, and with the Normandy expansion, your future status has unkonow. WW2 Assets pack, continue expanded.
- Other 3rd parties has moving to build more WW2 aircrafts as Magnitude 3 and your F4u Corsair with a pacific assets pack and Octopus-G with your I-16 Type 24 and your future module planned. A planned Iwo Jima map by M3, was never confirmed.

Remember, the modules has builded based on the info available and the resources.


Edited by Silver_Dragon
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1 hour ago, Silver_Dragon said:

About WW2 on DCS:
- P-51D was build by Yo-Yo as a test bed before DCS World on 2012 to test the feasibility to build a propeller aircraft on DCS, with the colaboration of Nick Grey and The Fighter Collection. On thats moment was none plan to build a WW2 scenery on the birth DCS.
- On 2013 appear Ilya Shevchenko, with a project to build a Standalone product use the DCS engine to recreate WW2 battles, building a KickStarted. On them appears airplanes as Spirtfire Mk.IX, Bf-109K-4, Fw-190D-9, P-47 and Me262 and the Normandy map (and talking if reach, to build more aircrats). The ED P-51D was added to the project. The KS has founded and the Ilya team start the project, but get to Bankrupt and ED rescue the project. On that moment, ED was none plans to build a WW2 into DCS.
- ED inject money on the project and continue with the project add them as official to DCS World. The problem, many of the aircrafts promise by Ilya missing data, and ED has need years of extend research to put them into the simulator as the P-47, and actually the Me262 (the only missing aircraft of the KS). The WW2 assets pack has other product, build by part of the KS team, integrated into DCS World. Ugra Media, a 3rd party build the KS Normandy map (and actually, has building a expansion). 
- The only aircrafts build by ED to WW2 outside the KS has been the Fw-190A-8 and the Mosquito FB.VI by Nick Grey and has planned future aircrafts (rumors about F6F ot pacific theatre and BoB aircrafts. The Channel map has actually a "testbed" to new map technology, and with the Normandy expansion, your future status has unkonow. WW2 Assets pack, continue expanded.
- Other 3rd parties has moving to build more WW2 aircrafts as Magnitude 3 and your F4u Corsair with a pacific assets pack and Octopus-G with your I-16 Type 24 and your future module planned. A planned Iwo Jima map by M3, was never confirmed.

Remember, the modules has builded based on the info available and the resources.

 

Thanks for the reminder 🙂

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2 hours ago, Silver_Dragon said:

About WW2 on DCS:
- P-51D was build by Yo-Yo as a test bed before DCS World on 2012 to test the feasibility to build a propeller aircraft on DCS, with the colaboration of Nick Grey and The Fighter Collection. On thats moment was none plan to build a WW2 scenery on the birth DCS.
- On 2013 appear Ilya Shevchenko, with a project to build a Standalone product use the DCS engine to recreate WW2 battles, building a KickStarted. On them appears airplanes as Spirtfire Mk.IX, Bf-109K-4, Fw-190D-9, P-47 and Me262 and the Normandy map (and talking if reach, to build more aircrats). The ED P-51D was added to the project. The KS has founded and the Ilya team start the project, but get to Bankrupt and ED rescue the project. On that moment, ED was none plans to build a WW2 into DCS.
- ED inject money on the project and continue with the project add them as official to DCS World. The problem, many of the aircrafts promise by Ilya missing data, and ED has need years of extend research to put them into the simulator as the P-47, and actually the Me262 (the only missing aircraft of the KS). The WW2 assets pack has other product, build by part of the KS team, integrated into DCS World. Ugra Media, a 3rd party build the KS Normandy map (and actually, has building a expansion). 
- The only aircrafts build by ED to WW2 outside the KS has been the Fw-190A-8 and the Mosquito FB.VI by Nick Grey and has planned future aircrafts (rumors about F6F ot pacific theatre and BoB aircrafts. The Channel map has actually a "testbed" to new map technology, and with the Normandy expansion, your future status has unkonow. WW2 Assets pack, continue expanded.
- Other 3rd parties has moving to build more WW2 aircrafts as Magnitude 3 and your F4u Corsair with a pacific assets pack and Octopus-G with your I-16 Type 24 and your future module planned. A planned Iwo Jima map by M3, was never confirmed.

Remember, the modules has builded based on the info available and the resources.

 

Thanks for the summary.

People show often antipathy to the Kickstarter project, but forget, that there would probably only be the Mustang and Dora in the shop without the failed KS. It kickstarted the whole DCS WWII project.

 

Just a little correction. The Fw190D-9 is an original ED module. It was not part of the KS project. And it would have ended probably the same way as the MiG-15 and F-86, no map, no assets.

And a little addition. The KS planned P-47 was a D-28


Edited by iFoxRomeo
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13 minutes ago, iFoxRomeo said:

Just a little correction. The Fw190D-9 is an original ED module. It was not part of the KS project. And it would have ended probably the same way as the MiG-15 and F-86, no map, no assets.

And a little addition. The KS planned P-47 was a D-28

 

Sorry, I missing the Fw190, was a ED project... The KS was some "targets" now erase from the web, some about build a pilotable B-17 and other bomber (that milestone was never reach).

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On 1/12/2022 at 2:54 PM, iFoxRomeo said:

People show often antipathy to the Kickstarter project, but forget, that there would probably only be the Mustang and Dora in the shop without the failed KS. It kickstarted the whole DCS WWII project.

