Another comp nerfs the 14 because of 'issues'

[Frostie]

55 minutes ago, Spurts said:

Because the HB AWG-9 doesn't work like that.  The HB AWG-9 needs the know the ECM strength, pulse patterns, direction, etc so that it knows what range and doppler bins to fill and how full to make them.  A binary on/off flag (DCS ECM prior to the Hornet and Viper update) does not do that.

That's all well and good but the point still stands.

An F14 radar does not see an F14 ECM or any other so the F14 ECM system does not suit a multiplayer environment.

 

I'm pretty sure if an F14 radar or any other radar couldn't see another F14 but could see every other aircraft this would be deemed unbalanced for multiplayer, this is the same situation but regarding ECM.

[Naquaii]

11 minutes ago, Frostie said:

That's all well and good but the point still stands.

An F14 radar does not see an F14 ECM or any other so the F14 ECM system does not suit a multiplayer environment.

 

I'm pretty sure if an F14 radar or any other radar couldn't see another F14 but could see every other aircraft this would be deemed unbalanced for multiplayer, this is the same situation but regarding ECM.

And we've stated multiple times that we're working on this and that we're going to try and model it in a way that makes sense for the AWG-9.

Asking about it over and over again will unfortunately not make this functionality appear faster.

[Karon]

@Frostie Have you considered asking ED to add a flag in the mission options to strip the ECM effects entirely from a mission?

[Frostie]

16 minutes ago, Naquaii said:

And we've stated multiple times that we're working on this and that we're going to try and model it in a way that makes sense for the AWG-9.

Asking about it over and over again will unfortunately not make this functionality appear faster.

I haven't asked for anything, if you reread my original post I have just highlighted to Ironmike the just reason why F14 ECM is not being used in MP.

[IronMike]

4 hours ago, Frostie said:

Hi Mike

I'm with you on all you have posted but I think the glaring issue here is that a Tomcat can jam other aircrafts radar/missiles but doesn't get affected by jammers itself.

 

 

 

Hey bud, yeah, ofc. It is just something we haven't gotten around yet, and will come in time. Simply a matter of working down the list, while we want to implement a nicer, in-depth jamming model, and need to find time for it. Like I said, I do not mind if you guys tweak the rules to whatever you deem necessary for the event in the meantime.

I second the opinion btw that there should be a server-wide setting available to just disallow ECM altogether on servers for PvP events. As the current ECM implementation is in DCS, I personally do not think it adds much to PvP. Ofc, that is just my personal opinion, and others will be of a different opinion. A mission editor setting - not sure if it is possible for ECM. A special option then would not help much beyond relying on Tomcat pilots policing themselves either. We'll think about it, but please understand we are not too fond of sinking too much time into it, before we do not tackle a more appropriate jamming implementation on its own. In the end we want it to be more than just the on/off thing that is currently present in most modules.

[Frostie]

Thanks for the response. I totally understand how this is not an immediate priority. I am not invested in favour of this thread or part of the decision on making this rule. But I see the reason behind it and for me it is an obvious decision.

I love the Tomcat and would love to see it take part in all its glory and I think in this respective event it is probably the best platform.

4 minutes ago, IronMike said:

Hey bud, yeah, ofc. It is just something we haven't gotten around yet, and will come in time. Simply a matter of working down the list, while we want to implement a nicer, in-depth jamming model, and need to find time for it. Like I said, I do not mind if you guys tweak the rules to whatever you deem necessary for the event in the meantime.

I second the opinion btw that there should be a server-wide setting available to just disallow ECM altogether on servers for PvP events. As the current ECM implementation is in DCS, I personally do not think it adds much to PvP. Ofc, that is just my personal opinion, and others will be of a different opinion. A mission editor setting - not sure if it is possible for ECM. A special option then would not help much beyond relying on Tomcat pilots policing themselves either. We'll think about it, but please understand we are not too fond of sinking too much time into it, before we do not tackle a more appropriate jamming implementation on its own. In the end we want it to be more than just the on/off thing that is currently present in most modules.

