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Slip indicator broken in forward flight. Long standing issue. Proof Included.


Tim_Fragmagnet

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19 hours ago, sLYFa said:

Claiming something to match or not match "the real" thing based on a few short videos where we don't know which fuel/payload and specific Huey model is flown is not enough I'm afraid. Are there any balancing curves (i.e. what control inputs are needed for level flight at xx KIAS and yy GW) for the Huey? Russian chopper manuals are full of them so maybe there are some for the Huey too.

On 1/13/2022 at 3:41 PM, Tim_Fragmagnet said:

The actual issue is that the slip indicator does not properly operate alongside this. As the need for right pedal increases, the leftward motion of the slip indicator increases, almost as if its effects are completely inverted.

So you are basically saying that translating tendency is reversed as in more right pedal requires more bank? Maybe look for the bank angle in stationary, no crab flight at various speeds to confirm that.

On the contrary,  YOU have not researched enough before making claims . Look here for inputs by real pilots (even by Eagle Dynamics  person who had a go), and control input diagrams (pbishop post page 2) before rushing to engage  in "full dcs defend mode"  even by questioning multiple videos. 

 

Its Crystal clear ZERO Sideslip Right pedal need. Crabbing has nothing to do with it.

 

image.thumb.png.c75c12600a16d187406e6e4e6b7f353a.png

image.thumb.png.2072bf05a3aeb1618a089a242c40766a.png

image.thumb.png.2072bf05a3aeb1618a089a242c40766a.png


Edited by fapador
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Obsessed with FM's

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And the best video showcasing this is here : The Capetown fully restored Huey, in as close as possible Vietnam configuration. You can see the the ball fully centered and the  pedals right offset in perfect level flight. Crabbing is not noticable at least not in dcs extend..

 

Untitled.png


Edited by fapador
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In the Huey the ball is broken. This is old.

It makes me chuckle when folks around here try to justify the behaviour of the ball as something that might be correct by pulling out “scientific” explanations or asking about fuel or payload or specific models.

And it makes me sad to read that Flappie want’s some video proofs. This was addressed long ago. There is no need of a proof anyway.

Fly the Huey without any wind, comply with the ball, and see how prominent it crabs.
No helicopter on earth in coordinated flight goes into such a pronounced crab flight when in a simple ordinary standard run-of-the-mill cookie-cutter level flight without any other external influence.

The only answer from ED I would accept in this particular case is: Devs have no time at the moment to look after legacy moduls. Everything else I consider as a diversionary tactic to keep the community busy gathering proofs or hoping they will jump to another topic after they have discussed themselves to death.

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2 hours ago, fapador said:

On the contrary,  YOU have not researched enough before making claims . Look here for inputs by real pilots (even by Eagle Dynamics  person who had a go), and control input diagrams (pbishop post page 2) before rushing to engage  in "full dcs defend mode"  even by questioning multiple videos. Its Crystal clear ZERO Sideslip Right pedal need. Crabbing has nothing to do with it.

 

You redditesque salt-mine attitude is not appreciated. I never claimed there is nothing wrong with the Huey, just that the inital screenshot OP provided is a text-book example of what the slip ball shows if you want zero crab in forward flight (i.e hanging left to counter translating tendency but thats apparently too much to grasp somehow). The assumption that slip ball and actual aerodynamic slip have to correlate is wrong. You could be flying sideways with a centered ball. The Huey is not a glider, its not as simple as pedal left-> ball right and vice versa.

That itself has nothing to do with the correct amount of right pedal needed for level flight. All these video "proofs" are vague at best. What gross weight are they flying at (affects the amount of collective and pedal need)?, what Huey variant is flown (there are lots of them)? Not to mention the quality. There are just too many unknowns and ED or any serious dev isn't gonna take that as an argument. Actual control curves from the manual are actual evidence OTOH and if you read the post you quoted thats what I asked for. Lets hope they at least acknowledge that issue.

But again this has nothing to do with the slip indicator. Its literally just a ball in a curve. It doesn't care about crab, pedals or anything other then lateral force, which is a result of various forces/control inputs. If you want to showcase actual issues with ball, put the helicopter in situation where you know what the ball has to show. E.g. level flight with zero bank and zero roll/yaw/pitch rates, the ball HAS to be centered in that case. If it doesn't there's a bug. If it does, try more/less crab but keep the bank at zero and make sure you are not turning, the ball still needs to be centered. The amount of pedal required for this doesn't matter for the ball (it does for the FM though of course), no need to overcomplicate things.

