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Icing conditions


Mike Busutil

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  • 2 weeks later...
  • 2 weeks later...
On 1/31/2022 at 7:22 PM, =475FG= Dawger said:

Properly simulating airframe icing is not worth the effort for the sort of aircraft modeled by DCS. 

Like, say, the F-14, which, if you don't pay attention, will clear 40kft before you notice your climb has ran away from you? Airframe icing is definitely a factor with fighter aircraft, they fly high and in all sorts of weather conditions. They also get shot at, so you might suddenly find yourself without your anti-ice system in a situation where it'd be handy. 

If anything, the maps are a problem, what with almost all modern maps being rather balmy places with not much in terms of icing, but as it happens, the one notable exception is also the default free map that everyone has, and Caucasus does have severe winters. We're also getting Falklands, which aren't exactly tropical. Then there's helicopters, which really have to worry about ice.

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16 hours ago, Dragon1-1 said:

Like, say, the F-14, which, if you don't pay attention, will clear 40kft before you notice your climb has ran away from you? Airframe icing is definitely a factor with fighter aircraft, they fly high and in all sorts of weather conditions. They also get shot at, so you might suddenly find yourself without your anti-ice system in a situation where it'd be handy. 

If anything, the maps are a problem, what with almost all modern maps being rather balmy places with not much in terms of icing, but as it happens, the one notable exception is also the default free map that everyone has, and Caucasus does have severe winters. We're also getting Falklands, which aren't exactly tropical. Then there's helicopters, which really have to worry about ice.

In my rather extensive experience flying in real world icing conditions, airframe icing is of concern only at low altitudes and icing layers are generally in narrow altitude bands. 
 

While these narrow bands can be a major headache for low performance piston engine aircraft, they are usually pretty much only a minor annoyance in a jet. 
 

You turn on the anti-ice during climb for a few minutes and again for a few minutes during descent. And this is only in very particular types of weather. 
 

It would be a major coding effort to build properly modeled airframe ice inducing weather for very little effect on gameplay.

 

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1 hour ago, =475FG= Dawger said:

While these narrow bands can be a major headache for low performance piston engine aircraft, they are usually pretty much only a minor annoyance in a jet. 

One word: helicopters. As in, the other major part of DCS. While not exactly low performance the way GA aircraft are, when loaded up they need every bit of power they can get, and they don't usually fly very high. Locking a helo out of particular altitude band can be painful for tactical reasons, and while cold air in general is good for them, deicers can take away some engine power, another thing you don't want in, say, a fully loaded Hind. 

Also, there is a form of icing at high altitude, called ice crystal icing. It's not something a GA (or a helo) pilot would encounter very often, and it's not "airframe icing" because crystals don't stick, but it can damage an engine. That's mostly what I was referring to.

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23 hours ago, Dragon1-1 said:

One word: helicopters. As in, the other major part of DCS. While not exactly low performance the way GA aircraft are, when loaded up they need every bit of power they can get, and they don't usually fly very high. Locking a helo out of particular altitude band can be painful for tactical reasons, and while cold air in general is good for them, deicers can take away some engine power, another thing you don't want in, say, a fully loaded Hind. 

Also, there is a form of icing at high altitude, called ice crystal icing. It's not something a GA (or a helo) pilot would encounter very often, and it's not "airframe icing" because crystals don't stick, but it can damage an engine. That's mostly what I was referring to.

I am not arguing either way regarding whether or not airframe or engine icing is a factor on operations. My position is that properly simulating the atmosphere for these conditions is not worth the effort, even for helicopter.

Airframe icing occurs in visible moisture. Helicopters in DCS are not going to operating much in those conditions.

And the phenomena of "ice crystal icing" is something I never heard of or encountered flying at altitudes up to 51,000 feet all over the world. Every cloud above the freezing level is in ice crystal form and is completely harmless to jet engines. Even flying through the heaviest snow has no effect.

Jet engines are tested for water ingestion resistance, usually with a massive streams of water directed into the running engine.

 

 

 

 

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vor 28 Minuten schrieb =475FG= Dawger:

I am not arguing either way regarding whether or not airframe or engine icing is a factor on operations. My position is that properly simulating the atmosphere for these conditions is not worth the effort, even for helicopter.

 

In my opinion, it is well worth the effort. Icing is an important factor in aviation and I think it is important that it is also taken into account in DCS.

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2 hours ago, =475FG= Dawger said:

And the phenomena of "ice crystal icing" is something I never heard of or encountered flying at altitudes up to 51,000 feet all over the world. Every cloud above the freezing level is in ice crystal form and is completely harmless to jet engines. Even flying through the heaviest snow has no effect.

