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VR or not VR, that is the question!


Lee1

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10 hours ago, nessuno0505 said:

The problem with WMR and DCS performance is due to steamVR: the default resolution set by steamVR is something like 3100x3100, way higher than the G2 native resolution: it's impossible to have good performance with default steamVR.

That reflects the design of the G2 compared to the G1. They use the same resolution panel but the lenses in the G2 are different and to improve image quality are designed to be oversampled by default. Steam are just applying the "correct" resolution to optimise the image quality. The G2 isn't designed to be run at the native resolution of the panel. For these reasons I sold my G2 and kept my G1 as my 2080Ti wasn't capable of pushing the G2 to the levels to see much if any benefit image wise in DCS. Of course there are other benefits of the G2 over the G1 but not enough for me.

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FWIW, I've flown DCS over the last couple years with my hardware evolving from inadequate (GTX 1660) to average (RX 5700XT) to solid (RX 6800XT).  I've flown with the Odyssey+ and the Reverb G2.  At no point was VR counterproductive or impossible--it has always been a quantitative difference of quality-of-life and what i need to give up, rather than go/no-go. 

Likewise, I have not seen game-breaking problems with DCS updates over that time, nor has performance suddenly worsened or improved.  There have been incremental changes, and different modules/terrains remain different in terms of performance, but the only time I considered taking a break from VR DCS was those few weeks when we had jittery clouds after the 2.7 cloud update.

I have flown with head-tracking, and while I'm always envious of the visual detail on my big screen, I have a strong reason to stick with VR--I get instantly nauseous with head-tracking on the flat screen, which is weird since I do not have any such problems in VR.  I suspect it's the non-1:1 head tracking with flat screens that causes problems, but I've not heard of anyone else having such issues but not in VR

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On 1/10/2022 at 1:38 PM, hannibal said:

if u never done VR, you will have to do a little bit each day till you get used to VR

search for a term called "VR legs"

if you try to VR for the first time for long periods, you will feel sick

*some* people will find that. some will not. I went from zero to many hours with no problems at all. And others get sick instantly.

To the OP - VR. Always VR. It’s amazing, as long as you can get your head around the fact that you will be very very very unlikely to get the performance and image quality you currently get in 2D, and then spend ages trying to tweak your setup to get that perfect balance. And then find it, just as a new release comes out and the performance game changes, so you have to start tweaking again.

But… it’s totally worth it. 

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All I can tell you is this, I've been flying VR for 2 years now.  I went from an Oculus Rift, to the Rift-S and now to the G2 Reverb.  I cannot fly now without my VR headset.  Going from track-ir to VR was like going from nothing to track-ir.  I cannot fly with track IR anymore.   VR makes THAT much of a difference for me.  So I hope that helps.

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55 minutes ago, HotTom said:

If it sooooo wonderful, why are there so many bellyaching posts from VR users in the forum?

Because you spend half the time tweaking it.

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1 hour ago, =475FG= Dawger said:

VR in DCS is analogous to a smoking hot yet crazy, high maintenance girlfriend. Incredible amounts of fun but, when she isn’t around, its easy to find fault.

Yeah. I had one of those. She wanted a Louis Vuitton handbag. Well it ended up as no bag, no hag kind of way.

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Am 10.1.2022 um 18:23 schrieb Razor68:

Not true, i have never been or felt sick while using vr.

I gave my VR away as I never got over the motion sickness.

It's a very valid arguement, try it out before you buy. You might end up throwing up after 20min....been there.

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11 ore fa, HotTom ha scritto:

If it sooooo wonderful, why are there so many bellyaching posts from VR users in the forum?

Because the average dcs user is demanding. We complain about the many bugs, the old modules left unattended for years, the lack of coherent historical settings, the excessive development times, the bad performance and spotting (not only in VR). But we are always here, ready to wide open the wallets for the next hyped pre-order. DCS is not a bed of roses, but if we must be honest it has one of the best VR implementation among the flight simulators I know: X-plane has lower performance and a very badly implemented VR mouse, MSFS is a brick in performance and the cockpit shakes, maybe il-2 great battles Is better in VR but it does not even have a mouse (no clickable cockpit) and the airplanes are all "FC3 style".