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So not only are you flat out denying multiple cases of unique recorded evidence, you have refused to provide evidence of your own, and you're also conveniently forgetting to include the forward aspect of how a slip indicator works.


You keep repeating "lateral forces", while conveniently ignoring (or are unaware of) the external forces at play as well.
Yes, left pedal counters torque, thus stops the aircraft from yawing right
Yes, this causes a rightward motion in the airframe,
But what happens as we go forward?

As we go forward, crabbing to the right, what happens?
First, we gain translational lift, but more importantly, so does the anti torque rotor.
Thus causing the aircraft to yaw to the left, thus causing the ball to go to the right.
Thus requiring less left pedal to counter the torque.
So we use less left pedal, IE more right pedal.


Second, air pushes on the airframe
Only one side of it, in this case, the right side
This changes our flight vector
To the left.
Our aircraft is accelerating to the left of our established flight vector,
It doesn't stabilize, it stays as an acceleration, because that acceleration is required for that flight vector to stay in that "pushed to the left" postion.
We're still trying to push our helicopter along our established flight vector,
To the ball, inside that glass tube filled with kerosine, ever so protected from the external forces trying to act upon it,
To the ball it feels as if the entire aircraft is being forced to the left out from under it
So the ball goes right.

So we apply even more right pedal, until that lateral acceleration is no longer present, or is at least minimized.

Centering the ball doesn't zero out crabbing
Centering the ball zeroes out the forces acting upon the airframe, thus allowing the ball to rest in the center.

And since we have applied right pedal, and have thus reduced the strength of the translating tendency
any crabbing that remains can be easily countered with a small amount of left cyclic.

Resulting in stable forward flight with the ball centered and the pedals to the right.

 

The ball is along for the same ride the helicopter is, but it does not feel the external aerodynamic forces acting upon it.

We aren't outrunning the ball, it's not "falling to the left of the slip indicator" because it "can't keep up"

The ball goes to the right because it's trying to go in a different direction than the helicopter.

To the ball, the helicopter is going to the left.

That is why the ball goes right when you yaw left in a plane in wings level flight.

That is why the ball goes right when you are crabbing to the right in a level helicopter.

 

The DCS UH-1H module's slip indicator does not function properly.

Please.


Edited by Tim_Fragmagnet
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EDIT: This specific guess is incorrect, the text will remain unchanged



Ladies and gentlemen

I would like to present you with a possible origin of this inaccuracy in the huey module.

Look at the tail rotor.

 

 

right.jpg

Notice anything off about it?

Look again.

 

left.jpg

Hueys built for civilian use have their tail rotor on the right side. Even some modern military ones do.

Those simply converted to civilian use do not.

Why is this relevant?

Page 319 of "Principles of Helicopter Aerodynamics" by J. Gordon Leishman

 

rotor.png

Tail rotors in a tractor configuration, such as those on civilian hueys, provide less anti torque thrust, and this data is LITERALLY for UH-1C and UH-1D. It is directly relevant to us.


What does this mean?

This means that in civilian hueys, with the tailrotor on the right side of the tail, in the tractor configuration, you must apply more left pedal to get the same result.

 

If the SMEs for this module flew civilian hueys, that's likely why the slip indicator asks for pedals to the left despite the correct direction being to the right.

Because to apply the same amount of anti torque as a military huey while in a civilian huey, you need to add more left pedal.


How much more left pedal?

"Main Rotor–Tail Rotor Interaction and Its Implications for Helicopter Directional Control" gives us a look at what our answer could look like.

NOTE: This paper talks about the direction in which the tail rotor spins, not its placement upon the tail, however if these results arise from just changing the way it spins, imagine what happens when you move the whole thing and change its performance.

image.png

 

Up to 20% of the entire available range

 

Sound familiar?

range.png

 

 

It does to me.

 

The anti torque thrust provided at specific pedal positions seems to be correct, but the pedal positions the slip indicator is asking for are not.
No matter what the origin of the inaccuracy is, the fact still stands, the slip indicator does not function properly.


Edited by Tim_Fragmagnet
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On 1/27/2022 at 9:27 AM, Tim_Fragmagnet said:

Ladies and gentlemen

I would like to present you with a possible origin of this inaccuracy in the huey module.

