AAR

[Caldera]

Hey All,

Something seems a bit off in the pictures below.

Here is my position under the tanker.  Sorry for the bad quality picture due to the extreme zoom in.

Ideal position.

Here is my position on the boom. 

 

 

BODO = Boom of Doom Operator --->  My nemesis...

Director calibration needed?  I flew in that position, even through the turn, for quite some time before my WTFO kicked in.  The above pictures are from the track file.

Caldera

 

Edited January 9, 2022 by Caldera

[Ignition]

From my experience, the boom operator in DCS is really slow and you need to be steady for a while for the DCS operator to conect the boom. It doesn't matter if you're perfectly in position if the aircraft is still moving relatively from the tanker.

From the external view, I don't really know since I never watch myself or another aircraft tanking (all use the probe).

[Kilo]

From the ideal position you have to move a wee bit forward and it will connect

[WHOGX5]

38 minutes ago, Caldera said:

Hey All,

Something seems a bit off in the pictures below.

Here is my position under the tanker.  Sorry for the bad quality picture due to the extreme zoom in.

Ideal position.

Here is my position on the boom. 

 

 

BODO = Boom of Doom Operator --->  My nemesis...

Director calibration needed?  I flew in that position, even through the turn, for quite some time before my WTFO kicked in.  The above pictures are from the track file.

Caldera

 

 

In the picture you posted you're not actually in the ideal position. The left director light is showing you as below centre. It's quite hard to tell, but it's showing a green up-arrow rather than the horizontal line. You can also compare how long the director strips look in your picture compared to the photo from the manual and you'll see that the director strips in your picture are longer, hence you are too low.

[randomTOTEN]

47 minutes ago, Caldera said:

The above pictures are from the track file.

and where is your track file?

Edited January 9, 2022 by randomTOTEN

[TobiasA]

I always go a bit further forward than the indicator says, the guy seems to connect faster if I do. Yes, green is green, but that guy likes the other green.

[Chain_1]

You're also pretty far right.  Try to stay under the centerline.  At the least, try to stay between the director light strips, that's +/- 2 degrees of azimuth.

[Frederf]

The DCS boom will not extend past 50.000% extension to achieve connection.  In reality pre-connect PDL indications are directive in nature and I think fully manual in control. The directions would be based on your airplane type and rate of motion, "talking you on" with the lights. The PDLs in DCS are computer code so more interpretation by your is required. From that green-green position I would drift slowly along what is the known boom axis radially inward until contact is made.

Post-contact the PDLs switch from directive to reactive, linked to the actual boom location. The light indications are still directive (if you fall back the "go forward" light comes on) but it's based on the fact that you have moved back which dragged the boom a certain way.

[Chain_1]

18 minutes ago, Frederf said:

In reality pre-connect PDL indications are directive in nature and I think fully manual in control. The directions would be based on your airplane type and rate of motion, "talking you on" with the lights. 

Correct.  For example, at 10' from the contact position the boom manually flashes the forward light.  Other lights may be used for direction if EMCON does not permit a verbal correction.

[Caldera]

2 hours ago, Kilo said:

From the ideal position you have to move a wee bit forward and it will connect

OK!

2 hours ago, WHOGX5 said:

In the picture you posted you're not actually in the ideal position. The left director light is showing you as below centre. It's quite hard to tell, but it's showing a green up-arrow rather than the horizontal line. You can also compare how long the director strips look in your picture compared to the photo from the manual and you'll see that the director strips in your picture are longer, hence you are too low.

Yes, I did realize that I was not in the ideal spot, mostly because I was not connected or BODO would not connect.  But all in all it did not look so bad either.  The little amount of time I have spent connected looked very close to that.  This is near the end of at least 30 minutes straight of trying and failing, being many times in this almost exact position.

2 hours ago, randomTOTEN said:

and where is your track file?

I would have had to make a video (big file size) of it and use YouTube (or some such) and it was not worth the effort for me to do so.

36 minutes ago, Chain_1 said:

You're also pretty far right.  Try to stay under the centerline.  At the least, try to stay between the director light strips, that's +/- 2 degrees of azimuth.

