VR or not VR, that is the question!

[peachmonkey]

2 hours ago, Steel Jaw said:

where would I find such please?

1) you could buy a complete system from Buttkicker website. It's $200 in USA.

https://thebuttkicker.com/products/buttkicker-gamer2-haptic-transducer

2) you could build your own (like @hannibal said above). It's a pretty simple setup:

- get a bass transducer (50W minimum, it's literally a low/sub-bass  frequency speaker), search on amazon (e.g. Dayton Audio BST-1 High Power Pro Tactile Bass Shaker 50 Watts) = ~$50 to $60 in USA

- get a bass amp (50W for single or 100w for 2 transducers), again on amazon (e.g. Nobsound G2 Subwoofer Power Amplifier Mini Mono SUB Amp 100W). Make sure it comes with a power adapter as some of these amps don't.  = ~$50 to $60 in USA

- get some speaker wire (anything above 16 gauge is fine, but the thinner the better, less power loss) to connect the amp to the transducer = ~$10 in USA

- get some 3.8mm to 3.8mm male-to-male cable so you can connect the little bass amp to your sound card line out port.

all this stuff is plug&play, there's no need to solder anything.

3) Get Simshaker software from Andre's webshop, specifically "Simshaker Sound Module". It's a software the receives the telemetry from DCS and then translates it in to Sound, which it then outputs to the bassamp+transducer via your computer soundcard. It processes several telemetry types, i.e. engine beat, afterburner, guns, landing gear, flaps, etc.. etc..  = ~$25 in USA

 

Building your own system allows you to have as many bass shakers as your soul desires.    The only catch is you need to have a dedicated sound card for the SimShaker software to work, at least that's how it was when I built it. If you don't have a separate sound card then you buy a USB one for $10 on amazon.

I know it's a wall of text, but don't fret, this is all very very simple to setup.

[Steel Jaw]

nice but needs to be blue tooth.

[pete_auau]

13 hours ago, Lee1 said:

I'm considering getting a VR headset.  I'm sure it will make dogfighting easier as manipulating the view is a bit of a faff on when concentrating on flying and fighting.  What I can't figure out is how do I use the keyboard for the non-hotas functions with my eyes covered by the VR Headseet?  Do VR headsets come with some sort of hand tracker so I can reach out and put the gear (EG) down?

 

Also, what would you guys recommend?

TIA

 

Lee

simple  solution to  your  key board  command  is  to get  voice  attack, works  wonders   dont  need  to   touch  my keyboard   when using vr,  got  everything  mapped  to voice  attack,  good  thing  about  voice  attack  works  on  everything  else  you got  installed  being  the  other  sims  etc  msfs  p3dv  etc

[Steel Jaw]

agree on voice attack.

[pete_auau]

15 minutes ago, Steel Jaw said:

agree on voice attack.

yep best  purchase  yet:)

[VFA41_Hedgehog]

Have to throw my hat in the ring as well and disagree with the 'once you go VR you can't go back' crowd.

I tried VR.  It was very immersive and pretty cool.

Now the VR headset is collecting dust on the shelf.*  I tried VR and I went back.  I much prefer TrackIR over blindly fumbling for controls with a sweaty slab of heavy hardware strapped to my face.

But to each his own.

*My mother-in-law likes to play the VR alien shooting game when she comes to visit, so it does get used sometimes.

Edited January 11, 2022 by VFA41_Hedgehog

[Ulukai]

VR for Flight-Sims: Before you get in it and spend a lot Money.

You are true, Dogfights (for me) are much more natural and immersive with a VR Headset. Even as an beginner I never had problems to tracking the Bandits. On 2D Screen yes, have Problems . 
About me: I use a VR Headset for DCS and IL2. (Oculus DK2, Oculus Qust, HP Reverb G2). I have a relative good Computer (AMD 5600x, 32GB RAM, RTX2070 ,SSD,..and and and). Advice: Inspecially with HP G2 I recommend a better GPU for DCS! Minimum rtx 3070 (no experience with Radeon) to enjoy it. In Addition with some Tricks its playable for me (DCS Shader Mod + AMD VR FSR Mod + 50% Headset Resolution HP G2 + Motion Reprojection)

In the WWII scenario I prefer definitly IL2 because of its performance and clarity in Game! Yes, thats are two worlds!
Even in higher resolution, DCS has a very blury Graphics in distance. Inside the more modern Jets and BVR combat, it is not so important (for me). The Radar works .

