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This is how you outrate any jet in a viper


karasawa

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Trick: DO NOT GO BELOW 10000 feet, and keep doing 2C fight. You can even outrate some OP mod aircraft like the Rafale. You don't even need to worry about those draggy wing pylons (better to remove them nevertheless).

'The reason of flying above 10000 feet is that you don't get blackout in those high speed turns (450 knots+). F-16 is the only jet in DCS that is able to sustain 14deg/sec at 15000feet, and 16.5deg/sec at 10000feet. Unlike turning on the deck, at higher altitudes you can try faster corner speed (450-500 knots)


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vor 22 Stunden schrieb darkman222:

Well let me put it that way. You can do it as shown. If you have the time, the fuel and if the bandit has no 9Xs or wingmen in the air.

 

9X and the whole fight geometry is gone, it's all about nose authority, helmet mounted sights and off boresight. It's a whole different game.
And one that I can do better than a guns only fight, have rarely survived one if it lasted for more than two minutes because you run out of fuel on your way to the tanker or homebase.

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...or just do it the other way round. Fly a nice airshow around the bandit and wait for the FUEL warning light to come on. The F16 turns into a performance monster then. Outrate almost anything, including the bandit, kill him, eject and walk back home.

Also I cant stress enough how different dogfights work against human opponents. I just realized that the Rafale was AI.


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On 1/13/2022 at 9:33 PM, SCPanda said:

Yep. I have outrated a Tomcat in a dogfight server yesterday by staying about 10k.

Everything out rates a Turkey.

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My specs:  W10 Pro, I5/11600K o/c to 4800 @1.32v, 64 GB 3200 XML RAM, ASUS RTX3060ti/8GB.

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On 1/16/2022 at 3:15 AM, darkman222 said:

or just do it the other way round. Fly a nice airshow around the bandit and wait for the FUEL warning light to come on. The F16 turns into a performance monster then. Outrate almost anything, including the bandit, kill him, eject and walk back home.

Not really... https://dcs.silver.ru/77-822,72-815,71-1701,IAS_kts,zoom,lbs,turnrate

Both JF-17 and F-18 can outrate the a low fuel F-16 at low altitude even if the Jeff and the Hornet have more than 10% fuel than the Viper. As the graph shows, F-16 has no rate advantage in all speed ranges. 

image.png

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23 hours ago, SCPanda said:

Not really... https://dcs.silver.ru/77-822,72-815,71-1701,IAS_kts,zoom,lbs,turnrate

Both JF-17 and F-18 can outrate the a low fuel F-16 at low altitude even if the Jeff and the Hornet have more than 10% fuel than the Viper. As the graph shows, F-16 has no rate advantage in all speed ranges. 

image.png

This is why I suggest fighting above 10K to gain advantage over other jets

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On 1/18/2022 at 4:36 AM, karasawa said:

This is why I suggest fighting above 10K to gain advantage over other jets

I've really taken your advice to heart but I find that against the 15, 18 and JF17 we go neutral and the fuel becomes an issue. Or they cut through the circle with nose on and strafe me down.

Currently the advantage against the Hornet in particular seems to be more of a academic/theoretical one. In practice, against an equal level opponent I find it negligible.

I fair reasonably well on the dogfight servers often in the top 10%. Yet the Hornet still is able to outrate as well as climb toe to toe with the Viper.

Karasawa, would love to see an example of you fighting a human neer peer Hornet driver!


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On 1/18/2022 at 7:06 PM, mobua said:

I've really taken your advice to heart but I find that against the 15, 18 and JF17 we go neutral and the fuel becomes an issue. Or they cut through the circle with nose on and strafe me down.

Currently the advantage against the Hornet in particular seems to be more of a academic/theoretical one.

In practice against an equal level opponent I find it negligible.

I fair reasonably well on the dogfight servers often in the top 10%. Yet the Hornet still is able to outrage aswell as climb toe to tow with the Viper.

Karasawa, would love to see an example of you fighting a human neer peer Hornet driver!