It is hard to tell from the pictures, but right about this point in the track the tanker was in a turn at end of its race track orbit.  I had been trying to connect for quite awhile, backing off and moving back in when things got too far out of whack.  I actually did connect a few times, but never for more than 5-15 seconds at a time.  I am still a bit too wobbly, but mostly throttle control was the trigger that got me discombobulated.

Then...  

The hose just dried up and it would no longer connect at all.  So on and on we flew, BODO managed to get back on my S### List and then there were flash backs of my trials and tribulations I had with the A-10C.  I got frustrated and decided to figure out where I was going wrong. 

I did not want to restart the track over so I just grabbed the screen shots at the point you see in the pictures above so that I could get some quick advice on my technique.

 

The feeling is quite a bit different than refueling the A-10C where the hose is out in front.  The visual references seem harder to maintain and I have to to get over the feeling that a collision could happen at any moment being under the tanker.  Being under that tanker and in the shade.

I don't know why, but realistically the director lights are very hard for me to make out.  I had started only glancing at them for position adjustments and mostly trying to just maintain formation.  Is that sounding about right?

 

II is cool however to have the CGAS lady tell me that altitude my is too low.  When I am just above the tanker...

Thanks for all the advice!

Caldera

Thanks Fred,

I was typing when you were.

Caldera

[randomTOTEN]

2 hours ago, Caldera said:

I would have had to make a video

do you not know what a track file is?

[Caldera]

Random,

I believe I do, yes but... 

In the past I could not post a track if the file size was to large (it used to be a 5 MB limit).   The track in question that you wanted to see, was too large.  In the past I converted those files to a video type format, uploaded them on YouTube and then posted the links into this ED forum.  I got allot of help in that thread as well.  (it seems YouTube lost one of my videos) 

So, for your viewing pleasure I have attached a track file.  It is only 4 MB.  Take a look if you care to and leave me comments if you like.

All,

I put some words of wisdom to good use.  Those words saved me allot of time in trial and error mode.  Pretty shaky really, but my first fill up in the F-16C!  

No doubt I still have a ways to go before I am proficient, but for just the third time that I have ever tried I consider it a success.  Throttle control is what currently haunts me the most.  The F-16C is much slicker than what I am used to.

Thanks again everyone for the advice,

Caldera

F-16C AAR 1st Fill up.trk

Edited January 10, 2022 by Caldera

[randomTOTEN]

It's so much better with a track, thank you.

8 hours ago, Caldera said:

Here is my position under the tanker.  Sorry for the bad quality picture due to the extreme zoom in.

You need to thank the boom operator not talk trash about him in both of these threads.

8 hours ago, Caldera said:

I flew in that position,

Here's the poor boom operator, having to chase you all over the sky.

You can fib and take grainy screengrabs at the perfect time if you want. But the track tells the truth...

You boom operator has the patience of a saint. YOU OWE THEM AN APOLOGY

You also need to stop bashing the tanker with your airplane.. that's quite expensive you know?

Nice job on your third attempt. Again, 2 tires with a new jet I don't think justifies how much you badmouth the boom operator.

Here is my advice.

You say:

1 hour ago, Caldera said:

Throttle control is what currently haunts me the most.

You complicate the task of refueling by trying to do everything at once. Complex tasks are broken into pieces, and those pieces can be practiced individually.

Don't try to refuel if you can't fly formation first, and you can't fly formation if you can't get a handle of the throttle in your new jet.

Pull up on the side, and take some time to get a handle on formation flying. No director lights to squint at, no boom to watch out for. No radio calls and cockpit lights to pay attention to.

Fly the airplane first.

Learn the skill of formation before you try taking fuel. You should be able to sit ROCK SOLID off the tip of his wing. If you can't do that... what makes you think you can do it on the underside squinting at lights?

Edited January 10, 2022 by randomTOTEN

[Caldera]

Random,

Thanks for your time and your advice!  I will put it to good use.

Where did you get those screens shots of the director? 

I have never seen the clear crisp triangle on the left indicator nor the rectangle on the right indicator nor any circle centered indicator on either.  I did not even know that there were triangles or rectangles or circles present.  All I can see are very faint fuzzy green blobs moving forward or backwards or red blobs at the ends, barely. 

 

As to your "You can fib and" comment.   That statement is not true and the statements I made are true.  Why would I have a reason to "fib"? 

