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Will we get scan centering in RWS?


GumidekCZ

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I found this for T-45, I wonder if same will be available for our C version.

"Full action trigger squeeze in blank space:

Moves antenna train angle to focus radar on different vector."

Edited: For Legacy Hornet it means TDC depress in blank space on radar screen.

This is something I miss in Hornet desperately now. Would be great improve beside TWS and Expand and other Radar features.


Edited by GumidekCZ
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of course its missing.

 

the habilty to have a narrow focus on a different vector than the one your are flying is very important.

 

the funny thing is that its already there in the F-16C

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Found this in RW document RADAR THEORY T-45C:

The T-45C VMTS and OFT A/A radars simulate search and track modes similar to those found in the APG-73 of the F/A-18 C/D and early models of the E/F.

MOST IMPORTANT:

Anytime the azimuth selection is less than 140 degrees, the azimuth of the scan volume can be moved, as in the air-to-ground modes, by placing the cursor and the new desired center point and selecting first detent and release of the trigger in OFT and second detent trigger and release in VMTS.

Hopefully Hornet ED team will found this true and will add this feature with realeasing TWS scan.

For info:

Virtual Mission Training System (VMTS)

The Operational Flight Trainer (OFT)

"Systems that emulates a mechanically scanned radar system such as the APG-73"


Edited by GumidekCZ
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There is bunch of more, usefull things like TWS AUTO scan centering.

Because of the reduced scan volume in TWS, the option for manual or automatic scan centering is available at PB 13 in both VMTS and OFT.

The AUTO selection centers azimuth and elevation to include as many trackfiles as possible. This is automatically selected if TWS is entered from STT or if a break track occurs. Manual scan volume positioning is default when TWS is entered from RWS or VS. Positioning of the scan volume is done by depressing and releasing the DC in an open space in the tactical area (not on a trackfile).

Functions of first and second detent trigger:

 

The trigger is a two-stage pull trigger that provides for track designation. The trigger is recommended rather than DC depression for trackfile designation, because slewing of the cursor is possible while the DC is depressed.

 

The trigger is a two-stage trigger, which functions as follows:

a. In the OFT:

i. The first detent and release designates the trackfile under the cursor as the L&S

ii. The second detent and release commands STT on the L&S

iii. The first detent also centers the scan volume when azimuth scan selection is less than 140 degrees

 

b. In VMTS, the first detent has no functionality, but the second detent:

i. Centers scan azimuth when less than 140 is selected

ii. First actuation makes the contact under the cursor the L&S

iii. Second actuation commands STT


Edited by GumidekCZ
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Not sure why an item of functionality from the Hornet that is referenced in unclassified docs should be a wishlist item. Moving the radar scan centroid with full action trigger is part of the USN training process for the MELD. A principal part of the process in MELD sets the radar scan centroid around the sorted target for greater resolution and it makes good sense.

 

SNFOs are encouraged to use HOTAS for bump functionality to adjust range and azimuth. While this is taught here as “technique”, it will be the preferred method in the F/A-18. Execution of the correct procedure is more important than the technique used.The purpose in entering STT prior to TWS in sort mechanics is to force the radar into AUTO scan centering. SNFOs should not deviate from the meld mechanics by going directly to TWS from RWS at PB5.The meld procedure ensures the TWS scan volume is centered in azimuth and altitude on the targeted group.

 

 

This paragraph explains multiple things around the mechanics wrt how the radar works to put its train angle on the centre mass of a targeted track.

 

 

Using unclass docs as training tools is pretty common in the sim community, there is nothing secret about the way a radar is operated, only about it's actual performance. This particular doc reference is the beloved P-825.

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moved, I will try and find out, but I have no knowledge of this feature myself.

 

thanks

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This sounds like a nice feature and if it's appropriate for our Hornet, I'd love to have it in the sim. One question though; I understand about the first trigger stage press, but isn't the second trigger stage just going to launch a missile, if the jet is in A/A mode with Master Arm On?

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This sounds like a nice feature and if it's appropriate for our Hornet, I'd love to have it in the sim. One question though; I understand about the first trigger stage press, but isn't the second trigger stage just going to launch a missile, if the jet is in A/A mode with Master Arm On?

 

This is from the T45, which has a different HOTAS setup (not sure if it even has any missiles available). For the Hornet, it's TDC depress :)

 

Also - just a quick note: this is not SPOT mode.

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There's a few different Western radars and a few different interfaces. Many of them share the same principle of centering scan or focusing (even without the SPOT specific mechanic) when performing half of the step to locking. So I'm not suggesting that X feature is specific to X radar version, but generally the principle of the deeper physical mechanics is well documented and unclassified and all makes logical sense in operation, and indeed our simulations of this are no less useful given we make the radar look specifically in areas via the use of processes.

