R-33 Possibly Underperforming

[Exorcet]

Reading the patch notes, it seems a few missiles were updated with new flight dynamics. I decided to test them starting with the R-33. The FM has certainly changed as the missile has believable energy bleed in turns, but the overall speed and range seem lacking for a Phoenix like missile.

The AI only seems to launch at 25-30 miles under standard conditions (head on, Mach 1+, ~35000 ft) and the missile doesn't even reach R-27ER speeds. I tried to get the AI to launch from altitude at extreme speed, but it stubbornly descends before launching a missile. I'll have to try a few more things to see if I can get the AI to fire high.

Is this the final model for the R-33? I expected it to outrange AMRAAM, but it's the other way around. Even with 120B's I can defeat the R-33 from a disadvantageous position.

[BrzI]

This missile has been severely dumbed down.

The speed used to be over 4000 kmh.

Declared speed of 3.5Mach is around 4320 kmh.

The motor now cuts out at 3000 kmh.

AI launches from very short distances.

This missile should be slightly worse than a Phoenix. As it stands now it is worse than a R27RE.

I think this needs a fix.

Edited January 16, 2022 by BrzI

[Exorcet]

Any word from the devs on this?

As of the latest OB patch AIM-54 long range launches are now performed by the AI. The R-33 is still used like a MRM and seems to be pretty low speed to boot. I actually tested a MiG-31 set to max range lunch and it chose to fire R-40's before R-33's.

[Flappie]

To obtain a max distance launch (~50 km for the R-33 missile), you need to place the max distance launch instruction on top of the aircraft task list, otherwise the R-33 will be launched from a much shorter distance.

Here are two tracks nearly identical. The only thing that changes in the mission is the position of the max distance launch instruction in the task list.

In the "50 km" track, the R-33 missile reaches 3700 km/h while flying at an altitude of 10 000m. Is that acceptable for you?

30 km.trk 50 km.trk example mission.miz

Edited January 29, 2022 by Flappie

[Exorcet]

6 hours ago, Flappie said:

To obtain a max distance launch (~50 km for the R-33 missile), you need to place the max distance launch instruction on top of the aircraft task list, otherwise the R-33 will be launched from a much shorter distance.

I'm aware of the default missile option, I actually opened another thread requesting to change the default back to the old one because random is way to random and will sometimes result in BVR missiles being held until WVR ranges:

 

The problem here is that the R-33 has worse range and speed than medium range missiles despite being a long range missile. It should act more like the AIM-54, yet it is outclassed by the AIM-120, R-27ER, and even its predecessor the R-40.

 

 

R33CompareShort.trk R33CompareLong.trk

[Маэстро]

R-33 ballistics is correct(yes, it's slightly worse than R-27ER). R-33 outclassed by R-40 because R-40 overperformed and requires adjustment.

[Ironhand]

13 hours ago, Flappie said:

To obtain a max distance launch (~50 km for the R-33 missile), you need to place the max distance launch instruction on top of the aircraft task list,…

Unfortunately that’s the same range I can get out of an AI firing R-27ERs. So there’s an issue somewhere.

[Flappie]

36 minutes ago, Ironhand said:

So there’s an issue somewhere.

Not according to devs.

[Ironhand]

1 hour ago, Flappie said:

Not according to devs.

That settles it then, I guess. The R-33 is a medium-range missile on par with the R-27ER.

[Exorcet]

Interesting. I would not have guessed. Unfortunately for me I don't have any hard data on the R-33 so I'm in no position to dispute, if the performance in DCS is accurate, then it is what it is.

[BrzI]

Sorry - I am not buying this story. If you look at even the very first version of the R-33 it behaved better (in terms of top speed and range) than what we currently have in the sim.

The example mission has 4 R-33 and nothing else. But when I add an R40R and R40T the Mig31 will actually launch an R40R first.
There is no logic to this as the declared operational range for the R40R is smaller than the R33.
There is something not right here - imho

But as the devs seem content with it's current state we will just agree to disagree and move on.

Thanks

Edited June 21, 2022 by BrzI
Added arguments

[Vakarian]

Devs literally said that R-40 is overperforming and needs to be fixed couple of posts up

[BrzI]

Yeah, still leaves the R-33 under performing in my opinion. But that is only my opinion.

Will not be losing sleep over this though...

[okopanja]

The R-40 itself was used to down the FA-18, and allegedly damage/down F-15C.

According to the "F-15 Eagle vs Mig-23/25" by Douglas C. Dildy and Tom Cooper, page 49:

Iraqi Mig-25PD pilot Lt Zuhair Dawoud said the following about downing of the FA-18:

Quote

I locked the target 38km [20.5 miles] from me and at 29km [15.6 miles] I fired the R-40RD missile from under my right wing. I kept the target locked with my radar [un]till I witnessed a huge explosion in front of me.

It would seem that he was on the intercept course toward formation of FA-18s, but I could not make it out what was the aspect.