Look at the tail rotor.

 

 

right.jpg

Notice anything off about it?

Look again.

 

left.jpg

Hueys built for civilian use have their tail rotor on the right side. Even some modern military ones do.

Those simply converted to civilian use do not.

Why is this relevant?

Page 319 of "Principles of Helicopter Aerodynamics" by J. Gordon Leishman

 

rotor.png

Tail rotors in a tractor configuration, such as those on civilian hueys, provide less anti torque thrust, and this data is LITERALLY for UH-1C and UH-1D. It is directly relevant to us.


What does this mean?

This means that in civilian hueys, with the tailrotor on the right side of the tail, in the tractor configuration, you must apply more left pedal to get the same result.

 

If the SMEs for this module flew civilian hueys, that's likely why the slip indicator asks for pedals to the left despite the correct direction being to the right.

Because to apply the same amount of anti torque as a military huey while in a civilian huey, you need to add more left pedal.


How much more left pedal?

"Main Rotor–Tail Rotor Interaction and Its Implications for Helicopter Directional Control" gives us a look at what our answer could look like.

NOTE: This paper talks about the direction in which the tail rotor spins, not its placement upon the tail, however if these results arise from just changing the way it spins, imagine what happens when you move the whole thing and change its performance.

image.png

 

Up to 20% of the entire available range

 

Sound familiar?

range.png

 

 

It does to me.

 

The anti torque thrust provided at specific pedal positions seems to be correct, but the pedal positions the slip indicator is asking for are not.
No matter what the origin of the inaccuracy is, the fact still stands, the slip indicator does not function properly.

 

 

that got me curious and I decided to search Bell 205 video. 

 

 

and holy smokes I think it use left rudder to keep the ball center so it does seems that ED had a Bell 205 SME instead of UH-1

 

 

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  • 2 months later...

I want to jump in on this by asking you all to check how the huey performs in the hover (IGE) in extremely high winds.  

Last week on GAW Hoggit server, the winds were in excess of 18-30m/s allegedly using IRL data from that region.   
That's over 35-59kt winds.  

The TR behaved incredibly strange, needing almost full right pedal to keep the nose stable when IGE hover.  
I have never ever experienced a helicopter requiring so much non-power pedal, not even in autorotation where torque demands are virtually zero.  
I'd never have noticed this or thought to test that way without those winds being present.  
The aircraft should have behaved as though it was in flight, with almost balanced pedal input.

I recommend all who are interested in this bug try a flight with extremely high winds.  
Also look at the ball during those conditions, when I was flying the ball was insisting I use left pedal while keeping straight flight in that wind required constant right pedal.  

The ball seems to have been programmed to some other constants (forward speed, cyclic position)  and not dependant on actual torque demands, pedal input and aircraft orientation.  
 

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It's also worth noting, that the trim problem affects other helicopters.  

Have a look at this following screenshots from Wag's video introducing flight in the Apache.  

The first shot shows the slip ball off to the left (same rotor system as huey) and the Flight Path Vector indiscator is centered.  
The second shows him in an "aerodynamically trimmed state" (his term) with the ball centered, but the FPV showing his heading off to the right.  
When in this state it is very obvious in the video, that he is crabbing right.  

 

It's not just the huey.

 

trim.jpg

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If you watch that video that Wags presented, after he has "trimmed" the slip ball you can actually see via the heading tape that he is actually in a sloppy turn. The tape moves about 1 degree per second.  This indicates that he is providing more yaw pedal than needed to maintain zero slip, yet the ball says otherwise.
You can try it for yourself and see.    

At recommended cruise speeds, any vertical stab on a helo will be designed to hold a straight track.  The rotor is tilted to provide a natural bank to counter these in flight forces in a helicopter.  

Unless there is a crosswind present (easy to set in DCS), a slip ball should indicate straight and level flight at cruise speed, without crabbing.

Yes, near VNE you should need more power pedal and a slight bank to retain that course.

 

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I understand the difference.  Your claim that it is due to the vertical stab is wrong, plain and simple.  
In aerodynamic trim at cruise speeds, the heading should be centered.

The stab is designed to permit close to neutral pedal position at cruise speeds. This is true for all modern helicopters.  
The tilted gearbox and MR in modern designs are also implemented to counteract drift.  

In a no wind, scenario, with low to little loading there should be no crabbing of note. None at all.  
As you can see from the images that the crabbing is quite drastic.  