It started being studied relatively recently, so if you weren't keeping up with the literature lately, you might've missed it.
https://www.boeing.com/commercial/aeromagazine/articles/qtr_4_07/article_03_2.html
http://www.flightsafety.org/asw/jun08/asw_jun08_p12-16.pdf

Incidents involving that (rarely accidents, it happens high enough that the pilots have a lot of room to recover) are prone to misattribution and in many cases left no obvious damage to the engine, despite rather distressing symptoms up high. That said, the engines did quit in enough cases for the FAA to take it seriously. A flameout is bad enough on its own, when it happens while dodging SAMs it's a lot worse. Most of the study is focused on high bypass turbofans, so I'm not sure how well would fighter engines deal with such conditions, but I think they would be affected (if nothing else, the A-10 uses high bypass engines).

And yes, helos do operate in visible moisture. Apache in particular is perfectly capable of fighting in the weather, and while Russian helos have problems in low visibility, a bit of rain or fog doesn't ground them.

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5 minutes ago, Dragon1-1 said:

It started being studied relatively recently, so if you weren't keeping up with the literature lately, you might've missed it.
https://www.boeing.com/commercial/aeromagazine/articles/qtr_4_07/article_03_2.html
http://www.flightsafety.org/asw/jun08/asw_jun08_p12-16.pdf

Incidents involving that (rarely accidents, it happens high enough that the pilots have a lot of room to recover) are prone to misattribution and in many cases left no obvious damage to the engine, despite rather distressing symptoms up high. That said, the engines did quit in enough cases for the FAA to take it seriously. A flameout is bad enough on its own, when it happens while dodging SAMs it's a lot worse. Most of the study is focused on high bypass turbofans, so I'm not sure how well would fighter engines deal with such conditions, but I think they would be affected (if nothing else, the A-10 uses high bypass engines).

And yes, helos do operate in visible moisture. Apache in particular is perfectly capable of fighting in the weather, and while Russian helos have problems in low visibility, a bit of rain or fog doesn't ground them.

The icing you are referring to happens when flying in visible moisture associated with convective activity (Thunderstorms).

We just called it "engine icing". Whether the engine ice started via SLD or as crystals melting in the Venturi effect isn't of particular interest to the pilot. Don't fly in a thunderstorm at any altitude and if you get in one by accident, get out as quick as possible.

The bottom line, as with all icing, is you avoid flying in the conditions conducive to formation of ice in the engine or on the airframe as much as possible. In jets, you climb or descend out of it or go around convective activity.

You don't park yourself in the ice or even in conditions where ice is possible and hope the aircraft systems can keep up.

You get out of the conditions as quickly as possible. Nearly all of the ice induced accidents are pilot induced, usually bad decision making with regard to continuing to operate in conditions conducive to icing.

Which is why I say it really isn't worth the effort to model all of this stuff. The ice protection equipment is there to increase the time you have available to escape the ice, not the let you fly around in it.

Also, I didn't say helos don't operate in visible moisture but they are not going to continuously operate in icing conditions.

It is far too dangerous.

 

 

 

 

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Yeah, this is Digital Combat Simulation, not civilian flight simulation or real world civilian flight where "safety" comes first and is absolute.

Not sure putting the war on hold is an option for bad weather, in fact, bad weather is a benefit to the side that lacks air superiority.

Diving through temperature layers for a strafing run to help out the boots on the ground is a thing in war.... it saves lives!

As a chopper simmer, I would love icing in combat..... but for sure the DCS Engine and Vulkan must come first.


Edited by Rogue Trooper
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Exactly. If it's raining freezing cats and dogs over the target area, then an Apache wanting to hit it would have to come up with a way of operating there safely for at least as long as it takes to execute an attack. This is the main point of modeling the icing, since without it modeled, it'd just fly around in there while only suffering limitations to visibility. There's no other reason for an attack helo to avoid icing conditions. It's similar with thunderstorms, sometimes, "give it a wide berth" is not an option when your guys on the ground are underneath, getting hammered by enemy tanks. Or if you have an unenviable choice of going into a cumulonimbus or into a SA-10 WEZ. 

