Team Balance in Multiplayer

[Cab]

I would like to see a built-in function that would allow server admins to easily enforce team balancing. As I understand it admins must currently write custom script if they want to do that.

[SharpeXB]

Due to the complexity of the aircraft, many players won’t want to be forced onto a side if that means being forced into an unfamiliar aircraft. Players may not own the other coalition’s modules. So automatic team balancing isn’t practical for DCS unless teams all featured the same modules. And that’s rather confusing having identical aircraft go up against each other.

[Cab]

Don't be so negative. There are lots of variables that can go into "balancing" teams, and of course, server admins would have the ultimate choice of using any of the options or not. 

Have faith! It can be done! 

[Furiz]

Since DCS is a simulation of real world aircraft there cant be balance cause there is no balance in real world. Some airforce is more advanced and some are still using 80s jets, some are huge in numbers while others are low in numbers, there is no airforce with equal strenght in the world.

ED even said balance is not something they are trying to achieve, they do what ever aircraft they can. No matter which side its on.

[SharpeXB]

52 minutes ago, Cab said:

Don't be so negative. There are lots of variables that can go into "balancing" teams, and of course, server admins would have the ultimate choice of using any of the options or not. 

Have faith! It can be done! 

How do you figure this would work? Given that players don’t own or know how to fly every module. You can’t place people on a team without considering that. And as there are more modules available it becomes necessary and better for each faction to have different aircraft just as in reality. F-16s vs F-18s, Hinds vs Apaches etc. Putting identical aircraft on opposing sides creates IFF problems. Back when there were very few modules there was a P-51 vs P-51 server but we’ve moved past that. 

Edited January 1, 2022 by SharpeXB

[Cab]

6 minutes ago, Furiz said:

Since DCS is a simulation of real world aircraft there cant be balance cause there is no balance in real world. Some airforce is more advanced and some are still using 80s jets, some are huge in numbers while others are low in numbers, there is no airforce with equal strenght in the world.

ED even said balance is not something they are trying to achieve, they do what ever aircraft they can. No matter which side its on.

Define "balance"

[razo+r]

9 hours ago, Cab said:

I would like to see a built-in function that would allow server admins to easily enforce team balancing. As I understand it admins must currently write custom script if they want to do that.

Define balance

Does it include induvidial skill of the player? 

Is kicking/banning part of your imagination of balance? 

Edited January 1, 2022 by razo+r

[Cab]

7 minutes ago, razo+r said:

Define balance

Does it include induvidial skill of the player? 

Is kicking/banning part of your imagination of balance? 

 

No, I am not the one to define "balance" because I don't run a server. However, I know of at least one PvP server that has right in their briefing, "Maintain Balanced Teams (numbers & skill)", so I assume he would use such options if available. But I would leave it to them tell ED what they want, if they even want it at all.

You guys on the other hand are just spring loaded to "NO!!!" without even any details, and quite frankly unless you run a server than I think your opinion counts as much as mine, which is zero. I'm just throwing the idea out there in case some server admins like it.

[razo+r]

You ask for balance but refuse to define your idea of balance, or ask for a feature without knowing any background. That is as good as a bug report without any details. 

Asking for balance does in fact not require you to run a server. 

You leave it to the admins of servers to ask for things yet open a thread asking for a tool for balancing MP. 

You assume we are saying No yet nobody of us said No. 

I personally do run a server from time to time and I do create the missions with balance in mind, but unlike PvP missions, PvE missions are much easier to balance as there are fewer variables taking part into "balancing" the game. 

[=475FG= Dawger]

10 hours ago, Cab said:

I would like to see a built-in function that would allow server admins to easily enforce team balancing. As I understand it admins must currently write custom script if they want to do that.

I hope we never see this in DCS

[Cab]

30 minutes ago, razo+r said:

You assume we are saying No yet nobody of us said No.

You are correct, sir. You did not say, no.

Just now, =475FG= Dawger said:

I hope we never see this in DCS

But what if ten server admins said they would use such a thing? Would you deny them the option?