Yeah, I have noticed the same fighting against a Su-27 yesterday. He could just stay inside my turn circle. 

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4 hours ago, SCPanda said:

Yeah, I have noticed the same fighting against a Su-27 yesterday. He could just stay inside my turn circle. 

That is normal when fighting good opponents. I faced the same against good M2K pilots. They just reset the fight inside your circle indefinitely and laugh at you while you run out of fuel trying to outrate them at 450 kts.

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Tried that on my own in a Su-27 and... Well. I could point my nose at the F-16 most of the time and it never left a cone 20 degrees off my nose once I was settled. 

He managed to keep a distance too large for a good gun solution and ran out of fuel.

There is no way to win such a fight other than heaters.

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On 1/18/2022 at 6:06 AM, mobua said:

I've really taken your advice to heart but I find that against the 15, 18 and JF17 we go neutral and the fuel becomes an issue. Or they cut through the circle with nose on and strafe me down.

Currently the advantage against the Hornet in particular seems to be more of a academic/theoretical one. In practice, against an equal level opponent I find it negligible.

I fair reasonably well on the dogfight servers often in the top 10%. Yet the Hornet still is able to outrate as well as climb toe to toe with the Viper.

Karasawa, would love to see an example of you fighting a human neer peer Hornet driver!

 

 

16 hours ago, SCPanda said:

Yeah, I have noticed the same fighting against a Su-27 yesterday. He could just stay inside my turn circle. 

 

12 hours ago, TAW_Blaze said:

That is normal when fighting good opponents. I faced the same against good M2K pilots. They just reset the fight inside your circle indefinitely and laugh at you while you run out of fuel trying to outrate them at 450 kts.

I see a pattern here.

step 1)  F-16 outrates jet A.

step 2) Jet A reverses the turn to reset the fight.

This thread aims to accomplish step 1. Step 2 is out of the scope of this thread. Maybe someone will open another thread about step 2 in the future.  

Technically, step 2 won't kick in as long as F-16 driver has good gunnery.


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8 hours ago, karasawa said:

I see a pattern here.

step 1)  F-16 outrates jet A.

step 2) Jet A reverses the turn to reset the fight.

This thread aims to accomplish step 1. Step 2 is out of the scope of this thread. Maybe someone will open another thread about step 2 in the future.  

Technically, step 2 won't kick in as long as F-16 driver has good gunnery.

Nope I think you misunderstood us. Jet A never reverses the turn, he just stay inside our turn circle while we TRY to outrate him. In other words, Jet A just stays behind our 3-9 line although he cannot kill us, we cannot outrate him and kill him either before our fuel runs out. Jet A is a piloted by human pilot. 

So, we cannot even accomplish step 1. 


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3 hours ago, SCPanda said:

Nope I think you misunderstood us. Jet A never reverses the turn, he just stay inside our turn circle while we TRY to outrate him. In other words, Jet A just stays behind our 3-9 line although he cannot kill us, we cannot outrate him and kill him either before our fuel runs out. Jet A is a piloted by human pilot. 

So, we cannot even accomplish step 1. 

 

Yep, and because the opponent will be flying at a lower speed odds are he will outlast you in the fuel game. Although it is often enough to  simply entangle you until you no longer have the option to play long games (if you ever had it to begin with).

I'm curious to see how things will change once we get better g onset, but at the moment merging a good M2K pilot in a Viper is a losing fight. The only scenario where you have a real shot is if he has a substantial energy deficit compared to his optimal envelope (i.e. he's starting at 300 knots and you arrived with 500), in this case you might be able to get a quick kill but otherwise in a somewhat equal transsonic merge if you try to rate him he'll just yank the stick and shoot you with a Magic. If it's only guns it's another story but to be honest I've never met a good M2K driver who didn't have something to shoot by the time we merged. These guys tend to have some absurd missile discipline out of necessity.

I know the thread is mostly about guns only, but I personally find it quite amusing to say "yeah, just stay above 10k". You pretty much never merge anything more than 5k ft from the ground. Going up from that point is strictly suicide unless the whole environment is pure guns.


