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Will upgrading from a Ryzen 9 5900 to a i9-12900KF make much improvement for a Pimax 8KX system?


darkman222

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As the tile says. I am considering upgrading from a Ryzen 9 5900x (not overclocked) to a i9-12900KF (no overclocking intentions).

The problem is that my CPU frame times in Multiplayer are very high. Between 20 ms or 17 ms. Creating stutters even in 60 Hz mode for my Pimax 8KX, which is a big immersion breaker. This is how it looks in fpsVR.

grafik.png

So if I compare Passmark tests and benchmarks between the the 5900 and the new i9-12900KF I should expect an improvement of about 18 % which is a lot. See the passmark results for single core performance here:

grafik.png

But I also watched some in-game benchmarks users did on youtube. Nobody did a VR benchmark though. But it turns out the higher the output resolution in game, the less the difference between the processors cpu frame times. The Intel was only significantly faster in 1080 but not in 4k. Which is much closer to the Pimax resolution. Unfortunately nobody ran tests in DCS.

grafik.png

If you can compare that directly to VR it would not make sense to purchase the Intel processor. But if not, in my case for CPU frame time 18 % more performance would result in a frame time from 20ms to 16 ms. Which would be a good improvement.

Any predictions or ideas?

 

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I think the key word in your post is multiplayer...

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overclocking should be more of a priority then a new CPU, if you can do both that would be ideal.  DCS only uses 2 cores, so overclocking them, or only 2 of the /4/6 or 8 others and using CPU affinity, which to my understanding is a new feature in windows 11, would be ideal. The other aspect to look into is AMD FSR, shader mods , etc. check links below.

The best way to describe DCS is like trying to get an old Nokia phone to try and use 5G for data, it was written before all the new tech language existed, so it uses pure horsepower, albeit not very efficiently. All of us are hoping for AMD vulkan implementation to ease the suffering and start using some of this new tech to have a better experience. Until then mods and tweaks are you best bet, ive spent hours trying t fix my bugs, some of these guides and community support has helped.

 

https://vr4dcs.com/2019/08/08/process-lasso-simple-first-tune/

 

also tuning guide and mods

 

https://www.gamersbynight.com/dcs-settings-vr/

 

 

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Thanks guys. I did a lot of experimentation. Also I have to correct myself. Multiplayer is not a real issue here. And my current cooler should be okay, as AMD processors tend to be hotter than Intels.

Concerning MP. When the CPU time was very low on a MP server, I reconnected, did a quick flight and played it back as a track file, directly in VR again. And the bad CPU frame times were I would say: Identical between what I witnessed real time in game and how the track playback was.

I am going to try what your links suggest (the stuff I have not already tried before)@Skopro_PL. But a lot of what is mentioned in your links is what I already tried. No need to fiddle with the settings because everything already is set to "Low" except (cockpit) textures and Shadows set to "low" instead of "flat"

Which means I already gave up with tuning and looking forward to feed DCS with more CPU horsepower. Which are the 20 % I hope to gain from upgrading from a 5900x to a i9-12900KF. Which is too optimistic I'm afraid though. This is what this thread should be about. If I did the upgrade I also would try W11 because the Intel processor can make use of it.


Edited by darkman222
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To the i9-12900KF owners. This is what the task manager shows. Although I know my 5900x is capable to turbo boost up to 5 Mhz it is unlikely to see it.

Is someone around here with a i9-12900KF and can tell me what his task manager shows? Not really sure if that is a feasible way to compare. But you might realize it is really hard for me to decide if I want to invest the money or stick with my 5900 for the next year. Maybe until the new Ryzen 6000 series comes up.

grafik.png

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A good comparison for DCS are e.g. the Cinebench 1T benchmarks. Since DCS runs mainly on only 1 thread, loading the CPU up with many threads and looking at clock speed will not give you much relevant results. Process lasso had no effect in testing on the latest AMD CPUs. Ryzen Master shows you the best cores and DCS will jump between them. You can squeeze a bit of performance if you want to look into the curve optimizer and also tighter timings on your RAM.

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Well, in that comparison it looks like the Ryzen 5900 is even better than the 12900K in standard resolution which is different from my recent research, where the Intel is better in low resolutions but the advantage gets lost almost completely when the resolutions go up to 4k.

I did not find any tests for DCS though. Comparing it in MSFS seems to be a good idea to start from, but the source code of DCS is way older. So I am not really sure how to interpret such tests though.

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I would research how to maximize your platform and it's a capability before you upgrade. I'm not currently running an AMD (zen2) platform, but my brother does, and he had boost "issues" which were solved with a deep dive into the BIOS.