For navigating on your Desk
Finding the Keyboard:
I have a illuminated Keyboard and look through the Nosepart out of my Headsets. (For that a remove the Nose-light-protection at the HP G2. I hope you get what I mean). No Problems at all with it.

Controller Tracking:
In DCS you can click inside the Cockpits with mouse or VR Controller (Quest/HP G2). They are fully compatible and works absolut fine for me.

 

 

[pete_auau]

23 minutes ago, Ulukai said:

I have a illuminated Keyboard and look through the Nosepart out of my Headsets. (For that a remove the Nose-light-protection at the HP G2. I hope you get what I mean). No Problems at all with it.

no need  to if  you got  voice  attack   saves  time  trying  to find  your  key board

[Lurker]

Here are my 2c.

I wish I had never gone the VR route with DCS World, and stuck with TrackIR5.

Let me explain. Once you try VR you can pretty much never go back to 2d in simulations. The immersion is brilliant. But the the constant fiddling with settings, the constant messing about after every single patch, to get playable performance, the extreme expense of getting it run "smoothly", all of that has been a huge letdown and downer. 

The last few patches have been better with regards to VR performance, but that might all break with any of the next patches that come out. In short VR is a huge hassle, and while it is absolutely brilliant when it works, it has caused me more headaches and Windows\DCS reinstallations, expensive hardware upgrades and even then it's still not where it should be with regards to usability. I know I will probably get booed on for this opinion by a lot of dedicated VR users, but it is what it is.

In short, I can't recommend going to VR in DCS World at this moment. 

[Baldrick33]

The tricky bit is discovering what you really enjoy and without trying various configurations of 2d, trackir, VR, button boxes, MFDs, trackballs, HOTAS mouse configurations etc. and with a decent enough PC it can be hard to plan what to spend your hard earned cash on. An awful lot is down to preferences.

I guess a good starting place is what do you do now with DCS and want do you want to do going forward?

I love VR in DCS, it is my favourite VR experience. That said I enjoy the really simple things with it as the immersion just blows me away every time. Be it firing up the Mossie and just flying it to the next airfield, or creating a simple easy mission to blow some stuff up with a reasonable chance of survival!

I also enjoy flicking switches as shallow as that may sound and have an array of button boxes, 3 printed gear & flap levers and so on, all of which I find remarkably easy with a bit of muscle memory. Don't be put off by being blinded from your controls with a headset it is amazing what you can quickly learn by feel and it feels natural after a short time.

Voice attack is good. Personally I only use it for comms (VAICOM) as it feels a bit unreal treating an old aircraft like a modern car (that said I don't use voice control in my car which it has  either). However, I get that real pilots are used to calling out check lists even in single seaters so it isn't that unrealistic - just doesn't work for me.

If you want to run complex single player missions and lots of multiplayer the combination of VR performance and spotting capability may be a serious issue and reduce your enjoyment. I know some VR pilots are exceptionally good but I do feel VR is better for immersion but has some drawbacks for competitive play, so it depends what you want.

[Dragon1-1]

One thing I found for the keyboard specifically, is to find out what functions you need, and to bind them to places you can feel. You can fly even FC3 aircraft with that and a good HOTAS. Generally, those are arrow keys, keys directly above them, F and J keys, keys immediately next to them, enter, spacebar (don't touch that, it's used in many SP campaigns), brackets, backspace and the modifier keys. I also use CTRL+C, because muscle memory from using the shortcut to copy stuff allows me to find it blind. CTRL+V would be in the same boat, but I never needed it. I can also hit CTRL+E quite easily, I've played enough FPSes that the WASD cluster and the immediate surroundings are easily accessible in VR to me.