[SharpeXB]

49 minutes ago, Cab said:

I know of at least one PvP server that has right in their briefing, "Maintain Balanced Teams (numbers & skill)"

How are players supposed to balance “skill” with one another?

[=475FG= Dawger]

4 minutes ago, Cab said:

You are correct, sir. You did not say, no.

But what if ten server admins said they would use such a thing? Would you deny them the option?

Absolutely. It is a horrid idea for an air combat simulation. 

Doing things like this in order to protect fragile egos would spell the end of DCS. 

Air combat should be about teamwork not lone wolf ego trips. 
 

Side balancing would punish those who wish to operate together and reward less cooperation for no tangible benefit. 

[Cab]

I don't know. I didn't write that rule.

But obviously it's something the server admin had in mind. Do you think maybe ED should ask him?

2 minutes ago, =475FG= Dawger said:

Absolutely. It is a horrid idea for an air combat simulation. 

Doing things like this in order to protect fragile egos would spell the end of DCS. 

Air combat should be about teamwork not lone wolf ego trips. 
 

Side balancing would punish those who wish to operate together and reward less cooperation for no tangible benefit. 

So you get to dictate how a person can run their own server?

That sounds harsh. How about a compromise and you just don't play on those servers that are doing it so wrong.

Edited January 1, 2022 by Cab

[=475FG= Dawger]

4 minutes ago, Cab said:

I don't know. I didn't write that rule.

But obviously it's something the server admin had in mind. Do you think maybe ED should ask him?

So you get to dictate how a person can run their own server?

That sounds harsh. How about a compromise and you just don't play on those servers that are doing it so wrong.

 

You are the one who specifically asked me if I would deny this. All I did was answer your question. Don’t ask a question if the answer may upset you. A valuable life lesson. 

[Cab]

2 minutes ago, =475FG= Dawger said:

You are the one who specifically asked me if I would deny this. All I did was answer your question. Don’t ask a question if the answer may upset you. A valuable life lesson. 

Upset? No, not upset. Just astounded at the attitude.

But thanks for your honestly (I think).

[=475FG= Dawger]

1 minute ago, Cab said:

Upset? No, not upset. Just astounded at the attitude.

But thanks for your honestly (I think).

You are welcome. 

[upyr1]

3 hours ago, Furiz said:

Since DCS is a simulation of real world aircraft there cant be balance cause there is no balance in real world. Some airforce is more advanced and some are still using 80s jets, some are huge in numbers while others are low in numbers, there is no airforce with equal strenght in the world.

ED even said balance is not something they are trying to achieve, they do what ever aircraft they can. No matter which side its on.

He isn't taking about balancing the aircraft but balancing the teams so you can have an equal number of players. This would work out fine in a red flag scenario where the red team and blue team are flying the same aircraft but outside of this, it becomes a mess. I would rather see an option where ai can fly client aircraft that go unclaimed. Though it could work for private servers or just looking for a random fight in your favorite fighter

Edited January 1, 2022 by upyr1

[razo+r]

4 hours ago, Cab said:

You are correct, sir. You did not say, no.

 

I didnt. I asked you to define balance and what it includes in your opinion. Still waiting on that answer though. 

[upyr1]

7 minutes ago, razo+r said:

I didnt. I asked you to define balance and what it includes in your opinion. Still waiting on that answer though. 

I might not be the person who started the thread but i assumed they meant an equal number of players on both sides. The only way I could see that working for a public mixed plane server would be a quick connect button where you could pick the AC then click go and join some public server Without that you would have to use the feature with private servers 

Edited January 1, 2022 by upyr1

[Cab]

20 minutes ago, razo+r said:

I didnt. I asked you to define balance and what it includes in your opinion. Still waiting on that answer though. 

Keep waiting because my opinion doesn't count because I don't have a server. I'd rather hear from actual server admins as to: 1. Is that a capability they would want; and 2. What type of balance control would they like to exercise.

In fact I'd go so far to say that the only opinions that count are those that would actually use the option. A negative answer would only mean the server admin would chose not to use it. Optional does mean "not compulsory".