Yep, I always say that despite the inconveniences at so many levels, for ED, for backers, and all, but we should thank RRG dropped the thing and ED took over the project to make it up to ED standards… Who knows what could have turned out in the end with such a bad project management as Luthier provided.

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On 12/27/2021 at 2:13 PM, Doughguy said:
On 12/27/2021 at 11:07 AM, flygav said:

One side would have the advantage in performance for just a short time until improvements were made. In the end it was well known all the planes were petty much equal in performance. 

Sorry thats just an obvious contradiction... you make a correct statement and then negate it in the next sentence.

Let me clarify... they were equal i.e. Spit 14 vs 109k4 etc. Spit 9 was outclassed by then.  

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In the end of the day I guess we are lucky to even have any WW2... I remember when it was just those stinking BVR jets. Not very personal like an up close dogfight. Not to mention if I wanted to learn all the computerized flight and radar I would have joined the stinking air force and flown a real bird for the same about of training lol. 

These are the early days for DCS WW2, someday there will be all the models, P38s, Yaks, KIs Tempests etc. And 50 cals that actually do the damage in the historic gun cams instead of these pelt guns. 

Until then we can all b**&&! lol 

 

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They should have decided on a specific year, say 1943, and made modules of planes that actually operated in the same time frame, as well as fitting AI planes for the same period. I think it would at least make more sense if you intend to have the different modules fight eachother.

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33 minutes ago, yngvef said:

They should have decided on a specific year, say 1943, and made modules of planes that actually operated in the same time frame, as well as fitting AI planes for the same period. I think it would at least make more sense if you intend to have the different modules fight eachother.

I would love a Battle of Britain era set of aircraft. Though it would be quite limiting multiplayer gameplay wise and even single player it will always be my ultimate wish for WW2 simulation. That said I am enjoying the later era aircraft we have in single player. DCS is many things to many people, getting to fly a number of cool military aircraft and blow stuff up and get blown up just keeps delivering for me but if it was a simulation of 1943 WW2 I would probably be saying they got the wrong year!

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20 hours ago, Baldrick33 said:

I would love a Battle of Britain era set of aircraft. Though it would be quite limiting multiplayer gameplay wise and even single player it will always be my ultimate wish for WW2 simulation. That said I am enjoying the later era aircraft we have in single player. DCS is many things to many people, getting to fly a number of cool military aircraft and blow stuff up and get blown up just keeps delivering for me but if it was a simulation of 1943 WW2 I would probably be saying they got the wrong year!

+1 for Battle of Britain. Considering online gaming does really, really well when the level of action is heightened/maintained, a massive dog fight scenario would be well suited for a MP server. But where DCS gets it mostly wrong IMO is restricting assets according to the date/period of a map. I think they would be much better served to use maps in a more general sense, and add assets in adversarial pairs (one red/one blue). Because even if the intention is to be able to create historically accurate battles in terms of time/place/assets, there is so much missing that the user is still very limited in what can be created. You still have to improvise a lot anyway.

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On 1/15/2022 at 7:43 PM, Baldrick33 said:

I would love a Battle of Britain era set of aircraft. Though it would be quite limiting multiplayer gameplay wise and even single player it will always be my ultimate wish for WW2 simulation. That said I am enjoying the later era aircraft we have in single player. DCS is many things to many people, getting to fly a number of cool military aircraft and blow stuff up and get blown up just keeps delivering for me but if it was a simulation of 1943 WW2 I would probably be saying they got the wrong year!

Yeah, 1943 was just an example, not really a thought-out suggestion 🙂

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On 1/15/2022 at 6:43 PM, Baldrick33 said:

I would love a Battle of Britain era set of aircraft. Though it would be quite limiting multiplayer gameplay wise and even single player it will always be my ultimate wish for WW2 simulation. That said I am enjoying the later era aircraft we have in single player. DCS is many things to many people, getting to fly a number of cool military aircraft and blow stuff up and get blown up just keeps delivering for me but if it was a simulation of 1943 WW2 I would probably be saying they got the wrong year!

1943 would be a fantastic year for modelling WWII combat aviation. In the Libyan desert the RAF was testing and developing the cab rank system for ground controlled close air support, the grandaddy of all CAS today. The USAAF was honing mass daylight bomber raids over Germany escorted all the way there and back. The Luftwaffe was carrying out tip and run raids on the southern English coast and vice versa for the RAF over France. Malta was a crucible of air power for both sides. Radar was coming into its own with aircraft mounted sets in nightfighters and the Kammhuber Line was a well practised operation against RAF Bomber Command.

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Hopefully we get the Spitfire Mk.XIV, F4U4 and Tempest etc at some point, it would be truly amazing.

I am still waiting anxiously for the Me262A1 though, really would love to have that bird in the sim - eventhough, yes I know, it's not very "balanced" vs the Allied aircraft currently available.

If we're lucky ED soon decides to take on one of the Allied beasties I mentioned before though. I think the Spitfire Mk.XIV would be a good choice, as I suspect it could be developed a lot quicker thanks to already having the Mk.IX base. Good thing is that there are also a lot of flying Griffon engined spits around, so modelling its FM as accurately as possible should be easier than say for example a Mosquito or Fw190.

Other than that, I'm looking forward to trying the F4U-1 by Magnitude, should be more capable in a dogfight than the P-51, so that's something.


Edited by Hummingbird
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