Combat flight sims aren't just limited to situations where things are going right, they should also faithfully replicate situations where things are going wrong, be it from pilot error, enemy action or equipment failure. Flying fighters is a risky job, if you want safety, you sign up with the airlines or buy a Cessna, like every sane pilot does. 🙂 The nutters go on to fly high-speed airplanes loaded up with high explosives inside and under the wings, into airspaces where the local authorities made it clear they don't want them, do things that piss said authorities even more (like dropping those explosives and their people and property), and the craziest ones go back after all this and land their supersonic jet on a wobbly, unstable excuse for a runway about 150m long with four wires strung across it. "Safe flying" is a relative term in fighters. 🙂 Ejection seats probably help, but guys were doing all that (minus the supersonic part, but with vision-obstructing, roll-inducing props) before these were invented.


Edited by Dragon1-1
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It would also be critical for the DCS online dynamic campaign... winter is coming and the war needs to be finished soon!

It would cause "oversite DCS Sim Generals" to make rash decisions.

When I used to do target shooting, we started to recognise the "fair weather" shooters as they were never with us in the mud and rain..... firing at a target, 1 kilometre down range. 

The fella that inverts his A-10 and dives through a freezing thunder cloud to help the guys on the ground is a hero.

Chopper Pilots are just heroes regardless.


Edited by Rogue Trooper
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HP G2 Reverb, Windows 10 VR settings: IPD is 64.5mm, High image quality, G2 reset to 60Hz refresh rate as standard. OpenXR user, Open XR tool kit disabled. Open XR was a massive upgrade for me.

DCS: Pixel Density 1.0, Forced IPD at 55 (perceived world size), 0 X MSAA, 0 X SSAA. My real IPD is 64.5mm. Prescription VROptition lenses installed. VR Driver system: I9-9900KS 5Ghz CPU. XI Hero motherboard and RTX 3090 graphics card, 64 gigs Ram, No OC at the mo. MT user  (2 - 5 fps gain). DCS run at 60Hz.

Vaicom user. Thrustmaster warthog user. MFG pedals with damper upgrade.... and what an upgrade! Total controls Apache MPDs set to virtual Reality height with brail enhancements to ensure 100% button activation in VR.. Simshaker Jet Pro vibration seat.. Uses data from DCS not sound.... you know when you are dropping into VRS with this bad boy.

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the flight manuals for pretty much all (if not all) of the aircraft that are used in dcs or would be used in dcs, say the same thing about flying into known icing... "DON'T". It would also be impossible to model icing, because there is no flight data for icing effects because the aircraft do not operate in icing conditions.

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  • 4 weeks later...
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Of course not a priority or need for super realistic complex simulation of the effects but these are needed anyway. It's part of aviation and contrary to RL pilots in DCS can and do take crazy and risky actions, even if just to see "what if", because they can and because it's a simulator. After seeing a few failures they surely will start to avoid. Not feasible? Look, at least 2 aircraft in DCS already have it!

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  • 4 months later...

 

On 2/2/2022 at 1:39 PM, =475FG= Dawger said:

In my rather extensive experience flying in real world icing conditions, airframe icing is of concern only at low altitudes and icing layers are generally in narrow altitude bands. 
 

While these narrow bands can be a major headache for low performance piston engine aircraft, they are usually pretty much only a minor annoyance in a jet. 
 

You turn on the anti-ice during climb for a few minutes and again for a few minutes during descent. And this is only in very particular types of weather. 
 

It would be a major coding effort to build properly modeled airframe ice inducing weather for very little effect on gameplay.

 

Sure, maybe the aiframe icing might not be as much of a threat to jet aircraft as it is to prop planes. But those jet aircraft are no less prone to pitot or static port icing, which would cause anyone a headache. Also don't forget that DCS does have a lot of propeller aircraft in it that would be much more threatened by these icing conditions.

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20 minutes ago, Dragon1-1 said:

I actually ran into pitot icing in the A-10. Fortunately, I was able to recognize it and turned on pitot heat, which I forgot to do on the ground. So at least one module models it.

Haven't really testet them all, but the C-101 has it and the MB-339 will too. 😊 

EDIT: I assume the Jeff too. 


Edited by MAXsenna
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  • 8 months later...

I have heard of a plane that had flown at a high altitude and then on the ground started to form ice on the wings on a very hot day...the fuel tanks still loaded with very cold fuel had chilled the wings.

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  • 1 month later...

+1 for icing.

It is a massive factor in real life that must be respected, and it would be great to see in DCS.

Especially icing of sensors like pitot tubes and static ports would be a great addition.

Both for flying and mission planning, it would add a new element where you have to apply decision-making.

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On 8/11/2022 at 5:50 PM, Dragon1-1 said:

I actually ran into pitot icing in the A-10. Fortunately, I was able to recognize it and turned on pitot heat, which I forgot to do on the ground. So at least one module models it.

The viper also has pitot heat.

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