4V4 Aim 7 Hornet missions Vs. Mig 29's

[kennyuk77]

I have been finding these missions incredibly difficult, I have tried different approaches but often seem to get splashed by the first R27 a mig fires while a barrage of AIM 7's my flight fires go harmlessly by. I have had a few wins but mainly when i am lucky enough to survive to the merge. Does anyone think it is because the R27 has greater range than the AIM7? 

 

EDIT I didn't know about the dot indicator for holding a radar lock, that is very useful in holding a lock, I am getting somewhere now!

I have learned: Follow the dot indicator totally, Loft is essential past 10 miles, in a 4v4 fight, always go for the lead aircraft.

I feel like i am mastering this though any advice would be appreciated

Edited January 15, 2022 by kennyuk77

[WarbossPetross]

20 часов назад, kennyuk77 сказал:

I have been finding these missions incredibly difficult, I have tried different approaches but often seem to get splashed by the first R27 a mig fires while a barrage of AIM 7's my flight fires go harmlessly by. I have had a few wins but mainly when i am lucky enough to survive to the merge. Does anyone think it is because the R27 has greater range than the AIM7? 

 

EDIT I didn't know about the dot indicator for holding a radar lock, that is very useful in holding a lock, I am getting somewhere now!

I have learned: Follow the dot indicator totally, Loft is essential past 10 miles, in a 4v4 fight, always go for the lead aircraft.

I feel like i am mastering this though any advice would be appreciated

 

I'm somewhat grateful I'm not the only one finding this mission almost impossible (the 8v8 Caucasus BVR quick mission is even worse). Don't know about the range, but the definitive intended advantage of R-27 over Sparrow (and Amraam for that matter) is speed. You may reach out further but it will touch you first and with more probability. You may try cranking, that usually gets me through the first salvo so that they can clap me a few moments later. I don't know about going for the nearest target since that's what the AI seems to be fixated on, I normally go for the second or third guy so as not to waste two missiles on one target and let the other guy slip through. You may want to enable the SA screen with the indication of who targets whom, but with air start at this distance I personally can't find the time to do this. Generally I find the Hornet the hardest plane to fight in, and that's between F-16, the Tomcat and the Jeff. It just resists me when I try to do A-A (A-G is fine though). Maybe it's the programmed air start state with countermeasures turned off by default (like, seriously???) and whatnot, the borked radar implementation, some aspects of aircraft performance and workflow or the combination of the above. Literally no other plane causes me this much trouble.

[Exorcet]

The AIM-7 is slower than the R-27, so depending on firing range, the R-27 will reach you first. This is a pretty major advantage for that missile as once you're dead, your Fox 1 missiles are harmless. If you're carrying a decent amount of missiles, I'd launch one at max range just to make the MiG's defensive. The AI will usually ditch guiding their missiles if they defend an incoming missile at all. Once this happens, follow up with a second AIM-7 and keep your nose on the target until it's dead unless you need to defend.

All of this is made easier if you can split up the fight before hand. Order half of your flight to go right while you go left with a wingman. This will make it easy to tell who is attacking who on radar. Focus on the aircraft attacking you, then go help your wingmen.

As for defending against missiles, because the Hornet is slow you'll want to focus on diving and beaming in order to drag enemy missiles into thicker air and break locks.

[kennyuk77]

Thanks for replies, some points there confirm what I suspected and some good advice also. Thanks again

3 hours ago, WarbossPetross said:

I'm somewhat grateful I'm not the only one finding this mission almost impossible (the 8v8 Caucasus BVR quick mission is even worse). Don't know about the range, but the definitive intended advantage of R-27 over Sparrow (and Amraam for that matter) is speed. You may reach out further but it will touch you first and with more probability. You may try cranking, that usually gets me through the first salvo so that they can clap me a few moments later. I don't know about going for the nearest target since that's what the AI seems to be fixated on, I normally go for the second or third guy so as not to waste two missiles on one target and let the other guy slip through. You may want to enable the SA screen with the indication of who targets whom, but with air start at this distance I personally can't find the time to do this. Generally I find the Hornet the hardest plane to fight in, and that's between F-16, the Tomcat and the Jeff. It just resists me when I try to do A-A (A-G is fine though). Maybe it's the programmed air start state with countermeasures turned off by default (like, seriously???) and whatnot, the borked radar implementation, some aspects of aircraft performance and workflow or the combination of the above. Literally no other plane causes me this much trouble.

They are tough missions! I had some success targeting the lead plane and holding lock till the enemy goes defensive and stops guiding his missiles, though of course this doesn't always work. F18 seems to struggle at range but is fairly solid close up, though not amazing.