I had been at it quite awhile, frustration had set in and I knew that I was re-learning the wrong thing over and over again.  I was hoping what worked before would work again.  The community here is awesome.  It is much easier and faster for me to be taught than spend hours in trial and error.  That process is learning how to not do it correctly as opposed to learning how to do it correctly.

For your part, keep in mind that not everyone can play at the screen resolution and fidelity that it appears that you can.  For my part my vision is not the best, maybe my PC could be better and I need more practice.  So consider taking just a moment of reflection, checking six and stowing those types of comments on the shaded side of a nice big tanker.

 

LOL  

As for BODO? 

He stays on my bad side until he has learned to behave correctly.  When he does, I will buy him a beer...

 

Caldera

[Frederf]

For practice you can make an editor mission with tanker, you a few miles back and in a state that needs gas. The track file that results will be super small.

During any rejoin visually (lacking TACAN or radar distance) you need to aim at a piece of sky to his side, maybe 500-3000' laterally. Rejoining straight up the tailpipe is a classic nugget move. You can only tell range by how big he is in the window and by the time you realize you should be slowing down it's too late. When you aim to miss you can tell distance by his angular position by parallax, plus it's much safer, plus if he's turning you get there much faster. When he's 30-45° off nose then you slide in diagonally. Also sliding around at or above his level are safety fails. Pretend wake turbulence is on and keep your step down until well in the box.

Underneath you're plenty gentle but lots of wander in all three dimensions. Once you learn the sight picture for contact you'll do much better. The lights are nice aids but really you want to watch the whole tanker as an object. Motions of a fraction of walking pace are easily detectable by eye.  When you move, zero motion by looking at tanker, then look at the lights for position guidance, then watch at the tanker as you enact that change. Repeat.

F16 Demo AAR.trk

[lmp]

On 1/9/2022 at 10:42 PM, Caldera said:

I had started only glancing at them for position adjustments and mostly trying to just maintain formation.  Is that sounding about right?

This is what made all the difference to me. I used to fixate on the lights too much. When I focus on flying formation with the tanker and only glance at the lights, I can finally get where I need to be and stay there long enough for the boom operator to do his thing. I don't know why this wasn't obvious to me at once after all my Hornet AARs, but for some reason it wasn't. The rest is practice. My Viper AARs still aren't as clean as I'd like them to be, but I'm past the frustrating part of not being confident of my ability to fill up my jet safely.

Edited January 11, 2022 by lmp

[_SteelFalcon_]

I used this when i started out. A very good how-to

 

[Caldera]

Hey All,

Thank you so much for all your advice.  I have read every single word.  It has helped me greatly and I am sure would help any other reader.  You are all great!

 

On 1/9/2022 at 12:56 PM, Frederf said:

The DCS boom will not extend past 50.000% extension to achieve connection.  In reality pre-connect PDL indications are directive in nature and I think fully manual in control. The directions would be based on your airplane type and rate of motion, "talking you on" with the lights. The PDLs in DCS are computer code so more interpretation by your is required. From that green-green position I would drift slowly along what is the known boom axis radially inward until contact is made.

Post-contact the PDLs switch from directive to reactive, linked to the actual boom location. The light indications are still directive (if you fall back the "go forward" light comes on) but it's based on the fact that you have moved back which dragged the boom a certain way.

Going back to just my original problem.  I got frustrated because I felt l like I should be in a fairly good position (and my shoulder ached) and still  BODO refused to connect.  I can't see the boom at all in the F-16C when refueling.  And in all the time that I have spent refueling the A-10C I never really noticed, paid much attention or was informed to the booms extension.  I just knew that when BODO lifted it and started waving it around in my face, he was ready to connect.  FWIW, I now know what my dog sees when I wave a hotdog in his face.

The 50% extension before connection information gave me insight and the .000% gave me a chuckle.  This person deals in precision...

 

After Totem tried to roast me somewhat about my grainy picture (etc... etc...) I have upped my screen resolution back to 3440x1440.  The pictures of the director posted above were about 1000.000% clearer than anything I had seen up to that point.  I will see if that helps me out picking up the cues from the director.

