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Dedicated Haptic Feedback - for bass shakers and the like


jross194

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For just a start,  Imagine feeling - yes FEELING - the 'whump, whump, whump..." of the rotor blades of your Huey, (or Apache?)...

First, see this: https://www.mudspike.com/feedback-for-flight-simulation-2020/

Not sure what to title this but I would think supporting this directly in the code would at the very least eliminate all [perceptible] latency; you don't have to go through lua, then an external app, then back to the sound card. Shouldn't bother performance much either; seems taylor-made for a separate thread of execution. 

Note I'm not talking about simply feeding the audio to a bass shaker here but discrete effects. The article explains more. It's something that REALLY enhances the experience. But it could be better by eliminating the middle-ware and associated extra steps and latency.

Thank you,

JR


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Some people use andrey's shop sound module.

I myself run two bass shakers under my seat, but as you mention I simply run all sound through it apart from radios which use my headset. I have a separate audio feed for the sound that goes to an amplifier and to my shakers. 

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On 1/6/2022 at 7:46 PM, BIGNEWY said:

Some people use andrey's shop sound module.

That’s the point. This is the only way I know of, to get haptic feedback. Would be nice to have native feedback support in DCS, just like for FFB joysticks. Maybe that would enable better control over the feedback signals and reduce latency.

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  • 1 month later...
On 1/6/2022 at 6:46 PM, BIGNEWY said:

Some people use andrey's shop sound module.

I myself run two bass shakers under my seat, but as you mention I simply run all sound through it apart from radios which use my headset. I have a separate audio feed for the sound that goes to an amplifier and to my shakers. 

Having just set up the sound module I'm interested to try this way too, but surely the shakers don't produce much actual sound? 


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On 1/14/2022 at 12:06 PM, Goblin said:

That’s the point. This is the only way I know of, to get haptic feedback. Would be nice to have native feedback support in DCS, just like for FFB joysticks. Maybe that would enable better control over the feedback signals and reduce latency.

  How is it different from any other module or 3rd party? What relevance does ''native'' have to anything?

 

1 hour ago, Hoirtel said:

Having just set up the sound module I'm interested to try this way too, but surely the shakers don't produce much actual sound? 

   No, they don't really. They cause a lot of vibration though, so you have to be... conscientious about placement... to avoid angering your neighbors.

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13 minutes ago, Mars Exulte said:

How is it different from any other module or 3rd party? What relevance does ''native'' have to anything?

I’m not talking about any other module or third party.

I just think it would be cool to have haptic feedback support directly in DCS, just like force feedback.

1 hour ago, Hoirtel said:

surely the shakers don't produce much actual sound? 

They mostly vibrate. But the structure that the bass shakers are attached to can generate a lot of noise from vibration and resonance. It depends on your setup.

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10 hours ago, Mars Exulte said:

  No, they don't really. They cause a lot of vibration though, so you have to be... conscientious about placement... to avoid angering your neighbors.

Yes I have them already and I know you can get a bit of sound out of them. My query was with the setup that BN has, radios through headset and sound through shakers doesn't seem like you would hear much. I would like to try game sound only through my shakers (rather than SSM) and have all 'normal' sound through headset still. Not just radios. Not sure of this is possible. 


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On 3/6/2022 at 2:05 AM, Hoirtel said:

Yes I have them already and I know you can get a bit of sound out of them. My query was with the setup that BN has, radios through headset and sound through shakers doesn't seem like you would hear much. I would like to try game sound only through my shakers (rather than SSM) and have all 'normal' sound through headset still. Not just radios. Not sure of this is possible. 

 

  Ah, I see. Well, it's not a problem to run sound through multiple devices simultaneously even in Windows. Use the ''WhatUHear'' selection in the Windows sound options and select what additional device you want it to play through. There's no problem routing sound for example through the shakers, and also to your headset or sound system, and then in DCS you have the option of further separating radio/game sounds if desired.

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1 hour ago, Mars Exulte said:

  Ah, I see. Well, it's not a problem to run sound through multiple devices simultaneously even in Windows. Use the ''WhatUHear'' selection in the Windows sound options and select what additional device you want it to play through. There's no problem routing sound for example through the shakers, and also to your headset or sound system, and then in DCS you have the option of further separating radio/game sounds if desired.

Ah great. Thanks! I'll try that.

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I have cheap china amp 2x60w rms and 2x linus bass shakers under my butt in stereo.

Usint andres software.


Its awesome.

With VR it really makea you feel the plane.



I recomend to use cheap usb soundcard, if you use software ”card” you get latency.

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  • 4 weeks later...

Why do people use sound instead of telemetry ?

I'm still learning, but I think DCS has the telemetry available via API, and you can send it to your device in export.lua ... Am I wrong ?

I want to implement bHaptics suit support for DCS ...