 

 

 

Any work to get these mechanics deeply simulated affects whole families of radars and is of broad benefit both as simulation and in just having the radar operate more effectively in 'gaming', so it's my feeling that the continual deep dive to finish the rest of the radar behaviours in the two current EA modules is of great benefit to a broad audience and modules perhaps in the future.

 

Also not suggesting ED isn't/hasn't deeply considered it either. We just don't really know about that.

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Bits and pieces of info in this thread but Lots of just made up info. Looks like your reading radar training pubs. The VMTS is a virtual radar installed in t-45. if emulates n the an/alg-73. The pubs’ likely a few years old as I think most are upgraded to AESA now. OFT just refers to operational flight trainer, that, of course includes radar simulation in addition tonalll other systems.

 

The legacy hornet should do the same, both scan centering in RWS (all mods actually) and spotlight. Bignewy Let me know if you need info or verification, pretty important features, and this came up before and answer was

ya’ll didn’t have docs on it or something. Like I said though, pretty core function. Works almost identical to as described but with TDC depress instead of trigger: with priority assigned to radar, TDC depress in tactical region with no raw return or trackfile under cursor will recenter scan on that azimuth to the extent that the azimuth sweep allows it to do so without exceeding gimbal limit. So if you’re at 140, you I cannot recenter scan. If you’re at 80, scan can be recentered to a max of 100 degrees in either direction. If azimuth scan is increased, the center will automatically shift toward center until it’s centered again

 

If TDC depress is held ~.3 seconds, Radar will enter spotlight mode on that point. Spot will be displayed across the bottom and cursor will change to an x. The radar enters a space stabilized high update narrow scan... forgive me it’s been a while, but I think it’s 20 deg wide, and either it keeps existing existing vertical pattern (# of bars), or goes to 30 deg or some fixed value. Anyway, it can be slewed around to interrogate areas where you might have seen a return that faded, a track you’ve lost from terrain, or look for a aged track that’s faded, etc. Beyond that it works similar to Mavericks- If the X cursor is positioned over a return and released, the radar will immediately attempt STT on that target. Just using spot will not trigger RWR warning, at least as modeled in DCS (some aircraft would alert pilot to increased energy, and perhaps elevate threat).

 

18c has scan centering in all radar modes, inc. vs and ax/el. RWS, VS and Az/el all work similar, TWS manual mode is similar semi and auto are different, allow pilot to bias to one or other side of l&s, or maintain track of l&s and dt2, etc


Edited by sk000tch
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just a dude who probably doesn't know what he's talking about

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Promised radar RAID mode (centered bundled, long range Uber bore mode as it were) would suffice for a while, a lot easier to implement I would guess.

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  • 2 years later...

Will we ever get proper azimuth centering in RWS?

As far as I’m aware, when using other than 140°azimuth, pressing the TDC on a blank area of the B-scope should center the scan on that location, similar to TWS. Currently this is not possible.

This makes RWS a difficult mode to use when you have bandits > 30° off the nose. You either use a larger azimuth scan with it’s associated disadvantages, come nose on, or change to TWS. Non of these solutions are ideal, and scan centering in RWS would be the preferred solution.


Edited by norman99
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  • norman99 changed the title to Will we get scan centering in RWS?
3 hours ago, Chenstrap said:

If you hold TDC down for a couple seconds the radar will follow the cursor around.

That's specifically SPOT mode, which is different. Centering the RWS volume azimuth can currently be done on the AZ/EL page, but should also be possible on the ATTK format as well. The process is a little different compared to TWS MAN centering. I'll have to double-check the 742-100, but IIRC you would cursor select the desired azimuth volume on the ATTK format and hold TDC depressed, then slew the cursor to the desired scan center and release.


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3 hours ago, Tholozor said:

That's specifically SPOT mode, which is different. Centering the RWS volume azimuth can currently be done on the AZ/EL page, but should also be possible on the ATTK format as well. The process is a little different compared to TWS MAN centering. I'll have to double-check the 742-100, but IIRC you would cursor select the desired azimuth volume on the ATTK format and hold TDC depressed, then slew the cursor to the desired scan center and release.

 

Should just be a depress & release on the ATTK or AZ/EL page when there is no Target Under Cursor.

