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More Detailed Jamming Calculations


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As currently implemented, a jamming aircraft cannot be seen by the radar until entering 29NM. Other airframes like the F-15 and F-18 can see jamming aircraft well outside of their own detection range due to the obvious nature of noise jammers. However, the F-16's radar fails to even see the jamming until getting into 29 miles at which point you'd be able to lock up the target anyways.

Tested on: Private multiplayer server
Test subjects: all players
Map: Caucuses
Game version: 2.7.9.18080

 

Alamo_Training_V6-20220105-154111.trk

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  • 4 weeks later...

It depends on the aircraft does it not ?
J11's and JF17 are indeed invisible. 

But i think F16 and hornet can be seen when they are jamming?

I am not sure on what i said above but i do notice indeed that J11 (or JF17) just vanish from radar completely when they turn jamming on. Then re-appear at burn through

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I would've thought the detection range of jamming targets would depend upon the received power of the jamming signal, which obviously depends on how powerful the jammer is.

Once inside the burn-through range (where the received power of the skin return > the received power of the jamming signal), it should be possible to resolve the jamming target once the signal to jamming ratio is sufficiently high enough (though not sure if the F-16's RADAR goes into enough fidelity for this).

 

EDIT: I'm not seeing the same thing, I set up a Tu-22M3 over 90 nmi away, with its ECM set to always use, I picked up an AOJ contact almost immediately, beyond 80 nmi.

The target became resolved at about ~10 nmi.

Without jamming, the target is picked up at ~75 nmi.

F-16CM_jamming_target_range.trk F-16CM_non_jamming_target_range.trk


Edited by Northstar98
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  • 3 months later...

I dont know where to start, so i made a few test. The mission is simple: A single bandit flying high ~50,000 ft @ Mach 1.0 in a J-11 set to ACE difficulty. The parameters for the AI were: - use radar for attacking only, - use ECM always, - missile attack range random between max and no escape zone. Fully loaded with ET`s and ER`s, ecm pods.

On the other hand me, in a single F-16 with 6 amraams only, no pods, no fuel tanks. Starting at low ~ 6000 ft. Made two flights to test the radar in TWS to see what kind of behavior i get out of the radar.

The aircrafts were set 50nmi apart from each other, mind you the altitude difference. Fly straight, in a fast climb and play with the radar elevation. Had no problem picking up the jamming contact, even was able ""bug it"" but not bug it. Dont know how to explain it, where it just tracking it but waiting more data ?? - Anyways, i see that the FCR is showing contact that is jamming and has no ranging, and no ??altitude information?? but the in the HSD it shows the range exactly at 50 nmi. Between each test, the radar was able burn thru the jamming signal and was able to fire ranging somewhere between 29-25 nmi. I didnt maneuver by the book after the fox3, because this is just testing.

I didnt go on full details, so you might see more things that arent working as advertised, so feel free to make comments on that to keep this rolling forward to help the devs out. 

Cheers!

Im including 2 video links with the corresponding trackfiles, including tacview.
 

PS: I forgot to save the Dcs track files. I hope this is enough data.

LO_HI_ECM_TWS_2.zip.acmi LO_HI_ECM_TWS.txt.acmi

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We went through the AN/APG-68(V)5 radar and its accuracy on every area in the past few weeks, and the conclusion is that it works close to perfection, based on its real counterpart.

Why the majority of other radars see differently, is because or they are much better then the one on F-16, and/or, which is more likely, they are not coded well enough as they should be, to work the same as IRL. I personally did lots of test hours testing just the radar on F-16 and my conclusion is that works exceptionaly well. AN/APG-68(V)5 is really not any state of the art, and so it should and it does work that way.

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7 hours ago, skywalker22 said:

We went through the AN/APG-68(V)5 radar and its accuracy on every area in the past few weeks, and the conclusion is that it works close to perfection, based on its real counterpart.

Why the majority of other radars see differently, is because or they are much better then the one on F-16, and/or, which is more likely, they are not coded well enough as they should be, to work the same as IRL. I personally did lots of test hours testing just the radar on F-16 and my conclusion is that works exceptionaly well. AN/APG-68(V)5 is really not any state of the art, and so it should and it does work that way.

You're saying a lot of words, but none of them makes any sense whatsoever. What do you mean by "it works close to perfection, based on its real counterpart" and "my conclusion is that it works exceptionally well"? Based on what? I couldn't even begin to guess what you use as your frame of reference.