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The conclusion is that there is no best solution. There are pros and cons with VR.

As long as people understand this before spending lots of $$$.

Flight simming is not cheap when you go serious. In addition to a VR headset you often end up needing/desiring:

  • High end PC (and GPU!)
  • HOTAS 
  • Table mounts etc.
  • Many modules in DCS 😉

If you go monitor- or VR-way (or both) it is not free.


Edited by MIghtymoo

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On 1/15/2022 at 2:32 AM, HotTom said:

If it sooooo wonderful, why are there so many bellyaching posts from VR users in the forum?

Because there is no performance overhead, so those people who do less PC maintenance and upkeep struggle and those who trim all the fat off their PCs and learn the processes behind optimising struggle less. 2D DCS isn't completely plug and play but the fps rates required are much easier to obtain and therefore less vulnerable to general system overhead and marginal setting tweaks across the board.

VR has been around for a few years but as a new area for consumer tech it is still climbing to reach its potential. In another 3-5 years crisp and smooth visuals will be much easer to obtain and so it will therefore be much closer to plug and play. Probably cheaper too.


Edited by Hoirtel
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33 minutes ago, Hoirtel said:

Because there is no performance overhead, so those people who do less PC maintenance and upkeep struggle and those who trim all the fat off their PCs and learn the processes behind optimising struggle less. 2D DCS isn't completely plug and play but the fps rates required are much easier to obtain and therefore less vulnerable to general system overhead and marginal setting tweaks across the board.

VR has been around for a few years but as a new area for consumer tech it is still climbing to reach its potential. In another 3-5 years crisp and smooth visuals will be much easer to obtain and so it will therefore be much closer to plug and play. Probably cheaper too.

 

I could not agree more. One could say that VR is in its infancy. My rather uneducated prediction is that VR tech will go the same way as mobile phones did, virtual explosion of new tech and capabilities. 

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On 1/15/2022 at 3:32 AM, HotTom said:

If it sooooo wonderful, why are there so many bellyaching posts from VR users in the forum?

You just gave half an answer to your own question. It's great, but it's a huge hassle. Requiring some of the most powerful hardware to even run properly, and even then it has a lot of issues. 

the absolute WORST part of VR is that you can't go back to 2d in Simulations. Ever. 


Edited by Lurker

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50 minutes ago, Baltic Pirate said:

I could not agree more. One could say that VR is in its infancy. My rather uneducated prediction is that VR tech will go the same way as mobile phones did, virtual explosion of new tech and capabilities. 

Yes and like mobile phones (and all other tech) it will eventually plateau and the generational gains will be smaller as we reach the clearest and smoothest graphics. Last year I wouldn't have said that VR would ever get that mainstream as I thought it would always be a bit niche, however there have been non-gaming headsets annouced and apparently apple are making one? Its seems whatever apple make gets purchased in huge numbers....

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1 minute ago, Lurker said:

the absolute WORST part of VR is that you can't go back to 2d in Simulations. Ever.

One of the most quoted statements regarding VR. Ever. But repeating in over and over again doesn't make it true for everyone. Even this thread has multiple opposite opinions featured...

VR has it Pros and Cons and not everyone comes to the conclusion, that the Pros outweighs the Cons.

I don't intend to downplay VR and its merits, I like it myself occasionally!

Nice thing is, no one throws away his monitor for obvious reasons, so you can always choose.

"Muß ich denn jedes Mal, wenn ich sauge oder saugblase den Schlauchstecker in die Schlauchnut schieben?"

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8 minutes ago, Lurker said:

the absolute WORST part of VR is that you can't go back to 2d in Simulations. Ever. 

 

Never thought about it like that. But thats true for me... Just can't quite immerse myself it it properly anymore while I can still see my room, pc etc

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3 minutes ago, Hiob said:

One of the most quoted statements regarding VR. Ever. But repeating in over and over again doesn't make it true for everyone. Even this thread has multiple opposite opinions featured...

 

Of course not everyone feels that way, but it's definitely something to consider when thinking about switching to VR. 