Caldera

[lmp]

I fly in 1920x1080 so a pretty low resolution these days. I can see the lights well enough, but I use a fairly narrow field of view. Maybe it's something you can experiment with?

[Caldera]

Imp,

Nah... 

I have a fairly big curved wide screen monitor that was $$$ and is really great.  The 2560x1080 resolution I had been running at is not native for the display, but seems like it should be enough though.  I was trying out the lower resolution for better spotting and improving FPS while running higher graphic options.

From my experience with myself, the problem may be the viewer himself and not the viewing device.

Caldera

Edited January 11, 2022 by Caldera

[Caldera]

Hey All,

The change in resolution did help me.  I can see the triangle!  I did have to give up quite a bit of fidelity to do this however.  I am still undecided to which is best.

I can see the director position indicators noticeably better.  However, with the 50% max boom extension built into BODO AI getting into the connection position is still a challenge.  I just can't see the indicators very well.  I have been more or less just feeling my around to find it until he gets off his coffee break.  Once connection is made then, I have noticed that you can drop down just a bit and see the indicators better.

 

For the A-10C I use Pitch = 15, Roll = 15 and Deadbands = 0.  This has worked pretty well for me in all modes of flight.  The F-16C I am currently using Pitch = -10, Roll = -20 and Deadbands = 3.  This can cause some twitchiness when trying to refuel if I am not entirely careful with the controls and gripping extremely lightly, like only in my finger tips.  But, those same curves are seem pretty good for all other flight modes.

Maybe I just have to learn the much greater control movements required for the F-16C and use flatter curves.  Using the default straight curves, the F-16C seems really tame even compared to the A-10C using flatter curves, especially the roll rate.  Considering the F-16C is more like the sports car and to me it seems like it should naturally roll very quickly and easily.  I am not sure a straight curve is a thing, so I hope you know what I mean.

 

Maybe I could get some suggestions for control curves.  I have not ever changed curves just to refuel.  That just seems wrong to me...

What settings do you guys use for Pitch, Roll and Deadbands?

Caldera

[=52d= Skip]

22 minutes ago, Caldera said:

 

What settings do you guys use for Pitch, Roll and Deadbands?

Caldera

None (TMWH), neither for the F-16, nor any other module I own.

The secret for refueling the F-16 is the same as it is for the A-10 - Practice.

[MAXsenna]

I don't use any curves or deadzones either. Though I have different sticks with different extensions. 

What I did though, was to watch a video on where to look for the Hornet. The Viper was much easier for me as I can clearly see the indicators, and when I had two greens, I would look at the tanker compared to my screen, and that's my reference point. After this I practiced for 10 days or so straight twice a day. Doing the AAR missions for the Viper and the Hornet twice a day until I was completely dry, or as fate would have it. Progression every day until it just clicked, and after that it was easy, and I moved on to other modules. I find the Viper and the Eagle the easiest due to the indicators and the boom is plugging you if you can keep steady.  

[lmp]

5 hours ago, Caldera said:

What settings do you guys use for Pitch, Roll and Deadbands?

 

No deadzone, no curves. I use some curves for other modules, but the F-16 feels fine without any.

1 hour ago, MAXsenna said:

The Viper was much easier for me as I can clearly see the indicators, and when I had two greens, I would look at the tanker compared to my screen, and that's my reference point.

It was the other way round for me - Hornet proved much easier than the Viper. Somehow after I found out where the basket needs to be, I hit it every single time without any tricks. Only works for the Hornet unfortunately - connecting to the basket with the Harrier is a different matter altogether. Once I'm plugged in, staying on the tanker is much easier even if I have to do it longer than when using the boom.

[Caldera]

Well...

I was mistaken, my set-up was Pitch = -20, Roll = -20 and Deadbands = 3.  I changed it to Pitch = 0, Roll = -20 and Deadbands = 0.  That was about 5 times easier, especially getting through the wake turbulence hump.  There was no porpoising.  I filled the main and drop tank on the first run through.

My VPC stick really doesn't need a dead zone, but I had watched a YouTube that suggested those settings. 

The F-16C just seems to roll so painfully slow with almost maximum stick deflection using the default curve.  Maybe I will try flatter curves in the future, but Roll = -20 seems OK for now.

Caldera

Edited January 14, 2022 by Caldera