[Coxy_99]

I also believe its under powered, But like devs says 120 has been fixed and no one believes the devs, Title should say investigating like any other missile performance.  

[Ironhand]

I had forgotten all about this thread until I got the notification the other day that it had been posted to again. Since I frequently see this missile referred to as a high altitude, high speed missile, I decided test it using it as such. High altitude, high speed MiG-31 against a high altitude, high speed, B1-B bomber. I first attempted to use it against an SR-71 for the extra altitude but couldn't get the MiG to launch against the mod for some reason.

To make a long story short, the missile was launched at 85 km which is the longest I've seen. More interesting however, was that the missile reached a top speed in excess of Mach 5 and was still traveling in excess of Mach 3, when it hit.

This makes me wonder, if the limitation is the MiG-31 rather than the missile. Based on missile's speed at impact, I think the likely range that shot could have traveled would have been around 100km. That happens to be the range (100 km) at which I can launch an R-27ER in the above scenario. The advertised max range for the R-27ER (not -ER1) is usually quoted as 130 km. The max range for the R-33E is usually quoted as being 120-160 km. Against a fast and higher flying aircraft such as the SR-71, the ranges of both missiles in my tests probably would have been closer to their advertised limits. So, I'm thinking that I might have been both wrong and right in my statement in an earlier post. I may have been wrong in thinking that the R-33 was terribly under performing. The R-33 is really a missile which is similar to the R-27ER, when it comes to range. Or, at least, it's not as bad as I originally thought.

TacView and TRK attached.

Tacview-20220622-230541-DCS-R-33 Range Test.zip.acmi R-33__85km Launch.trk

Edited June 23, 2022 by Ironhand

[Top Jockey]

Hello everyone,

 

I've tried long range BVR shots between my F-14A vs the MiG-31 ( AI ), expecting it to pose a credible dificulty / threat, as it is supposed to be a "Long Range Interceptor".

... but no avail, as it never shot its R-33 against my Tomcat from greater distances.

Indeed it always fired its R-40R before the R-33, and certainly always from less than half the distance I was able to shot him with my AIM-54's.

 

So I've read all the answers here, including @Маэстро's one, but I'm still with the doubt :

- is the relatively "short" range of the R-33 in DCS correct - as is in real life ?

- or, is the R-33's range under performing in DCS ?

 

Is the R-33 maximum range / reach / distance supposed to be close the the AIM-54 afterall or not ?

 

Thank you.

[AeriaGloria]

On 6/23/2022 at 8:41 AM, Ironhand said:

I had forgotten all about this thread until I got the notification the other day that it had been posted to again. Since I frequently see this missile referred to as a high altitude, high speed missile, I decided test it using it as such. High altitude, high speed MiG-31 against a high altitude, high speed, B1-B bomber. I first attempted to use it against an SR-71 for the extra altitude but couldn't get the MiG to launch against the mod for some reason.

To make a long story short, the missile was launched at 85 km which is the longest I've seen. More interesting however, was that the missile reached a top speed in excess of Mach 5 and was still traveling in excess of Mach 3, when it hit.

This makes me wonder, if the limitation is the MiG-31 rather than the missile. Based on missile's speed at impact, I think the likely range that shot could have traveled would have been around 100km. That happens to be the range (100 km) at which I can launch an R-27ER in the above scenario. The advertised max range for the R-27ER (not -ER1) is usually quoted as 130 km. The max range for the R-33E is usually quoted as being 120-160 km. Against a fast and higher flying aircraft such as the SR-71, the ranges of both missiles in my tests probably would have been closer to their advertised limits. So, I'm thinking that I might have been both wrong and right in my statement in an earlier post. I may have been wrong in thinking that the R-33 was terribly under performing. The R-33 is really a missile which is similar to the R-27ER, when it comes to range. Or, at least, it's not as bad as I originally thought.

TacView and TRK attached.

Tacview-20220622-230541-DCS-R-33 Range Test.zip.acmi 30.64 kB · 5 downloads R-33__85km Launch.trk 54.47 kB · 2 downloads

 

Yes, it really seems like, the true reason for R-33 on MiG-31 was not to compete with Phoenix in range necessarily, but to have a R-27ER class missile that could be stored as 4 missiles under the fuselage close together. Something the long and large finned R-27ER can not 

 

1 hour ago, Top Jockey said:

Hello everyone,

 

I've tried long range BVR shots between my F-14A vs the MiG-31 ( AI ), expecting it to pose a credible dificulty / threat, as it is supposed to be a "Long Range Interceptor".

... but no avail, as it never shot its R-33 against my Tomcat from greater distances.

Indeed it always fired its R-40R before the R-33, and certainly always from less than half the distance I was able to shot him with my AIM-54's.

 

So I've read all the answers here, including @Маэстро's one, but I'm still with the doubt :

- is the relatively "short" range of the R-33 in DCS correct - as is in real life ?

- or, is the R-33's range under performing in DCS ?

 

Is the R-33 maximum range / reach / distance supposed to be close the the AIM-54 afterall or not ?

 

Thank you.