I'm not sure what your settings in the BIOS are, but I would check on DOCP and PBO (precision boost overdrive). Also 5GHz is single core boost, multi-core will be roughly 100-200mhz lower. I would also look into thermal throttling, Zen2 had a softcap of 80C and hard cap of 90/95C (though I think Zen3 removed the 80C soft cap) . From your original screenshot you're showing 79C, which is quite high for gaming and is close to the hard cap (poor cooler, poor contact, poor case ventilation or combination of all 3).

You're getting similar frame time to what I'm getting on my 7700k@5.1 Ghz (but at more conservative graphics settings) , something isn't right with your setup. I would dig deep into the bios, as honestly I think you'll be wasting money going from your current platform to a 12900KF platform.

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I own a rig based on a 10900K@5.1GHz / 3090, and with an 8KX I get firm 60 FPS without motion smoothing, the experience is really amazing, everything goes smooth with no stuttering. I have tried several HMS (Index, G1, G2, VP2) and 8KX is the best one by far.  

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@NahemothSounds interesting. I remember you. We had a chat via private messages before you purchased your Pimax. Let me shoot you a PM and see if you can run a track file for me. So we can have a perfect comparison and I can post the result here.

And of course thank you guys for the replies. I am going to see if there is something wrong with my current processor , cpu fan and bios. It really feels like I am missing something important constraining my performance.


Edited by darkman222
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@darkman222 I have a 5900X myself (running a lot cooler though, due to a beefy watercooler), and have to agree that the performance of your CPU seems a bit off. Frametimes depends heavily on scenery and settings of course but 20 ms is pretty high. I often see single digits from my CPU and on average I'd say it is between 12-15.

It may very well be, that a Core I9, due to its higher clock give you a performance benefit over a ryzen, but you're seemingly leaving some performance unused. I'd try to fix this before I ditch a perfectly fine (and expensive) CPU for a new one.

"Muß ich denn jedes Mal, wenn ich sauge oder saugblase den Schlauchstecker in die Schlauchnut schieben?"

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I have both processors and after testing them with DCS and a 3090 in VR, (G2 and Quest 2), the difference is inappreciable. For work needs I have left the 5900x for the work PC since I get better performance with certain applications and the 12900KF for the DCS, but as I say there are practically no differences in terms of performance between the two in games, maybe just 1 -2% in favor of the intel. If you have a 5900x it does not compensate you for the extra expense of motherboard + ram + cpu for just a 1-2% improvement performance.


Edited by Werewolf_fs
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On 1/19/2022 at 10:46 AM, darkman222 said:

To the i9-12900KF owners. This is what the task manager shows. Although I know my 5900x is capable to turbo boost up to 5 Mhz it is unlikely to see it.

Is someone around here with a i9-12900KF and can tell me what his task manager shows? Not really sure if that is a feasible way to compare. But you might realize it is really hard for me to decide if I want to invest the money or stick with my 5900 for the next year. Maybe until the new Ryzen 6000 series comes up.

grafik.png

Am I the only person to see that your CPU and HDD are both pegged to 100%?  What's on the HDD?  Where is windows and DCS installed?
This isn't a DCS issue, if this was whilst playing DCS there's something seriously wrong with your machine.  If you're playing DCS I would anticipate no more than 15-20% CPU utilisation in general - 12 cores, DCS uses 2.  Look at what it taking up the CPU cycles because anything taking them up will then pull your GPU back down.

Also CPU does seem very hot, not too sure on the 5900x but my 3600 overclocked to 4.4ghz never tops 60°C.  I would look into that, heat causes the CPU to throttle and will not hit the boost speeds that it needs.

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Thanks for the replies so far. @Werewolf_fs I was looking for someone like you who can do a 1:1 processor comparison in DCS. As there are just some youtube tests in MSFS2020 but none in DCS. Your information helps a lot. And it matches with what I was already expecting, reading the other opinions here, or watching those youtube tests: It wont make sense for me to "upgrade" to the Intel processor. Instead I will need to optimize what I already have.

At this point I dont plan to change my hardware any more . Thanks guys, that decision is made for now. 🍻

XMP is and was activated. Next step, I will force the fans to spin at full speed via BIOS all the time and see what temperatures I get.

@edmuss Sorry its miselading what I posted. The screenshot from the task manager is while I am running a stress test on the CPU. Prime95.exe This was only to see how much turbo boost my Ryzen will give. 

DCS is on a separate m2 HDD (drive E) and drive D youre seeing is my data drive indexing files at the moment.

 


Edited by darkman222
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1 hour ago, darkman222 said:

@edmuss Sorry its miselading what I posted. The screenshot from the task manager is while I am running a stress test on the CPU. Prime95.exe This was only to see how much turbo boost my Ryzen will give. 

but CPUs will only boost on single cores and not on all. You will only see a higher clockspeed it you start a single core test. The second thing is that the cpu will start to shift your main task from one core to an other to distribute the heat from higher core speeds better.