Edited by TAW_Blaze
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4 hours ago, SCPanda said:

Nope I think you misunderstood us. Jet A never reverses the turn, he just stay inside our turn circle while we TRY to outrate him. In other words, Jet A just stays behind our 3-9 line although he cannot kill us, we cannot outrate him and kill him either before our fuel runs out. Jet A is a piloted by human pilot. 

So, we cannot even accomplish step 1. 

 

I second this.

1 hour ago, TAW_Blaze said:

Yep, and because the opponent will be flying at a lower speed odds are he will outlast you in the fuel game. Although it is often enough to  simply entangle you until you no longer have the option to play long games (if you ever had it to begin with).

I'm curious to see how things will change once we get better g onset, but at the moment merging a good M2K pilot in a Viper is a losing fight. The only scenario where you have a real shot is if he has a substantial energy deficit compared to his optimal envelope (i.e. he's starting at 300 knots and you arrived with 500), in this case you might be able to get a quick kill but otherwise in a somewhat equal transsonic merge if you try to rate him he'll just yank the stick and shoot you with a Magic. If it's only guns it's another story but to be honest I've never met a good M2K driver who didn't have something to shoot by the time we merged. These guys tend to have some absurd missile discipline out of necessity.

I know the thread is mostly about guns only, but I personally find it quite amusing to say "yeah, just stay above 10k". You pretty much never merge anything more than 5k ft from the ground. Going up from that point is strictly suicide unless the whole environment is pure guns.

 

When it comes to the mirage I find that generally if you can get them below 380 kts while you stay fast and above 420 you can kill them in the vertical. In particular what you want to do is a climbing helix turn and they will fall right off and you can prosecute them from there on. Alternativley (and even better!) would be if you can get them slow on the deck. This opens up the rate fight to the Vipers favour aswell as limiting the M2K in the vertical.

What surprises me alot in DCS is how certain jets, in particular the F/A-18C, is able to go toe to toe with the Viper in the vertical while maintaining a tighter turn. Take the climbing helix turn for instance. I would assume that a persuer on the inside of that turn given the same intial speed would burn off knots at a higher rate. This often seems not to be tha case where the Hornet in particular will climb on the inside while maintaing an equal distance (i.e. not falling off).

As things stand, and assuming the Hornet FM is correct, it is a hell of a beast and doing much more with less Gs. From a pilot perspective, why would you ever choose to suffer through 9G when 7.5G will get the job done?

I'm hoping the updated Viper FM will prove my statements to be foolish. 

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2 hours ago, mobua said:

When it comes to the mirage I find that generally if you can get them below 380 kts while you stay fast and above 420 you can kill them in the vertical. In particular what you want to do is a climbing helix turn and they will fall right off and you can prosecute them from there on. Alternativley (and even better!) would be if you can get them slow on the deck. This opens up the rate fight to the Vipers favour aswell as limiting the M2K in the vertical.

hi Mobua,

I don't have the same conclusion as you. I often play on PVP server against M2k, no way to struggle. sure I'm not a very good player, but m2k can sustain climbing helix turn, vertical, keeps always nose authority, and so on...anyway m2k is a monster :), even if you have average skill, you could almost shutdown anyone...

Aviate-navigate-communicate

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55 minutes ago, irq11 said:

hi Mobua,

I don't have the same conclusion as you. I often play on PVP server against M2k, no way to struggle. sure I'm not a very good player, but m2k can sustain climbing helix turn, vertical, keeps always nose authority, and so on...anyway m2k is a monster :), even if you have average skill, you could almost shutdown anyone...

Indeed the M2000C is a very potent foe!

However if you can force him slow while you stay fast, the tide turns in the Vipers favour and quite handsomely so.

How you go about doing this I leave to each his own. But I'm quite certain that if you succeed in executing said gameplay you ought to be coming out on top more times than not versus the Mirage.

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On 1/21/2022 at 11:49 AM, mobua said:

From a pilot perspective, why would you ever choose to suffer through 9G when 7.5G will get the job done?