The devs and DCS seems to show it being a R-27ER class missile. And Ironhands mentioning of the stated max range has the R-27ER max range within it (120-160 km vs 130). 
 

So no I wouldn’t say it’s supposed to be close to Phoenix range in any case, it can’t loft either. I wonder what ranges you would get from the Phoenix from not lofting and how shorter those ranges would be, but that’s a different discussion. 
 

And as the deg mentioned. The R-40 currently overperforms, and needs to be tuned. As they mentioned, you can always move the “launch missile at max range” task to the highest level to force an AI to shoot the longest range missile first. So once R-40 is tuned; I think all will be better. 
 

It’s a shame we can’t fly the MiG-31 to get a taste of how speed and altitude can really make a difference for R-33E

[Top Jockey]

23 minutes ago, AeriaGloria said:

Yes, it really seems like, the true reason for R-33 on MiG-31 was not to compete with Phoenix in range necessarily, but to have a R-27ER class missile that could be stored as 4 missiles under the fuselage close together. Something the long and large finned R-27ER can not 

 

The devs and DCS seems to show it being a R-27ER class missile. And Ironhands mentioning of the stated max range has the R-27ER max range within it (120-160 km vs 130). 
 

So no I wouldn’t say it’s supposed to be close to Phoenix range in any case, it can’t loft either. I wonder what ranges you would get from the Phoenix from not lofting and how shorter those ranges would be, but that’s a different discussion. 
 

And as the deg mentioned. The R-40 currently overperforms, and needs to be tuned. As they mentioned, you can always move the “launch missile at max range” task to the highest level to force an AI to shoot the longest range missile first. So once R-40 is tuned; I think all will be better. 
 

It’s a shame we can’t fly the MiG-31 to get a taste of how speed and altitude can really make a difference for R-33E

 

Thank you for the insight.

That's a pity; in that case the J-11 or Su-30 mod (and not the MiG-31) seem to have the longest reach AA missiles from the "Red side"...

 

The Phonenix is doing a Loft profile as follows:

- when fired from above 40.000 ft altitude;

- starts a pitch up climbing maneuver of 51 degrees;

- and gets to 148.000 ft altitude before starting slowly the descending part of its flight.

 

... is the above realistic ?

Edited August 18, 2022 by Top Jockey

[AeriaGloria]

6 minutes ago, Top Jockey said:

 

Thank you for the insight.

That's a pity; in that case the J-11 or Su-30 mod (and not the MiG-31) seem to have the longest reach AA missiles from the "Red side"...

 

The Phonenix is doing a Loft profile as follows:

- when fired from above 40.000 ft altitude;

- starts a pitch up climbing maneuver of 51 degrees;

- and gets to 148.000 ft altitude before starting slowly the descending part of its flight.

 

... is the above realistic ?

 

For Phoenix? I have no idea, they make sense but I don’t know anything about loft figures for the Phoenix. I just know that the Phoenix lofts a lot, and that boosts total range by decreasing max speed and using rocket power to build potential energy and fly through less dense air. 
 

Since R-27/33 don’t loft, they can’t go as far, but can reach their max ranges faster then AMRAAM could reach similar range, becuase loft also reduces the average speed of the missile

[Exorcet]

On 6/23/2022 at 11:41 AM, Ironhand said:

This makes me wonder, if the limitation is the MiG-31 rather than the missile. Based on missile's speed at impact, I think the likely range that shot could have traveled would have been around 100km.

It certainly doesn't help that when I tell 31's to engage from high and fast, they tend to lower altitude to attack... The AI needs some interceptor specific attack profiles for sure. And on the MiG-25/31 themselves, I've always wondered how well they are modeled as they don't really hold speed up high.

Edited August 18, 2022 by Exorcet

[jojo]

On 8/19/2022 at 1:30 AM, Exorcet said:

It certainly doesn't help that when I tell 31's to engage from high and fast, they tend to lower altitude to attack... The AI needs some interceptor specific attack profiles for sure. And on the MiG-25/31 themselves, I've always wondered how well they are modeled as they don't really hold speed up high.

 

In my experience, if you let MiG-25 or MiG-31 at subsonic speed, they are disappointing.
But if you set them at M2.0 or M2.5, they can give you a run for your money

[Exorcet]

16 minutes ago, jojo said:

In my experience, if you let MiG-25 or MiG-31 at subsonic speed, they are disappointing.
But if you set them at M2.0 or M2.5, they can give you a run for your money

I typically try to set them at high speed initially, but even in those cases they like to continuously slow down. Although I've also noticed fuel state has a huge impact on their performance. It makes sense that they might need to burn off some fuel to attain max speed, but on the other hand, the AI is pretty bad at fuel management so it can create other problems.

[Ironhand]

Several weeks ago, I installed the MiG-31 mod wondering what I might see. Even though I could lock the target (B-1B, IIRC) earlier, I did not get launch authorization until the same 85 km that I had had with the AI in my June post in this thread.

Edited September 1, 2022 by Ironhand