[nessuno0505]

I went back to flight simulators after many years thanks to VR: oculus rift CV1 and a 1070 to start with, some years ago, and never used anything else than VR. Hotas + mouse + voiceattack since the beginning, I never needed to blindly find for a keyboard key. Now I have a Reverb g2 and a 3080ti and I've added pedals, simshaker jetpad, pointCTRL and vaicom pro: the experience is far superior, but it was perfectly playable even with CV1 and 1070. And I can't go back to flat screen. In VR you have higher situational awareness, you can check your instruments at a glance and it's 3D. DCS or any other flight simulation (Il-2, MSFS, x-plane or whatever) are a totally different game when played in VR vs on a flat screen. And the game you play in VR is far better, IMHO.

[Gruman]

Started with the Rift CV1. Enjoyed it. Upgraded to Rift S. Enjoyed it. Jumped on the Reverb G2 hype... Stopped enjoyed it. I try throwing stuff on the G2 to make it usable (VR Cover, Counter Weight, Lenses), but the small sweetspot of the G2, the whole mess called WMR and DCS Performance is destroying any fun (for me).

Back on 2D on an Ultrawide Monitor. Enjoying the fresh breeze of air and beeing able to see all the beautiful graphics of DCS. Sure, AAR and formation flight performance dropped a lot, but better than the alternative.

But if you enjoy VR , awesome. PointCtrl is a great way to use your cockpit. IMHO VIACOM is overloaded, Voice Attack should be sufficient. Simshaker from Andre is awesome. And if you need a kneeboard with a drawing tablet, check out VRK.

Edited January 11, 2022 by Gruman

[=475FG= Dawger]

I wouldn't bother with flight sims if VR wasn't available.

I have found that VR really appeals to folks who have flown IRL and lacks the "Wow" factor for those who have not.

VR makes me feel like I felt in real airplanes, down to that feeling in your lower gut when you split S and see the earth rushing up at you.

One of the common anecdotes from folks who flew and are now in VR is reaching for things that aren't there. Resting a hand on a canopy bow, trying to flip a switch or trying to block the glare from the sun, all things that happen a lot at first.

My advice is go VR if you have any real world flying experience and you have lots of money to invest in a proper setup. You need a monster computer and an extensive HOTAS/Button box array to avoid the need to lift the mask to see.

If you have no real world experience, VR is worthwhile if you have the cash and are really interested in virtual flying.

If haven't done any real world flying and don't have $5000 to invest (Starting from scratch), you should stick to the pancake.

 

As far as air combat being "easier" in VR. It isn't. You are constrained by the limitations of your neck. Spotting in the mid ranges is MUCH more difficult. DCS performance in a swirling dogfight can be absolutely unplayable if the mission designer doesn't know what he is doing or doesn't care if VR players are in his server.

[VR Flight Guy in PJ Pants]

Just my 2p:

Bad:

• need quite a beefy system to start with
• unless running a really top-end system and headset, the resolution, sharpness and frame rate is nowhere near flat screen, especially like me running with a Quest2
• a lot of time will be spent on tuning the setup, making it a game on its own
• i want to get most performance out of the setup, so I use a lot of mods, which means taking time to learn how to manage them
• as the player is "blind" to the outside world, keyboard will be ditched most of the time. A better HOTAS will be needed so is more peripherals, e.g., I attach a trackpoint mouse on the stick. I train myself so my muscle memory can locate each button and switch in the middle of the heat.

Great:

• total immersion! Not only in BFM and in helo but everything seems more real. Bear in mind the by-standers will find you acting funny.
• view better. I can "feel" the tracers landing, either on me or on the target. I am not saying flying in VR has an edge.
• "hit (by a missile) in the face" has a completely new meaning here.
• people tell me that you can land any helo on a stamp in VR, because I can judge the position and height better. I have yet to achieve that as I think I need more practice.

As for the "neck problem", I would recommend VR Neck Safer. It take my SA to another level but it only works with SteaamVR.

Edited January 11, 2022 by VFGiPJP

[Glide]

VR is great, but it is not a sharp as 2D.  Flying seems more accurate because it's easier to judge heights and distances.  The biggest immersion boost for me was getting a good set of rudder pedals (Virpil Classic).  This puts the whole body into the action.  I still fly 2D for mission building and testing.  I use VR to forget the world exists.