 

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That's specifically SPOT mode, which is different. Centering the RWS volume azimuth can currently be done on the AZ/EL page, but should also be possible on the ATTK format as well. The process is a little different compared to TWS MAN centering. I'll have to double-check the 742-100, but IIRC you would cursor select the desired azimuth volume on the ATTK format and hold TDC depressed, then slew the cursor to the desired scan center and release.
IIRC that's the process for A/G radar scan centering, which we also don't have in the game.

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  • 4 months later...
On 10/16/2019 at 1:26 PM, BIGNEWY said:

moved, I will try and find out, but I have no knowledge of this feature myself.

 

thanks

Do we have any progress here? We are still missing azimuth steering L/R on radar page by pressing TDC depress short in empty area on radar screen.

On 10/16/2019 at 8:14 PM, sk000tch said:

Bits and pieces of info in this thread but Lots of just made up info. Looks like your reading radar training pubs. The VMTS is a virtual radar installed in t-45. if emulates n the an/alg-73. The pubs’ likely a few years old as I think most are upgraded to AESA now. OFT just refers to operational flight trainer, that, of course includes radar simulation in addition tonalll other systems.

 

The legacy hornet should do the same, both scan centering in RWS (all mods actually) and spotlight. Bignewy Let me know if you need info or verification, pretty important features, and this came up before and answer was

ya’ll didn’t have docs on it or something. Like I said though, pretty core function. Works almost identical to as described but with TDC depress instead of trigger: with priority assigned to radar, TDC depress in tactical region with no raw return or trackfile under cursor will recenter scan on that azimuth to the extent that the azimuth sweep allows it to do so without exceeding gimbal limit. So if you’re at 140, you I cannot recenter scan. If you’re at 80, scan can be recentered to a max of 100 degrees in either direction. If azimuth scan is increased, the center will automatically shift toward center until it’s centered again

 

If TDC depress is held ~.3 seconds, Radar will enter spotlight mode on that point. Spot will be displayed across the bottom and cursor will change to an x. The radar enters a space stabilized high update narrow scan... forgive me it’s been a while, but I think it’s 20 deg wide, and either it keeps existing existing vertical pattern (# of bars), or goes to 30 deg or some fixed value. Anyway, it can be slewed around to interrogate areas where you might have seen a return that faded, a track you’ve lost from terrain, or look for a aged track that’s faded, etc. Beyond that it works similar to Mavericks- If the X cursor is positioned over a return and released, the radar will immediately attempt STT on that target. Just using spot will not trigger RWR warning, at least as modeled in DCS (some aircraft would alert pilot to increased energy, and perhaps elevate threat).

 

18c has scan centering in all radar modes, inc. vs and ax/el. RWS, VS and Az/el all work similar, TWS manual mode is similar semi and auto are different, allow pilot to bias to one or other side of l&s, or maintain track of l&s and dt2, etc

 

 

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6 minutes ago, GumidekCZ said:

Do we have any progress here? We are still missing azimuth steering L/R on radar page by pressing TDC depress short in empty area on radar screen.

Sorry no, if you have any unclassified evidence of this for the C model we have done please PM it to me

thanks

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I'm fairly certain proof has been given, it's easy to find. If ED doesn't have proof I can send it to them

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53 minutes ago, MARLAN_ said:

I'm fairly certain proof has been given, it's easy to find. If ED doesn't have proof I can send it to them

If you have unclassified non ITAR controlled evidence feel free to PM me

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@BIGNEWY I would have assumed the evidence could be found at the same place it was for TWS... isn't that the case? Then, wouldn't it be enough to check with your SMEs? Because every Hornet pilot I've spoken to (disclaimer: non US Navy nor Marines) has told me it is a real capability... and I would assume US jets are not lagging on such a basic feature. Furthermore... couldn't we just assume it is a feature independent of the radar AA mode selected? It does not look like this would hint towards use of any illegal doc, does it?

 

I understand EDs approach to ITAR and classification, and it does make sense... although there are some "common-sense limits", there are things already implemented based on assumptions, and not needing hard evidence, and this looks to be 50% common sense, 50% known. I would assume a quick check with a SME should suffice to bring it back (IIRC it was present some time ago)

 

BR

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3 minutes ago, Ahmed said:

Wasn't this reported recently?? We are getting a lot of mixed information lately.

we have a report open where we are collecting the information, we need somewhere to collect information, sorry if you are confused but that is how things work. 

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  • 4 weeks later...
On 5/31/2022 at 9:14 AM, MARLAN_ said:

I'm fairly certain proof has been given, it's easy to find. If ED doesn't have proof I can send it to them

Is it? 

742-100 is a pretty dense document, but I can't find anything that details manual scan centering in RWS. Section 011 03 details both manual and bias scan centering for TWS, but is pretty explicit that it is for TWS only.

Am I missing something?

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