 

[Naquaii]

27 minutes ago, Frostie said:

I haven't asked for anything, if you reread my original post I have just highlighted to Ironmike the just reason why F14 ECM is not being used in MP.

I'm sorry if I directed this too much at you personally, it's just that some people go around talking about this as if we're ignoring it or have said that we don't care about it.

Which we ofc don't.

Please view my reply as a general comment not directed directly at you!

Edited January 11, 2022 by Naquaii

[captain_dalan]

Wait, they aren't letting F-14's on MP servers at all these days? I thought this was specific to the e-sport jocks. 

[draconus]

@HB How about simply disabling the ECM untill you get it working both ways? I mean it doesn't serve well SP nor MP atm.

[IronMike]

1 hour ago, captain_dalan said:

Wait, they aren't letting F-14's on MP servers at all these days? I thought this was specific to the e-sport jocks. 

Never heard that.

[IronMike]

1 hour ago, draconus said:

@HB How about simply disabling the ECM untill you get it working both ways? I mean it doesn't serve well SP nor MP atm.

There is nothing wrong with the ECM as is, within the current scope of ECM in DCS. It is the most logical thing to do. What it does to balance online, is of little concern to us, as mentioned above, it is a part of the game we must not consider really. This is where server hosts and event organizers can and should have the last say, but not us. I do not see why we should turn it off, just because the passive aspect of jamming isn't modelled yet. Anyone is free to disallow it, if they seem it necessary within the environment they provide. And I will neither argue with anyone, nor pull my support for them, because they do so. To the contrary. Rules make events, and it is the kind of place where these decisions belong.

Edited January 12, 2022 by IronMike

[shagrat]

vor 17 Stunden schrieb Frostie:

I haven't asked for anything, if you reread my original post I have just highlighted to Ironmike the just reason why F14 ECM is not being used in MP.

Just to point out, the F-14 is used in MP, just not a lot in competition aka "Player vs Player"...

[draconus]

You're right @IronMike that I can choose to not use ECM in SP but who does actually? Who would feel good and proud using ECM against opponents that cannot use it against us?

[IronMike]

18 minutes ago, draconus said:

You're right @IronMike that I can choose to not use ECM in SP but who does actually? Who would feel good and proud using ECM against opponents that cannot use it against us?

I don't know, honestly. Server hosts can always disallow it (rules can be enforced and are being enforced without mission editor settings, like taxi take off etc), event organizers have an even easier hand to disallow it (as rule breaking disqualifies). Personally, I never use ECM, in none of the modules. I find it rude to use ECM online lol.

[draconus]

You know that makes it hard to justify current ECM state in the Tomcat

[IronMike]

2 hours ago, draconus said:

You know that makes it hard to justify current ECM state in the Tomcat

Not even remotely. My personal old school stance towards online PvP does not change that the current implementation is still the most logical thing to do within the scope of DCS' ECM.

[DoorMouse]

ECM is barely modeled in this game, in the most simplistic way possible....  Why would any dev spend time building ECM when ED is likely to completely change how it works this year- As has been stated. Its just wasted time. 

If anyone truly cares for online play just either disallow all ECM to make it even across the board, or live with the way it is today.  Those are your practical options as of January 2021. 

Edited January 13, 2022 by DoorMouse

[IronMike]

6 hours ago, DoorMouse said:

ECM is barely modeled in this game, in the most simplistic way possible....  Why would any dev spend time building ECM when ED is likely to completely change how it works this year- As has been stated. Its just wasted time. 

If anyone truly cares for online play just either disallow all ECM to make it even across the board, or live with the way it is today.  Those are your practical options as of January 2021. 

 

I second this, and rest assured: once there is a more evolved ECM in place, we will most certainly follow suit.

[captain_dalan]

On 1/12/2022 at 4:50 PM, IronMike said:

Never heard that.

Ah, i must have misinterpreted some of the generalizations made above.