Edited by Lurker

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Or, try using an OLED display with the right size and positioning (a 48" display results in an outstanding experience, as far as I'm concerned: for flight simulations, I have positioned it 50 cm in front of me, with an in-game FOV set to 90°). I have also used an Index for an abuntant number of hours... what I would say is that no one can tell you what's right for you: you see the quantity and quality of divergent opinions on the subject...

Trust your own experience.

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38 minutes ago, Hoirtel said:

Yes and like mobile phones (and all other tech) it will eventually plateau and the generational gains will be smaller as we reach the clearest and smoothest graphics. Last year I wouldn't have said that VR would ever get that mainstream as I thought it would always be a bit niche, however there have been non-gaming headsets annouced and apparently apple are making one? Its seems whatever apple make gets purchased in huge numbers....

Same. I always figured VR would be a niche for real hardcore geeks etc. But here I am flying exclusively on VR, if not flying IRL. If Apple is good, it will sell. Again it depends on integration etc.

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3 hours ago, Baltic Pirate said:

If Apple is good, it will sell. Again it depends on integration etc.

Everything Apple does integrates with Apple first and foremost. Since there aren't many people gaming on Apple machines due to weak gaming graphics power and thus lack of actual gaming content then whatever apple comes up with in VR dept will most likely be limited to iphone/ipad type of apps. To get in to VR desktop realm they've got a lot of work to do on top of a headset alone.

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2 hours ago, peachmonkey said:

Everything Apple does integrates with Apple first and foremost. Since there aren't many people gaming on Apple machines due to weak gaming graphics power and thus lack of actual gaming content then whatever apple comes up with in VR dept will most likely be limited to iphone/ipad type of apps. To get in to VR desktop realm they've got a lot of work to do on top of a headset alone.

Pretty much. Hence I went back to PC and windows products.  Granted oo have an iPad/iPhone etc, but for sims and VR it’s PC.

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On 1/10/2022 at 11:16 AM, Hiob said:

sorry, but I'd like to disagree. For some(!) people there is no going back. I like flying in VR from time to time, but it will take a while until visual fidelity will be on par with 2D (given both use the amount of computing power) - and at least for now I prefer 2D over 3D if I actually planning on doing something (other than enjoying the flight).

So, this is certainly only a single subjective opinion. But it kind of shows that the above statement isn't universally true.

Edit: On Topic. I use the mouse for clicking stuff in the cockpit. Except for Hotas Stuff. I only wished the cursor would disappear faster....

 

Yup, there is just nothing like the clarity, comfort, convenience and usability of a good monitor (ultrawide or superwide preferably) and head tracking. My VR headset hasn't been used in months I'm thinking about selling it if it wasn't for all the software on it and fun at parties. I will probably always be a monitor guy, unless I get a projection dome that is.

 

On 1/10/2022 at 6:38 PM, hannibal said:

look up audio transducer.

once you have a bass shaker, buy andre's sound module for his simshaker software.

Attest to this, Andre's software for both racing and flight sims is completely awesome. A bit pricey but totally awesome and he's a really great guy who is very attentive to his customers, I've spoken with him personally.

 

On 1/10/2022 at 8:55 PM, peachmonkey said:

1) you could buy a complete system from Buttkicker website. It's $200 in USA.

https://thebuttkicker.com/products/buttkicker-gamer2-haptic-transducer

2) you could build your own (like @hannibal said above). It's a pretty simple setup:

- get a bass transducer (50W minimum, it's literally a low/sub-bass  frequency speaker), search on amazon (e.g. Dayton Audio BST-1 High Power Pro Tactile Bass Shaker 50 Watts) = ~$50 to $60 in USA

- get a bass amp (50W for single or 100w for 2 transducers), again on amazon (e.g. Nobsound G2 Subwoofer Power Amplifier Mini Mono SUB Amp 100W). Make sure it comes with a power adapter as some of these amps don't.  = ~$50 to $60 in USA

- get some speaker wire (anything above 16 gauge is fine, but the thinner the better, less power loss) to connect the amp to the transducer = ~$10 in USA

- get some 3.8mm to 3.8mm male-to-male cable so you can connect the little bass amp to your sound card line out port.

all this stuff is plug&play, there's no need to solder anything.