Get in the cockpit, fly over a very visible landmark like a road or powerline and observe which position the ball is in when you are on a true follow heading to the landmark, and nose to tail with it.

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Admiki

It's only a matter of time until you realize that to be in aerodynamic trim on the slip indicator means to have all lateral forces equalized, and by doing so, means that you will line up the nose of your aircraft with the flow of air. Will it be a perfect 1:1 heading with your ground track? No, almost never, but it will be relatively close if there isn't any wind.

If you're crabbing due to translating tendency, air is slamming into the side of your helicopter causing a lateral acceleration in the opposite direction of the flow of air, meaning the ball wants to go into the flow of air. As you pedal into the flow of air, it reduces both, the force of translating tendency, and the volume of air pushing on the side of the helicopter, until eventually the forces reach equilibrium. With the nose of the helicopter pointed nearly directly into the flow of air.

It's also a matter of time until you understand that the body of the helicopter does not need to be rolled at all for the rotor to be tilted to the side to counteract translating tendency.
The body of the helicopter merely hangs from the rotor, nothing more. You are not controlling where the body of the helicopter goes, you are controlling where the rotor wants to go, the body simply follows it, the body of the helicopter rolls because the rotor itself is trying to move/roll in that direction. This means that in straight level flight the center of mass of the helicopter will want hang straight under the rotor or slightly behind it. To a point, it doesn't matter how far to the side the rotor is tilted, if the rotor is still going perfectly straight, there is no lateral acceleration on the body of the helicopter, therefore the body of the helicopter hangs freely. The reason the huey is known for hovering with a (very small) amount of left roll is, yes, due to translating tendency, but in forward flight, that left skid low tendency is basically completely nullified by the forces of flight.

 

If you still deny this, then I demand you show us with screenshots of you doing it in DCS. Prove to us that you even own the module.

 

 

I'm going to clear this up once again, no, a centered slip indicator is not meant line you up exactly with your ground track. Helicopters with tail rotors do have some sideslip, even when properly trimmed, it's just the nature of the beast, but it's generally not much, and DEFINITELY not as much as the DCS huey.

 

The problem with the DCS Huey's slip indicator is that it asks for the pedals to the left, instead of pedals to the right, and that when centered, you are crabbing by such an unrealistic amount that it's actually visibly detrimental to the flight performance of the aircraft in game.

 

 

I'm not sure about the apache, but the huey's slip indicator is so broken it's not even funny anymore.


Edited by Tim_Fragmagnet
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10 hours ago, Tim_Fragmagnet said:

The problem with the DCS Huey's slip indicator is that it asks for the pedals to the left, instead of pedals to the right, and that when centered, you are crabbing by such an unrealistic amount that it's actually visibly detrimental to the flight performance of the aircraft in game.

I'm not sure about the apache, but the huey's slip indicator is so broken it's not even funny anymore.

 

I'm not an engineer in flight dynamics, but I think I sort of understand the discussion.
Even so, it is my impression that going down a runway it "feels" like I have to pedal right to get it straight, even though the ball says left. This messes with my head. Especially in the Huey.
That's what the discussion is about, right?

Cheers!

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15 hours ago, Tim_Fragmagnet said:

Admiki

It's only a matter of time until you realize that to be in aerodynamic trim on the slip indicator means to have all lateral forces equalized, and by doing so, means that you will line up the nose of your aircraft with the flow of air. Will it be a perfect 1:1 heading with your ground track? No, almost never, but it will be relatively close if there isn't any wind.

Where did I say that trim does not mean that forces are equalized? I just pointed falacy that being in trim MUST mean true tracking.

I don't own only KA-50 and Gazelle, but no, you are not important enough for me to to bother proving that to you 

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The first couple weeks flying the Huey in VR I legit ended up with stiff/sore back cuz of this, kept trying to fly it per the indicator but you end up at a very odd flying angle.

It would be nice to see it fixed if only for us obsessives who have to keep noticing the gauge is very wrong.

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5 hours ago, Rifter said:

Seems to be fixed now - did some test flights and the flight ball behaviour was as expected.

I'm not sure what gives you that impression, in no way is it working even remotely as it should.
I recommend you go over the information in the thread again.