[[HVY] MaverickSawyer]

Throwing my experiences out here...

As others have mentioned, the immersion in VR is truly impressive, even at lower resolutions. And the sense of depth and distance is absolutely a game changer. I used to have trouble with making smooth landings in FSX on a monitor, simply because I lacked any depth perception. Throw on a VR headset in MSFS or DCS, and I think I've crashed on landing only once, and that was because I stupidly locked up the brakes on my Viggen and wheelbarrowed it off the runway. 

Downsides are definitely the performance hit, the lower resolution, and the limited time I can stay "under the hood".

At the end of the day, it's very subjective which is better.

[flyingscotsman]

I looked at VR, hoping to get across before I was retired, however, I'm retired, no VR. It boiled down to too much expense, new pc, new VR unit. And in looking at utube and other sources about what some people who provide us with video's said. Quite a few said they liked VR....but after a time, they were using screens again. So...I got at 34" TV screens,(it fits the space!), Apparently a huge screen becomes bad for your eyes...In any case I'm ok with my decision, get what you can afford and some PC shops will let you try before you buy. My local shop now has a screen and a VR for people to try. 

Good luck 

[Steel Jaw]

12 minutes ago, flyingscotsman said:

My local shop now has a screen and a VR for people to try.

*THIS* is vital and good to see:  VR must be SEEN to judge and the price of admission can be high.

[VR Flight Guy in PJ Pants]

One more thing: as somebody has pointed out, not everyone is comfortable in VR. If one can test before buy, it would be great.

As for the comment regarding fewer people make videos in VR . First, I would say the technology is not all that ready, some time it makes very strange aspect ratio and personally I find it very hard to translate the experience onto 2D screens, on which most people would be watching. Also, please bear in mind that making a video in 2D screen does not mean flying is not in VR. Of course, given the current state of DCS replay, it would not be very cinematic to make videos in VR.

[Baltic Pirate]

Flying VR home is as realistic as flying home gets. I fly for living in real life. Experience is great. With a good setup, just splendid. Beats monitor flying in realism. That is if you are after realism.

[Morat]

Everyone should try VR if they can. If you don't like it, or can't get on with it then at least you've saved yourself a pile of cash.

To do DCS VR properly needs top end EVERYTHING. Let's hope that the new DCS Engine brings meaningful performance upgrades in VR because right now it's marginal - even with my 3080. Don't get me wrong, it's amazing. The sense of being there, of looking out over the wing in 3D and seeing the world swish past is just fantastic. I can read all the gauges, I can spot aircraft far away. I often find it easier to look into weird nooks and crannies in the cockpit in VR than I ever did with head tracking BUT I'm not aware of anyone who is satisfied with the FPS at the high detail levels you need to make it look that good. I'm lucky, I can stand low FPS in VR even down to the low 30s but some people can't and they're unlikely to enjoy extended periods watching the DCS Engine chug away.

For contrast, I can run Half Life Alyx at high everything and it's stunning. I can run DCS in flatland 4k no sweat.. but DCS in VR is a monster.

Of course, it's not just the PC itself. You'll want everything else. Pedals? pfft, need you ask? You'll definitely need a high end HOTAS to map all the controls. You'll find yourself realising that the next time you have a spare £200 you'll probably spend it on extra Warthog grips so you can get to match the VR cockpit with what you can feel in the 18 and the Tomcat. You might find yourself buying a 3D printer so you can print out the Authentikit warbird controls for the same reason. I know I have. The printer is on order right now...

IF you have the system, IF you can live with the performance in DCS then VR flight is just the best Gaming Experience I've ever enjoyed. But If you can bring yourself to fly DCS without VR and you're still happy with the old school, 2D, limited version of DCS then you may just be a very lucky person. Maybe.