3) Get Simshaker software from Andre's webshop, specifically "Simshaker Sound Module". It's a software the receives the telemetry from DCS and then translates it in to Sound, which it then outputs to the bassamp+transducer via your computer soundcard. It processes several telemetry types, i.e. engine beat, afterburner, guns, landing gear, flaps, etc.. etc..  = ~$25 in USA

 

Building your own system allows you to have as many bass shakers as your soul desires. 🙂   The only catch is you need to have a dedicated sound card for the SimShaker software to work, at least that's how it was when I built it. If you don't have a separate sound card then you buy a USB one for $10 on amazon.

I know it's a wall of text, but don't fret, this is all very very simple to setup.

I have two set ups, a Buttkicker 2 and one I compiled myself. I use both simultaneously, one for bass rumble working off a Soundblaster sound card I play the game sounds through and one that runs on the integrated motherboard sound device utilizing Andre's Simshaker modules for detailed event feedback. The ladder setup I put together from a 90 watt bass amp and 50 watt Dayton bass transducer, got both on Amazon. It was cheaper than the Buttkicker and dare I say, probably going to be more reliable in the long run. Lower gauge (fatter) wires aren't going to rob any power and will be more robust. I have a dedicated SB soundcard I use for my game/pc audio, I use the integrated motherboard sound card for the sim shaker running Andre's software and it works great, no need for two dedicated sound cards. Most important thing is that the impedance (Ohms) of the amp are equal to or lower than the impedance (Ohms) of the audio transducer or you'll burn up the amp. Running a 50 watt transducer on a 90 watt single channel amp is no problem, most of those transducers are rated in RMS power while the amps are usually listed at peak, but not always. Regardless, just don't overdrive your transducer, it's effectively a bass speaker without the voice cone so if you know anything about bass systems, yeah, it's the frequency as much as the power. Just start low and slow and work the setting up to a point that is acceptable for you. Also, if you use a 8 Ohm transducer on a 4 Ohm amp it isn't going to be giving you the full wattage anyways.

On 1/10/2022 at 9:55 PM, VFA41_Hedgehog said:

Have to throw my hat in the ring as well and disagree with the 'once you go VR you can't go back' crowd.

I tried VR.  It was very immersive and pretty cool.

Now the VR headset is collecting dust on the shelf.*  I tried VR and I went back.  I much prefer TrackIR over blindly fumbling for controls with a sweaty slab of heavy hardware strapped to my face.

But to each his own.

*My mother-in-law likes to play the VR alien shooting game when she comes to visit, so it does get used sometimes.

 

Not to beat a dead horse but if you love VR in DCS, happy for you. I personally find VR perfect for sim racing but not much else, where you just settle into your car and don't really take your hands off the wheel. Also, in racing, you only look into the corners, with flight sims, to see a bandit behind you you have to shift in your office chair and cock your neck all the way back while keeping your hands on the controls and, while I know it's more of how real fighter pilots work, they also aren't sitting in office chairs that swivel with HOTA on the desk. Also, eating, drinking, alt tabbing and pulling up other windows, glancing at a second or third monitor with whatever data on it, taking notes, typing, etc. it's all much harder to near impossible in VR. Even itching your nose is a PITA.


Edited by rfxcasey
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1 hour ago, rfxcasey said:

 Also, eating, drinking, alt tabbing and pulling up other windows, glancing at a second or third monitor with whatever data on it, taking notes, typing, etc. it's all much harder to near impossible in VR. Even itching your nose is a PITA.

Excellent and valid points.

"You see, IronHand is my thing"

My specs:  W10 Pro, I5/11600K o/c to 4800 @1.32v, 64 GB 3200 XML RAM, ASUS RTX3060ti/8GB.

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On 1/10/2022 at 7:17 AM, Lee1 said:

I'm considering getting a VR headset.  I'm sure it will make dogfighting easier as manipulating the view is a bit of a faff on when concentrating on flying and fighting.  What I can't figure out is how do I use the keyboard for the non-hotas functions with my eyes covered by the VR Headseet?  Do VR headsets come with some sort of hand tracker so I can reach out and put the gear (EG) down?

 

Also, what would you guys recommend?

TIA

 

Lee

I have a x52 and a gaming mouse that has another 12 buttons on the side, I rarely have to use keyboard and I only fly in VR now

 

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