Edited by Tim_Fragmagnet
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Since I had no doubt in the past about the flight ball in the Huey being off, why should I read the thread again? Discussions about complying with the flight ball leading to an exaggerated crab flight date back to 2019 and I was one of those who asked for a fix.

I just did a quick test yesterday and found, that suddenly the Huey in contrast to the last three years was no longer in crab flight when complying with the flight ball. It felt like pre 2019. I needed some left pedal for a nose-to-tail trim and the flight ball was in centre. I’m referring to open Beta 2.7.11.22211.

Pedal action might still be off compared to the real thing but that is part of the flight model. Crabbing with the flight ball centered is not happening any more on my side. And I have to emphasize that I was not under the influence of alcohol when I made the quick test. 🙂


Edited by Rifter
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15 hours ago, Rifter said:

I just did a quick test yesterday and found, that suddenly the Huey in contrast to the last three years was no longer in crab flight when complying with the flight ball. It felt like pre 2019.

Complying with the slip indicator has lead to exaggerated crabbing since 2016 and possibly earlier, and still does.

The slip indicator being centered with the pedals to the left is literally the issue reported with this thread. It's something wrong with the module that should be corrected.


Edited by Tim_Fragmagnet
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Ok - false alarm on my side. In my first quick test I only hit around 80 knots.
Did another test (see track) were I accelerated to over 100 knots.
Flight is only over runway so there is a good reference from outside top view.
Crabs like hell when complying to the ball, calming down at around 80 knots.
Nothing changed - ignore my preceding comments and sorry for the confusion.

 

uh-1_crab.trk


Edited by Rifter
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  • 3 weeks later...

I wonder if this is linked to the reason why the Huey also drifts to the right when the AI / Co Pilot is flying it over time?

As for the ball - it's my understanding that the ball indicates the experience that the pilots and passengers will be feeling with lateral movement. If the ball is to the right, it's like being in a car that is turning left, and your body wants to move to the right, and vise versa. Or alternatively if the ball is to the right, it could be like being in a car that's gong straight ahead, but on a hill that is higher to the left than the right so the car is on an angle. In either case - the TC ball reflects the forces/feeling that the passengers will be feeling. 

While I'm only a fixed wing pilot IRL - it would seem very strange and uncomfortable to me that people in helicopters experience this feeling of a constant lean to one side while in a straight forward and level flight.

However I have also been told that helicopters don't fly level - but will normally have one skid slightly down due to the difference of lift from left to right - coz helicopters are so unco 😉 , so maybe that could be a contribution - but after seeing the 5 examples posted here of hueys all in a straight flight with a balanced TC - I figure that I must be wrong there. 

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  • 4 weeks later...
  • Tim_Fragmagnet changed the title to Slip indicator broken at speeds higher than about 40knots. Long standing issue.

So I have gone on quite the journey of research and information gathering. I have spoken with some very interesting people and looked through some interesting documents, and they all point to the same thing, the slip indicator is modeled wrong in DCS.

It also uncovered some other very serious concerns about the module as a whole, things like the de-ice reducing available power by almost 3x as much as it's supposed to, the overall performance of the aircraft being too high in most situations, and the fact that a large portion of the huey files are named AB212 after the italian twin engined UH-1N, but I won't go into detail on those here as that is not what this bug report is about.

I'm here to provide undeniable proof that the huey cruises with the pedals to the right. @fapador had provided charts of the control positions for hueys in forward flight, however those charts were of a huey with experimental equipment installed. Now, while that huey with the experimental infrared equipment is stated to have "essentially unchanged handling" in its document, I wasn't happy with just that, I wanted it to be unquestionable. So I located that document, and others like it. It turns out that the flight engineers had the foresight to run the data twice, once with their experiment installed, and once with the huey in a clean configuration. I have compiled the most relevant charts of this data.
Not only are the proceeding sets of data gathered from clean hueys, but they are from 2 separate hueys.

Minus the variance from differences in the test variables and the aircraft themselves such as physical control limit differences, weight, density altitude, center of  gravity, etc, this is 2 separate hueys, showing the same data, their serial numbers are provided.

The first set of data is much like what fapador posted, the positions of the controls while in trimmed level forward flight.

nullimage.png

Controlpositionstrimmed2.png

To simplify this, "directional control" is the anti-torque control, and it has about 6.8 inches of total travel, it is measured as "inches from full left" meaning if the datapoints are at 3.4 inches, the pedals are centered, if they are above 3.4 inches, they are to the right. Calibrated airspeed is at the bottom of the charts. The only datapoint below centered pedals is the 112knot datapoint for the second chart. IE, data gathered from a huey at a weight of 8980lbs. The heavier the aircraft, the more torque is required, and thus the more left pedal is required. The pedals only go to the left at a very high weight and at high speed with the collective raised by nearly 7 inches.