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SimShaker uses telemetry data/events (engine rumble, stall, guns, ground rumble, impact events) for immersion. It will output effects to proprietary accessories JetSeat, etc. if you would rather go with tactile transducers (bass shakers, butt kicker), SimShaker will output those effects as an audio signal that an audio amp will use to drive said bass shakers. It’s pretty sweet, but it requires the SimShaker sound module (another app).  
 

additionally, SS can output game *sounds*, like explosions, etc. into the bass shakers, if that’s your thing, but that’s not using telematics.
 

there’s another option, Sim Hub, that does the same thing IRT sound. 
 

I wouldn’t expect DCS to Go any deeper into it on their end, as there are 3rd party apps that fill the need quite nicely at a reasonable price (less than the cost of an aircraft module for the software).

It’s really hard to fly without, once you feel it. 

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6 hours ago, Ainuke said:

additionally, SS can output game *sounds*, like explosions, etc. into the bass shakers, if that’s your thing, but that’s not using telematics.

I use SSA and the sound module to run 2x transducers. It is quite good, but I am interested in trying out game sounds only through them just to see what its like. I was think of just splitting the sound in windows between my headset and transducers (separate sound devices), but are you saying SSA will do this anyway. Is it any different/better. I have already run the game sound only through the transducers just to see and I was surprised at what I could hear and what I couldn't feel, but was thinking I might need to filter out the low frequency sound to transducers only.

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15 hours ago, Ainuke said:

SimShaker uses telemetry data/events (engine rumble, stall, guns, ground rumble, impact events) for immersion. It will output effects to proprietary accessories JetSeat, etc. if you would rather go with tactile transducers (bass shakers, butt kicker), SimShaker will output those effects as an audio signal that an audio amp will use to drive said bass shakers. It’s pretty sweet, but it requires the SimShaker sound module (another app).  
 

additionally, SS can output game *sounds*, like explosions, etc. into the bass shakers, if that’s your thing, but that’s not using telematics.
 

there’s another option, Sim Hub, that does the same thing IRT sound. 
 

I wouldn’t expect DCS to Go any deeper into it on their end, as there are 3rd party apps that fill the need quite nicely at a reasonable price (less than the cost of an aircraft module for the software).

It’s really hard to fly without, once you feel it. 

What Ainuke said.

 

I use Simshaker Jetpad and you are able to tailor the level of feedback from each telemetry output in the Simshaker software. Works amazingly well and flying without it you really notice its absence.

You can clearly feel the position and type of activity from different parts of the seat. Gear raising and lowering you feel the clunk whrrrr clunk of the front and rear wheels locking into place from the front and rear of the seat respectively. You feel the probe up front, you feel the hook at the back. Burners on your back. Drop a bomb from the left wing and you feel the clunk as it leaves the pylon under your left leg. 

With stall, speed shudders, g-force etc you can turn and keep it right on the edge by feel alone, rather than having to look at your G, AOA or speed. There is no doubting whether or not your airbrake is out, whether you are on afterburner, whether your wheels are down. You can feel the flaps move.

I tuned the levels of all the separate actions to my taste and for example have taking damage, cat launch, hitting the ground/deck, wire trapping, wheel blocking all set to max, and when they happen it feels pretty violent. Firing the gun is a blast as it shakes the fillings loose.

I know folks that have the bass shakers and although the Simshaker software does a decent job of converting to sound vibrations, it can't compare to the very specific feedback you get from the Jetpad / Jetseat.

So the haptic feedback exists very well already, you just need the hardware to output it.

I saw the Brunner FFB stick base which looks like the only really serious FFB option, but it is very expensive, and from what I've seen its main benefit is proper trim positioning. The actual FFB is a bit limited apparently. Happy to find out if this is incorrect? And if there are any other products out there? 

I guess your other option is a motion control setup for actual movement......but that is another ballgame of cost, complexity and physical logistics!

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Just tried my transducers with game sound only using voicemeeter banana to split the sound and EQ it for the bass shakers. I really prefer this to SSA now it's totally in time and tune with DCS, and each aircraft is as different as the sound and perfectly tuned straight away. Not taking anything away from SSA&SM as it's a great bit of software but this "native" experience feels really nice. The apache and hind are especially awesome. Took a bit of figuring out to get it all going with sound splitting and ensuring my microphone works properly. Worth it though!  

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On 4/14/2022 at 2:40 PM, Hoirtel said:

Just tried my transducers with game sound only using voicemeeter banana to split the sound and EQ it for the bass shakers. I really prefer this to SSA now it's totally in time and tune with DCS, and each aircraft is as different as the sound and perfectly tuned straight away. Not taking anything away from SSA&SM as it's a great bit of software but this "native" experience feels really nice. The apache and hind are especially awesome. Took a bit of figuring out to get it all going with sound splitting and ensuring my microphone works properly. Worth it though!  

You can actually use a mixture of both which is how I currently use it.  I have SSA&SM open, and the gain adjusted on the Output going to my Buttkicker2 so that it's not overwhelming the SSA specific effects but I still get the audio based feedback as well.

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12 hours ago, Paul_Exotic said:

You can actually use a mixture of both which is how I currently use it.  I have SSA&SM open, and the gain adjusted on the Output going to my Buttkicker2 so that it's not overwhelming the SSA specific effects but I still get the audio based feedback as well.