The radar modelling in DCS is extremely simplified. Ask anyone who's studied or worked on even remotely modern radar systems and they'll tell you exactly that. As an example, a lot of the parameters that govern radar performance in DCS are often set values or percentages rather than actual calculations and statistical probabilities. If the DCS AN/APG-68V(5) behaved realistically, you wouldn't have a specific maximum detection range for a target with a specific RCS and if the target is beyond that range it's invisible. It's all about probability of detection and this probability does not have a purely linear or exponential relationship to the distance of a target. A lot of factors that are dependent on the design of a radar can make it so that, as an example, the radar has a higher probability of detecting a target at 30 miles than at 25 miles even if all the parameters of that target, like speed, altitude, aspect, RCS, etc., are identical. So even if the "maximum detection range" of the AN/APG-68V(5) in DCS for a specific RCS is 40 miles, that shouldn't make it impossible to spot that target momentarily at longer ranges.

Now, most of the information about how military radars like the AN/APG-68V(5) work and does signals processing is obviously classified. There are however a lot of general signal processing techniques and military fighter radar behaviours that aren't classified, especially for older radars like the AN/APG-66, that could be roughly emulated in DCS to get us a little bit closer to realistic radar performance and behaviour. The choice to do that however is up to ED.

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“the conclusion is that it works close to perfection, based on its real counterpart”

Simply Unbelievable! When target aircraft are in visual sight (even within 20 miles) even in VR and a RADAR lock or relock is not possible despite repeated TMS up selections with ALL other switch selections being correct something is NOT right.  There have been  a number of videos and track files provided by the community on a number of threads which suggests that the software appears flawed in respect of F16 RADAR/Missiles etc. The simple fact is the situation  has deteriorated over the last year and DCS F16 Pilots (your customers) are NOT happy and the image of ED is being tarnished on what is in general an exceptional product. 
 

Let me be clear I am not saying the F16 RADAR/missiles do not work at all. However, they do not operate consistently either in SP or MP. 
 

I am sure that I am not alone in hoping with each and every DCS update that these issues will be resolved so to suggest matters are near perfect is unbelievable and exasperating in equal measure. 
 

I am not sure ED asking for another track file or video will add anything to the evidence already provided across multiple threads, hence none are offered by me at this time. 
 

Let me finish by stating as a retired Senior RAF Officer (35 years) with first hand knowledge of Weapon Engineering/Fast Jet Aircraft Weapons Systems/Air to Air Missiles and some flying experience during my career that if the DCS F16 reflects the “real counterpart” we are going to lose a lot of F16 pilots IRL should actual combat breakout (in the era of this jet). I am sure every DCS F16 pilot would be happy to contribute to help ED resolve the issues being experienced sending our enjoyment levels off the scale. 
 

Thank you for your consideration. 


Edited by Nuggetz
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11 hours ago, WHOGX5 said:

The radar modelling in DCS is extremely simplified. Ask anyone who's studied or worked on even remotely modern radar systems and they'll tell you exactly that. As an example, a lot of the parameters that govern radar performance in DCS are often set values or percentages rather than actual calculations and statistical probabilities. If the DCS AN/APG-68V(5) behaved realistically, you wouldn't have a specific maximum detection range for a target with a specific RCS and if the target is beyond that range it's invisible. It's all about probability of detection and this probability does not have a purely linear or exponential relationship to the distance of a target. A lot of factors that are dependent on the design of a radar can make it so that, as an example, the radar has a higher probability of detecting a target at 30 miles than at 25 miles even if all the parameters of that target, like speed, altitude, aspect, RCS, etc., are identical. So even if the "maximum detection range" of the AN/APG-68V(5) in DCS for a specific RCS is 40 miles, that shouldn't make it impossible to spot that target momentarily at longer ranges.

Now, most of the information about how military radars like the AN/APG-68V(5) work and does signals processing is obviously classified. There are however a lot of general signal processing techniques and military fighter radar behaviours that aren't classified, especially for older radars like the AN/APG-66, that could be roughly emulated in DCS to get us a little bit closer to realistic radar performance and behaviour. The choice to do that however is up to ED.

I was saying that, just based on what you are saying: the radars in DCS are very simplified. We won`t get anything better then this anytime soon, if ever. Knowing that, ED did a fine job, need some tuning for sure, but I think that the best we can get.

And another thing, do you think is it that simple to code the radar, where you are not even able to get true data, dynamic RCS of aircraft, and some other things that might influence?

On the other hand, don`t forget, its just a game, and take it that way.

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8 hours ago, skywalker22 said:

On the other hand, don`t forget, its just a game, and take it that way.

No its not a game. is a simulator that is trying to reproduce real world flight&weapon characteristics/performance etc.  🙂
Candy Crush is a game. 😛

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53 minutes ago, nuxil said:

No its not a game. is a simulator that is trying to reproduce real world flight&weapon characteristics/performance etc.  🙂
Candy Crush is a game. 😛

Facts 

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10 hours ago, skywalker22 said:

I was saying that, just based on what you are saying: the radars in DCS are very simplified. We won`t get anything better then this anytime soon, if ever. Knowing that, ED did a fine job, need some tuning for sure, but I think that the best we can get.

And another thing, do you think is it that simple to code the radar, where you are not even able to get true data, dynamic RCS of aircraft, and some other things that might influence?