You'll notice that before that, the pedals are nearly at least 1 inch to the right of center, in the case of the first chart, even more than that.

Lets complicate things.

CollectiveFixed stability1.png

CollectiveFixed stability2.png

These charts depict data gathered from hueys in flight with the collective remaining in the same position across the entire set of data.

I see data showing hueys flying at 90-110 knots with pedals that are 3.6-4 inches from full left, ie 0.2-0.6 inches to the right, at a weight of 8960-9306lbs.
Now I just got done saying that the pedals were to the left because of the huey being at a high weight load. Why is this one saying they are to the right at an even higher weight.

That is because these hueys are flying without the increase in torque from a high collective setting. So yes, again, more collective DOES MEAN the pedals should be more to the left. However at the same time, it very clearly shows that the huey flies with pedals to the right in most situations.

Now how about a change of pace.

Lateral Stability.png

This is a chart depicting how the aircraft performs in a sideslip.

One huey, 2 situations, the square datapoints are at 66knots, the circular data points are at 97 knots. The Shaded datapoints are there to represent a trimmed state. IE the slip indicator is centered.

I'm seeing pedals to the right in a trimmed state. Not only that, I'm seeing a trimmed state with a slip angle of about -0.5 degrees. not even remotely close to what the DCS huey flies with in trim.

The huey flies mostly straight with the slip indicator centered. Yes, there are situations where the slip indicator will be centered but you will be crabbing, but not in normal flight.

If you're thinking "oh they just mean trim as in not crabbing, not with the slip indicator centered", I have proof of otherwise.

Here's the first proof

slip proof1.png

The trim state is very clearly not 0 degrees of slip. Not enough?

slip proof2.png

The trim state isn't even touching the zero degrees line. Somehow still not enough?

You want worded proof that they use the slip indicator ball as the trim reference?

slip proof3.png

 

Ballwidths from trim

 

It is undeniable, these documents use the slip indicator as the measurement of trim.

As a sidenote, that last one is far from a clean huey, it's just there to provide the worded proof of the slip indicator being used to trim, that huey actually has a massive radar dish on the right side, do not use that for flight performance reference.

Also, if you're questioning the source of all this data

source.png

source2.png

These are the 2 main sources but there are others for secondary knowledge.

 

 

 

 

So.

 

NOT ONLY, does the huey fly with the pedals to the right in most situations, but it also flies almost perfectly straight with no sideslip with the slip indicator centered.

 

So what's happening with the DCS huey?

At this point I believe I know.

As you gain speed, several things happen in relation to this

The tail rotor gains power
The tail fin starts generating its own anti torque due to its shape
The slipstream of air over the airframe wants to force the tail behind the body of the aircraft (also known as weathervaning). Like the fins on a dart or arrow keeping it flying straight.

If the pedals remained untouched, all 3 of these things combined would cause the nose to kick left, and the slip indicator to move to the right.
In game, the nose DOES kick left if you don't correct with the pedals, as far as I can tell, the flight model IS CORRECT. If you ignore the slip indicator and fly with the pedals to the right in dcs, you even get that left skid low attitude for straight level flight.
However the slip indicator does not move to the right. Why?

That is because the slip indicator is mostly tied to the collective, it is mostly tied to the amount of torque you are generating, this isn't wrong, this mostly works, but the flaw is that it is completely ignoring the aerodynamic effects of forward (or even rearward) flight.

These aerodynamic effects start immediately upon gaining speed, they don't wait until you reach cruise, they don't wait until you have entered translational lift.

The flight model seems to includes these, but the slip indicator does not take them into account.

In short, the slip indicator is incorrect at ANY forward speed.

 

It is now entirely unquestionable, the slip indicator does not work properly.

It has been almost a decade, I don't think it has ever worked.

Please, I think it's time.

 

Note: I have changed the title to more accurately reflect the nature of the issue which has in turn cleared the "investigating" prefix tag from the title, if someone could return it to its place I would appreciate it. @Flappie


Edited by Tim_Fragmagnet
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