Thats the design concept of the F18 vs the F16. You just pull 7.5G for the same turn rate in the F18 because you are way slower. Which of course means, that youre not as fast as the Viper, which is a disadvantage in other cases than dogfighting. For example BVR. But the slow game plays into the cards for the F18 in DCS. Also because the the F16 is a blackout machine at the moment.

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Well, I am not an experienced player. I tried to go to a PVP server but I cannot win a single dogfight no matter what jet I am driving. All I can do is test theoretical turn rate. Theoretically, A outrates B when A has a higher peak turn rate than B, right?

So here is what I have tried (all in 50% fuel and clean configuration, no pylons)

At 10000 feet:

Mig-29 and JF17 sustain at 15.5deg/sec, Hornet sustains at 16deg/sec, Viper sustains at 16.5deg/sec

At 15000 feet:

Mig-29 and JF17 sustains at 13.2deg/sec, Viper sustains at 14 deg/sec  

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On 1/23/2022 at 4:44 AM, karasawa said:

Well, I am not an experienced player. I tried to go to a PVP server but I cannot win a single dogfight no matter what jet I am driving. All I can do is test theoretical turn rate. Theoretically, A outrates B when A has a higher peak turn rate than B, right?

So here is what I have tried (all in 50% fuel and clean configuration, no pylons)

At 10000 feet:

Mig-29 and JF17 sustain at 15.5deg/sec, Hornet sustains at 16deg/sec, Viper sustains at 16.5deg/sec

At 15000 feet:

Mig-29 and JF17 sustains at 13.2deg/sec, Viper sustains at 14 deg/sec  

Since you seem to be quite interested in the topic I assume then you are motivated to improve yourself in it.. but to achieve that I'd recommend to find a partner who has more experience than you. Fighting random opponents of unknown skill level flying various airframes without a feedback loop is a very inefficient way of learning. Which is basically what you do in a multiplayer server. You need quite a bit of experience to be able to learn anything in an uncertain environment (i.e. a public server). Having a controlled environment is crucial.

One way to do it would be to go on the same servers and just observe people fighting. I would ask people to do some closed 1 on 1 sessions and maybe analyze the fight afterwards or just give some pointers. I think people are more open to help than you'd think. I guess this might be outside some people's comfort zone but it's worth the effort.

Fighting the AI and analyzing tactics against AI is ultimately just going to build bad habits (it has bad BFM decision making and uses different FM) and also make any claims made to performance or tactic questionable at best. Tactics tend to be not absolute, different things will work against different skill levels to a different extent. Something that works against your sparring partner might fail spectacularly against another opponent. So even against human opponents it is difficult to evaluate what is a good tactic and what isn't.


Edited by TAW_Blaze
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When it comes to the mirage I find that generally if you can get them below 380 kts while you stay fast and above 420 you can kill them in the vertical. In particular what you want to do is a climbing helix turn and they will fall right off and you can prosecute them from there on. Alternativley (and even better!) would be if you can get them slow on the deck. This opens up the rate fight to the Vipers favour aswell as limiting the M2K in the vertical.
What surprises me alot in DCS is how certain jets, in particular the F/A-18C, is able to go toe to toe with the Viper in the vertical while maintaining a tighter turn. Take the climbing helix turn for instance. I would assume that a persuer on the inside of that turn given the same intial speed would burn off knots at a higher rate. This often seems not to be tha case where the Hornet in particular will climb on the inside while maintaing an equal distance (i.e. not falling off).
As things stand, and assuming the Hornet FM is correct, it is a hell of a beast and doing much more with less Gs. From a pilot perspective, why would you ever choose to suffer through 9G when 7.5G will get the job done?
I'm hoping the updated Viper FM will prove my statements to be foolish. 
Yes, the Hornet does more with less G. This comes down to significant design differences in the aircraft. Such as having a larger wing. F-16 needs to be faster to provide the same amount of lift, and therefore needs to pull more Gs. There's some other things like the efficiency of the V-stabs and whatnot. Dual canted V-stabs would add a component of lift vs a the single vertical one.
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