On the other hand, don`t forget, its just a game, and take it that way.

The Mirage 2000, JF-17, F-14 and Viggen all notably demonstrate that it's entirely possible to go a bit further in complexity for a huge increase in fidelity.

For this topic though, it's about consistency. If we simplify all DCS ECM as noise jamming, then it's odd that the F-16 radar can't see the same effect as all the other modules.

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On 5/10/2022 at 11:59 AM, skywalker22 said:

We went through the AN/APG-68(V)5 radar and its accuracy on every area in the past few weeks, and the conclusion is that it works close to perfection, based on its real counterpart.

[citation needed]

I mean, SEA and GMT without any clutter? How is that "close to perfection"? Let alone the other issues.

On 5/11/2022 at 6:45 AM, skywalker22 said:

I was saying that, just based on what you are saying: the radars in DCS are very simplified. We won`t get anything better then this anytime soon, if ever. Knowing that, ED did a fine job, need some tuning for sure, but I think that the best we can get.

I take it you're not aware of the Mirage 2000C? Which absolutely does have a much higher fidelity RADAR, in just about every aspect.

Heatblur comes in 2nd place with the Viggen and Tomcat.

On 5/11/2022 at 6:45 AM, skywalker22 said:

And another thing, do you think is it that simple to code the radar, where you are not even able to get true data, dynamic RCS of aircraft

Well, just about anything would be better than the spherical cow in a vacuum implementation we have for RCS, where it's a single, static value regardless of aspect or configuration.

And for that look at something like C:MO, which does RCS based on aspect and configuration (in C:MO's case, stores).

On 5/11/2022 at 6:45 AM, skywalker22 said:

On the other hand, don`t forget, its just a game, and take it that way.

And?

Here's a snippet of ED's own description for this "game":

Quote

Our dream is to offer the most authentic and realistic simulation of military aircraft, tanks, ground vehicles and ships possible.


Edited by Northstar98
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Modules I own: F-14A/B, Mi-24P, AV-8B N/A, AJS 37, F-5E-3, MiG-21bis, F-16CM, F/A-18C, Supercarrier, Mi-8MTV2, UH-1H, Mirage 2000C, FC3, MiG-15bis, Ka-50, A-10C (+ A-10C II), P-47D, P-51D, C-101, Yak-52, WWII Assets, CA, NS430, Hawk.

Terrains I own: South Atlantic, Syria, The Channel, SoH/PG, Marianas.

System:

GIGABYTE B650 AORUS ELITE AX, AMD Ryzen 5 7600, Corsair Vengeance DDR5-5200 32 GB, Western Digital Black SN850X 1 TB (DCS dedicated) & 2 TB NVMe SSDs, Corsair RM850X 850 W, NZXT H7 Flow, MSI G274CV.

Peripherals: VKB Gunfighter Mk.II w. MCG Pro, MFG Crosswind V3 Graphite, Logitech Extreme 3D Pro.

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On 5/11/2022 at 7:45 AM, skywalker22 said:

I was saying that, just based on what you are saying: the radars in DCS are very simplified. We won`t get anything better then this anytime soon, if ever. Knowing that, ED did a fine job, need some tuning for sure, but I think that the best we can get.

And another thing, do you think is it that simple to code the radar, where you are not even able to get true data, dynamic RCS of aircraft, and some other things that might influence?

On the other hand, don`t forget, its just a game, and take it that way.

This is not the best we can get. There are a tonne of things that could be implemented. Obviously ED can't make a 1-to-1 true-to-life radar simulation in DCS, both due to performance issues and labour costs. You can however emulate behavior with a pretty satisfactory degree of accuracy.

As an example, regarding RCS, you could run the DCS F-16 3D model through a radar simulation and save RCS values from all directions in all 3 axes with different loadout combinations and store that as an array of simple numerical values somewhere in the game files. Obviously you might have to do some simple scaling of these calculated values to account for different airframes being made out of different materials, having radar absorbing paint, etc. Once you're in-game and your radar sweeps over a target, you check the angle and aspect that target has relative to the player aircraft as well as which stores it has and use the pre-calculated RCS value for that angle and loadout. Is it a perfect, 100% accurate emulation of reality? Not even close. Is it better than what we have now? Without a doubt.

And whether you want to call DCS a simulator or just a game the explicit goal of ED is to make a realistic simulation. Therefore that should be the bar we're aiming for when discussing these things.

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-Col. Russ Everts opinion on surface-to-air missiles: "It makes you feel a little better if it's coming for one of your buddies. However, if it's coming for you, it doesn't make you feel too good, but it does rearrange your priorities."

 

DCS Wishlist:

MC-130E Combat Talon   |   F/A-18F Lot 26   |   HH-60G Pave Hawk   |   E-2 Hawkeye/C-2 Greyhound   |   EA-6A/B Prowler   |   J-35F2/J Draken   |   RA-5C Vigilante

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