 

 

 

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2 hours ago, darkman222 said:

@edmuss Sorry its miselading what I posted. The screenshot from the task manager is while I am running a stress test on the CPU. Prime95.exe This was only to see how much turbo boost my Ryzen will give. 

DCS is on a separate m2 HDD (drive E) and drive D youre seeing is my data drive indexing files at the moment.

Aha, that makes sense! 😄

The CPU will achieve maximum boost when not stress testing all cores as there will be more thermal overhead.  My 3600 would only boost to 4ghz normally and temperatures into the high 60s, overclocked it to 4.4 across all cores, reduced voltages and now it's faster and cooler.  I am running a thermalright truespirit 140bw with no case so no airflow restrictions.

As mentioned above a cinebench single core benchmark will give you a better indication of what it will boost to.  Also I think you'll see no difference for large expenditure of cash to make the hardware upgrade.

My experience is (with G2@60Hz) that CPU times can be higher than GPU and it will kick in motion smoothing but still be smooth as long as the frametimes don't get above 30ms (roughly half refresh rate fps), this is regardless of the GPU pulling 12 or 20ms.  I run most settings high so you should be able to do so, try turning the settings up and see if it massively affects the GPU frametimes; I aim to tune to 22ms max GPU time at worst case in SP (empty mission flying low over cities in syria for example) and then when up high frametimes are down to 10-12ms.  When mission AI gets involved I have headroom up to 30ms to play with before it gets janky and stutters.


Edited by edmuss

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Quick update... and I feel a little stupid now that I have overlooked this.

Game boost was OFF all the time in BIOS. I turned it on, fired up another stress test with prime95 and well 5 seconds later my CPU was at 115 degrees and the PC switched itself off instantly. 🔥 New CPU fan ordered. Noctua NH-D15. Fingers crossed.


Edited by darkman222
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Blimey, hopefully it's not killed the CPU 😮

Make sure that the new cooler is fully seated with the correct application of a good thermal paste!  Was it the default AMD cooler before?

 

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TM 28" Warthog Deltasim Hotas / DIY Pendular Rudders / DIY Cyclic Maglock Trimmer / DIY Abris / TM TX 599 evo wheel / TM T3PA pro / DIY 7+1+Sequential Shifter / DIY Handbrake / Cobra Clubman Seat
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I just thought I’d chime in RE temps with my 5900. When playing DCS it’ll be anywhere between 62oC and 85oC (think it once went to 89oC). 
This had me concerned as that seemed like it was too hot but I read something on PCGamer that AMD said even 90+ is fine and what they expect. That being said cooler is obviously better but I’m a little less concerned now.

Also I don’t see any increase in cpu frame times when the temp goes up.

I have an Alienware Aurora R10 (only way I could get a 3090 at a “reasonable” price) so I’m aware the cooling I have, though an aio, is going to be sub optimal but so far I’m happy with it and it gets the job done for DCS and my G2. I hope one day to move its guts to a better case one day.

 

Edit. Was playing last night and my cpu temp was 68oC


Edited by Digitalvole
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Passmark:

https://www.cpubenchmark.net/compare/AMD-Ryzen-9-5900-vs-Intel-i9-12900KF/4272vs4611

Go with the i5-12600k and put the extra money into a GPU.  5% difference in the single thread.

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22 hours ago, Digitalvole said:

I just thought I’d chime in RE temps with my 5900. When playing DCS it’ll be anywhere between 62oC and 85oC (think it once went to 89oC). 
This had me concerned as that seemed like it was too hot but I read something on PCGamer that AMD said even 90+ is fine and what they expect. That being said cooler is obviously better but I’m a little less concerned now.

Also I don’t see any increase in cpu frame times when the temp goes up.

I have an Alienware Aurora R10 (only way I could get a 3090 at a “reasonable” price) so I’m aware the cooling I have, though an aio, is going to be sub optimal but so far I’m happy with it and it gets the job done for DCS and my G2. I hope one day to move its guts to a better case one day.

 

Edit. Was playing last night and my cpu temp was 68oC

 

Just keep an eye on the Temps as Zen3 has a hard thermal throttle limit at 90C.

As you found out, for Alienware cooling and airflow are an afterthought. I would consider getting a better cooler if you can, just to get further away from 90C if you often get near the limit. 

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11 minutes ago, EightyDuce said:

 

As you found out, for Alienware cooling and airflow are an afterthought. I would consider getting a better cooler if you can, just to get further away from 90C if you often get near the limit. 

Haha ain’t that the truth!

Changing the fans is meant to help but I think I’ll wait till I can buy a new case and MB as well. It’s not so bad at the moment because it’s winter (cpu temp last night was pretty solidly 68oC) but yeah it gets hotter in summer.

So far I think I’ve only seen 90 once and only for a second or two.

thanks for the advice 👍

 

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