 

Edited January 12, 2022 by Morat

[nessuno0505]

Il 11/1/2022 at 13:49, Gruman ha scritto:

Started with the Rift CV1. Enjoyed it. Upgraded to Rift S. Enjoyed it. Jumped on the Reverb G2 hype... Stopped enjoyed it. [...] the small sweetspot of the G2, the whole mess called WMR and DCS Performance is destroying any fun (for me)

[...]

if you need a kneeboard with a drawing tablet

 

I've noticed that if you wear the headset correctly (more "on your nose" than "on the nape" like it was for the Rift s) the sweet spot improves. Yes, on the Rift s it was better (I've done like you: CV1 -> Rift s -> G2), but on the Rift s graphics was blurrier all over the field of view, so it was also less noticeable. The G2 is a lot more clear in the centre, and out of the sweet spot it is not worse than the Rift s. I find the G2 a far superior headset. I also use prescription lenses inserts, that contribute to a clearer image overall.

The problem with WMR and DCS performance is due to steamVR: the default resolution set by steamVR is something like 3100x3100, way higher than the G2 native resolution: it's impossible to have good performance with default steamVR. You have to set rendering resolution to "custom -> 100%" in steamVR settings. It's a bit more than G2 native resolution (steamVR applies some sort of upscaling even at 100%), but with pixel density set to 1 ingame my performance are very good (with a 3080ti), far better than MSFS VR performance, as an example.

For the kneeboard, vaicom pro has a new kneeboard extension that automatically writes down comms such as nine lines and such, and I'm fine with it.

 

Il 11/1/2022 at 14:15, =475FG= Dawger ha scritto:

My advice is go VR if you have any real world flying experience

Apart liners as a passenger, I've flown IRL just once, a trial as a flight student on an ultralight aircraft, a lesson I received as a gift. But it's not diffcult to realize, once you try VR, that there's no other way to pretend you are flying while sat on your office desk other than a VR headset. Monitor is not flying, it's watching an interactive documentary about flying on your TV screen. It's just my own opinion, but I think I wouldn't be so interested in flight simulation if there wasn't VR.

15 minuti fa, Morat ha scritto:

You might find yourself buying a 3D printer so you can print out the Authentikit warbird controls for the same reason.

I have a 3d printer but have no idea about authentikit. I'll check. But I've tried to 3d print and assemble (without success) an arduino-based collective helicopter, so I can understand...

Edited January 12, 2022 by nessuno0505

[Morat]

3 minutes ago, nessuno0505 said:

I have a 3d printer but have no idea about authentikit. I'll check. But I've tried to 3d print and assemble (without success) an arduino-based collective helicopter, so I can understand...

https://discord.gg/ES8kHSRB

Welcome to the madness

[Gruman]

9 hours ago, nessuno0505 said:

I've noticed that if you wear the headset correctly (more "on your nose" than "on the nape" like it was for the Rift s) the sweet spot improves. Yes, on the Rift s it was better (I've done like you: CV1 -> Rift s -> G2), but on the Rift s graphics was blurrier all over the field of view, so it was also less noticeable. The G2 is a lot more clear in the centre, and out of the sweet spot it is not worse than the Rift s. I find the G2 a far superior headset. I also use prescription lenses inserts, that contribute to a clearer image overall.

The problem with WMR and DCS performance is due to steamVR: the default resolution set by steamVR is something like 3100x3100, way higher than the G2 native resolution: it's impossible to have good performance with default steamVR. You have to set rendering resolution to "custom -> 100%" in steamVR settings. It's a bit more than G2 native resolution (steamVR applies some sort of upscaling even at 100%), but with pixel density set to 1 ingame my performance are very good (with a 3080ti), far better than MSFS VR performance, as an example.

For the kneeboard, vaicom pro has a new kneeboard extension that automatically writes down comms such as nine lines and such, and I'm fine with it.

Thanks for your input. I might suspect IPD as a contributor to the bad sweetspot. Sure, it has manual adjustment, but the range appears to be to small for me. Did the prescription lenses increased or decreased your sweet spot? My right eye is corrected with contact lense, but my left could use a small correction.

Been through that SteamVR resolution "Minigame" many times. Just a hassle. Same as the flickering screen on loading or when the HMD loses track and gives you only a 3DOF movement range... 

WMR Support for DCS or SteamVR direct support for G2 would be the best solution... But will never come. Will see if there will be an Index 2.

Edited January 13, 2022 by Gruman