Edited January 1, 2022 by Cab

[cfrag]

Here's the part that I don't understand: when server admins want to exert that kind of control over their players, what makes them think that people would stay on such a server? If people come to my server to have fun and can't hash it out amongst themselves, why on earth would my enforcing a rule that they obviously don't want make this any better? Yes, it's my ball and I can take it and go home. My server - my rules, fine. But when people on my server can't be bothered to balance their teams and are having a blast, I'm surely not going to step in. If they hate being on my server, they'll leave anyway. 

That being said, there may also be some practical limitations - if blue and red use different models, some players may only be able to sign up for one side. Balancing teams (I understand this meaning that a third party (server admin, script) can assigning slots to players or at the least restrict slot availability to players) may simply result in inconvenience to the players with little added value. I trust my players and their ability to work this out. Kids do it on the schoolyard every day. I'm confident us grown-ups can do it without oversight on a server as well. Am I too optimistic?

[Tippis]

As a general option for any kind of MP game, it's a blindingly obvious one to have.

Its use case is a bit more narrow in DCS than in most games, though, since the stuff you can fly is inherently unbalanced - that's kind of the whole point of the planes to begin with.
That said, it becomes a bit of an issue when trying to decide where it goes. Normally, this would sound like an obvious candidate for a server option, but seeing as how the server has no idea how the mission is set up, and whether balancing is even possible for a given mission, it might have to be a mission option instead (or maybe even a WP0 option: only allow clients to occupy this slot with balanced teams). The question then becomes one of whether that's necessarily something the mission (or WP) can even control properly. Scripting solutions exist to limit the use of slots, so there's some hope there, but it needs to be either rock solid and well-implemented, with some kind of tolerable ratios and the like, or it might as well be left a scripting solution for the mission-maker to include and tweak that way.

So it's blindingly obvious, but its very limited use case also raises the question of how necessary it even is given all the other constraints and the general MP ecosystem. The audience appeal seems less of an issue: it's a special-event kind of thing, and it will be entirely self-selecting. The people who want it will gravitate to the servers (or events / missions) that use it. If it's mission- or WP-based, in particular, it even more clearly signals that this is something that can be swapped out pretty darn trivially, and it's up to the mission-maker to make sure that enough slots of enough types with enough "module balance" between them are available. It would be complete folly to even try to make that something automated and out of the mission-maker's hands.

I can certainly see it being stuck on some of the dogfight/gunfight arenas we're running, but it would also be exactly that: a special event setting rather than something that necessarily is on all the time. Sometimes, you want even teams of Viper vs Viper; other times, you want a dozen of one vs two of the other, and if and when it is used, it really needs to be dictated by the mission design (and thus the mission designer) and nothing else.

[shagrat]

vor 11 Stunden schrieb Cab:

You guys on the other hand are just spring loaded to "NO!!!" without even any details, and quite frankly unless you run a server than I think your opinion counts as much as mine, which is zero. I'm just throwing the idea out there in case some server admins like it.

There were a lot of details to why this is problematic to say the least.

As everybody can host a game for his buddies, everybody's opinion counts at least(!) as much as yours.

And you brought up the concept of balance, without even a marginal explanation to what it would look like, or how it should work. (...)"enforce team balancing"(...) is a very broad term.

It could be to simply add 4 MiG-21 slots for each F-16 slot. Or enforcing the same number of players on both sides, so a "well balanced" 4 F/A-18C vs. 4 L-39C... So the question is absolutely valid: how do you imagine this "balance" should work in DCS?

Any suggestions?

 

Edited January 1, 2022 by shagrat

[cfrag]

51 minutes ago, Tippis said:

it really needs to be dictated by the mission design (and thus the mission designer) and nothing else

I think that's the crux of the matter. It would take me only a few minutes to whip up a script that blocks all slots of side R when that side has an overhang of some 2 planes, and conversely block all slots of side B when that side has the advantage. That's easy. The problem is that any dissimilar setups aren't supported or require complex rules that makes such a script ineffective or plain wrong. 

I'm still not sold on the reasons why we need an enforcement, though. The designer can recommend, the players can choose to follow the recommendation. Or they choose to play a lesser experience if they don't follow the recommendations.

Edited January 1, 2022 by cfrag