Been thinking of trying this next! But I would expect to turn nearly all SAA effects off as I think they would conflict in timing. The G effect at the moment is the main one I feel I would like to try but I'm not sure as this is a replacement effect rather than sound enhancement. Which ones do you use?

The sound option does add some "effects" that I need to get used to... I heard my first Sonic boom on a server the other day, thought I'd been hit with a Sam! However when I was sat at MP airfield I could feel those other jets taking off. That was really awesome!

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  • 2 months later...

I’d love to see DCS offer native support for haptic feedback such as Buttkickers. I find the current methods inconsistent (external apps etc). 

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7 minutes ago, Snowy55 said:

I’d love to see DCS offer native support for haptic feedback such as Buttkickers. I find the current methods inconsistent (external apps etc). 

It does really. It's the in game sounds. I used to use Sim shaker and also found it a little inconsistent. Just using the game sound is very consistent. The newer modules are definitely better than the older ones for the low frequency noises.


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37 minutes ago, Hoirtel said:

It does really. It's the in game sounds. I used to use Sim shaker and also found it a little inconsistent. Just using the game sound is very consistent. The newer modules are definitely better than the older ones for the low frequency noises.

 

OK! That’s interesting. I’ll experiment. Thank you.

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  • 6 months later...
On 4/11/2022 at 9:53 PM, Ainuke said:

SimShaker uses telemetry data/events (engine rumble, stall, guns, ground rumble, impact events) for immersion. It will output effects to proprietary accessories JetSeat, etc. if you would rather go with tactile transducers (bass shakers, butt kicker), SimShaker will output those effects as an audio signal that an audio amp will use to drive said bass shakers. It’s pretty sweet, but it requires the SimShaker sound module (another app).  
 

additionally, SS can output game *sounds*, like explosions, etc. into the bass shakers, if that’s your thing, but that’s not using telematics.
 

there’s another option, Sim Hub, that does the same thing IRT sound. 
 

I wouldn’t expect DCS to Go any deeper into it on their end, as there are 3rd party apps that fill the need quite nicely at a reasonable price (less than the cost of an aircraft module for the software).

It’s really hard to fly without, once you feel it. 

are you able to get SimHub to work with DCS?  I use it for racing and would love to use one software for DCS as well.

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On 1/18/2023 at 9:37 AM, PunchOut said:

are you able to get SimHub to work with DCS?  I use it for racing and would love to use one software for DCS as well.

I think you can use sim hub, but it doesn't use the telemetry from the game, just the sound, so it's not the same effect.

 

I for one would love to see native implementation of what SSASM does now. There are some limitations in the current 3rd party software, like no gunfire effects if unlimited ammo is on (apparently the telemetry data comes from the ammo count going down). I'm sure this is something that could be easily overcome by the actual game devs, simply by adding another telemetry output, say for every time a bullet leaves the barrel, etc.


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5 hours ago, FupDuck said:

I think you can use sim hub, but it doesn't use the telemetry from the game, just the sound, so it's not the same effect.

 

I for one would love to see native implementation of what SSASM does now. There are some limitations in the current 3rd party software, like no gunfire effects if unlimited ammo is on (apparently the telemetry data comes from the ammo count going down). I'm sure this is something that could be easily overcome by the actual game devs, simply by adding another telemetry output, say for every time a bullet leaves the barrel, etc.

 

The game actually already provides excellent haptic feedback through the game sounds. I have used both SSASM and plain game sound. Even tried them both together just using select parts from SSASM. But I just found game sound alone is just better in every way. 


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On 1/20/2023 at 12:15 AM, Hoirtel said:

The game actually already provides excellent haptic feedback through the game sounds. I have used both SSASM and plain game sound. Even tried them both together just using select parts from SSASM. But I just found game sound alone is just better in every way. 

 

I'm the opposite, but to each his own.

My main point was, if you prefer specific effects (G-force for instance or stalls), with the ability to pick-and-choose (ala SSM/SSA), then, like FFB joysticks, having the DCS engine spit this data out directly should eliminate or greatly reduce the latency.

I think it's been mentioned above - as is it goes through lua (Export.lua), then an external application, then to your sound card (real or virtual. I use a cheap USB sound card and it's better than a virtual one but still noticeable, but not so much that I'd turn it off.

I'd think if this process was the same for a FFB joystick (or racing wheels in a race sim) you would notice more delay from action to response [feel]. When I yank on the stick for instance I "Feel The G" (scaled to how hard/quick I pull) but it's just a tad later than the observed motion. I haven't used a FFB joystick in many years but I don't recall that being an issue, cus the [at the time] DX input stuff spit it all out directly to the hardware, without having the extra middleware.

 

For those that have never used haptic feedback: if they supported it directly more people might try it (the sellers of the hardware - Butt Kicker, et.al - might be happy?). And IMO it has become mandatory (at least in VR): I can't 'fly' without this anymore. FEELING the sim is a game-changer, using sound only (and all the extra 'noise' that produces) or physics/specific output only.


Edited by jross194
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