3 hours ago, Exorcet said:

The AIM-7 is slower than the R-27, so depending on firing range, the R-27 will reach you first. This is a pretty major advantage for that missile as once you're dead, your Fox 1 missiles are harmless. If you're carrying a decent amount of missiles, I'd launch one at max range just to make the MiG's defensive. The AI will usually ditch guiding their missiles if they defend an incoming missile at all. Once this happens, follow up with a second AIM-7 and keep your nose on the target until it's dead unless you need to defend.

All of this is made easier if you can split up the fight before hand. Order half of your flight to go right while you go left with a wingman. This will make it easy to tell who is attacking who on radar. Focus on the aircraft attacking you, then go help your wingmen.

As for defending against missiles, because the Hornet is slow you'll want to focus on diving and beaming in order to drag enemy missiles into thicker air and break locks.

Thanks, after a few hours practise yesterday, this seems very relevant advice

[Nahemoth]

You can also edit the mission and just change the Sparrow by an AIM-120C, the difficulty gets more balanced.

[kennyuk77]

1 hour ago, Nahemoth said:

You can also edit the mission and just change the Sparrow by an AIM-120C, the difficulty gets more balanced.

Yes I have tried different loadouts

[cru]

This mission drives me crazy too. Its the one I spend the most time practicing (and by practicing, I mean dying).

I actually rely on my AIM-9's first until theyre all expended.  Then I can switch to AIM-7's to finish off the Migs.

I've learned my wingmen are pretty useless most of the time.  Whenever I can successfully finish this mission, it's usually me that splashes 3 at least, usually all 4 Migs.

I've also learned you have to just go straight into the merge with as little maneuvering as possible and extend past the merge at max speed (Mach 1.2+) before turning back in

The AI will usually start tangling amongst themselves after the merge unless you go nose hot immediately at the merge. Thats a solid recipe for an R-73 to the face.

I'm glad to see other people love-hate it as much as I do.  the 8v8 BVR is just a fun way to instantly die too lol.

I really just think AIM-7's are just hot garbage at this point.  Unless your enemy is in front of you and barely maneuvering, in a low energy state, they're almost useless.  They're really a liability since you have to remain nose hot, Even if you use them in TWS mode set to AUTO in a notch.  IMHO.  I just treat AIM-7's as a last resort now.

[CBStu]

I haven't flown this mission in a long time but generally I refuse to use 7s. I re-arm to all 120Cs. The other day I was flying a mission and happened to check the F-10 map right after launching my own 120C and then hearing a missile launch warning. The enemy missile was moving much faster than the 120C so yep, we are at a definite disadvantage.

[percivaldanvers]

On 2/10/2022 at 6:07 AM, cru said:

I've also learned you have to just go straight into the merge with as little maneuvering as possible and extend past the merge at max speed (Mach 1.2+) before turning back in

The AI will usually start tangling amongst themselves after the merge unless you go nose hot immediately at the merge. Thats a solid recipe for an R-73 to the face.

I'm glad to see other people love-hate it as much as I do.  the 8v8 BVR is just a fun way to instantly die too lol.

I really just think AIM-7's are just hot garbage at this point.  Unless your enemy is in front of you and barely maneuvering, in a low energy state, they're almost useless.  They're really a liability since you have to remain nose hot, Even if you use them in TWS mode set to AUTO in a notch.  IMHO.  I just treat AIM-7's as a last resort now.

 

Wow thank you. Using this method got me my first shut-out victory on this. I'm not really sure why it worked, but it worked really well just going straight into the merge with fox-2s. At least much better than thinking I could win a BVR fight with aim-7s

[ruxtmp]

Pretty realistic the Aim-7 was notorious for missing (the best they achieved was 68% in 1991 gulf war). The mission puts you at a disadvantage as the normal US tactic would be to sneak up on the attacking force and not just meet them head on.

[percivaldanvers]

This mission was a constant stumbling block for me, and it's still something I probably only win like 60% of the time now, but the things that helped me most were:

1. Fire your missiles early and often

2. Once you're close enough to visually acquire a target don't be afraid to drop your lock and start lobbing Aim 9s at the nearest migs. The Aim 7s suppress the enemy, and the Aim 9s kill them. If you run out of Aim 9s you should still have some Aim 7s left over (it's unlikely you'll have time to fire more than one or two tops before the merge) and you can use these to mop up anything that's left.

3. If you don't mind bending the rules a bit, switch your Aim 7Ms for 7Ps. They're much better.