Winwing Orion HOTAS review

[SailorJerrys]

5 hours ago, Bwaze said:

Yeah, I'm happy. In ideal world I'd wish for a bit more centring force near the centre with extended stick, maybe I'll try to find stronger springs - gimbal seems sturdy enough to support this.

I have also considered Super Libra stick base, but the increased price and increased shipping cost was really a bit too far. And at least for me the single cam design really works - stick is really smooth when transitioning through the centre of axes, some users report they can't get their Super Libra bases to do that (user error or just nature of two cam gimbal?).

 

Hmmm. I think I'll have to make my own decision on this one, I'll take a look at the estimated pricing and shipping costs on what I'm considering and see if it's worth the extra for the Super Libra.

I think regardless it'll be a major step up from my X52, honestly.

5 hours ago, MustangSally said:

My libra is perfectly smooth at the center. You have to spend time adjusting the cams but once done ther's no issues.

Yeah I imagine it takes a tiny bit of work, I know the F18 grip some people have taken apart and hot glued things in better... So it wouldn't shock me.

[Bwaze]

Some thoughts on Winwing F-18 stick buttons and switches, compared to Thrustmaster Warthog (F-18 and F-16):

Buttons like Weapon Release, Undesignate / Nosewheel steering are a bit soft on Winwing, compared to Thrustmaster. 5-way switches also don't have great resistance, but they have rather large travel with progressive spring force, so you don't engage them by accident. Winwing F-18 5-way switches are gated (except trim hat) - on F-16EX I think they are not. Trigger isn't too soft, but it has a strange "three stage" feel - first you actuate the first stage switch, then you have a stop (a leaf spring) which buckles if you press further, and at the end of travel there is second stage switch, less defined than the buckling of spring in the middle. I understand the logic behind that, you can press the first stage and be sure you'll not press the second stage switch by accident, but it's still strange. Some people have modified it, they bent the leaf spring a bit so that this intermediate detent isn't in the middle of the travel, it coincides with second stage switch - but it's fiddly work.

Some people also aren't fans of softer forces on most of the buttons, and feel like Winwing is a step down from Warthog, since real aircraft sticks have even greater actuation forces. Some  people even modify their Thrustmaster sticks to install real Otto switches and hats, each costing more than Thrustmaster or Winwing grip itself...

I don't mind softer buttons. They are crisp, with audible and tactile clicks, more similar to Thrustmaster F-18 grip than silent Thrustmaster A-10 / F-16 grip. And on sticks with relatively soft spring force these buttons are perfect - I feel like real hard to actuate buttons would actually throw your aim when you would press them. If you consider these forces on real F/A-18 stick:

"Stick Force. In maneuvering flight, there is a light but constant stick force per g (about 3.5 to 4.5 pounds/g)."

You only need about 1.4 kg to fully deflect the Winwing Orion F-18 stick, about 1 kg with extension. And even less for Thrustmaster Warthog, about 1 kg for unextended, 0.6 kg for extended stick. In real F/A-18 you'll be pulling 2 kg at 2 g, 6 kg at 3 g... and so on until about 15 kg of force needed for maximum - 7.5 g. So more than 10x the force needed for our feeble sim sticks. So using real switch which needs about the same actuation force as the stick at full deflection doesn't sound like a very balanced control system (in Otto replacement page here in this forum one user used 4 lbs (1.8 kg) switch for Weapon Release). Pressure sensing real F-16 side stick needs about 11 kg for full pitch and 8 kg of force for full roll! You can buy FSSB-R3 which is relatively accurate force sensing base (and costs about 500 EUR) which maxes out at about 6 kg, much higher than moving gimbal bases, but still only about half of the real one.

Real life switches and hats carry great responsibility - accidental release or accidental press which make you fail your mission (or kill you or other people you don't intend to kill) are something completely different in real life compared to our gameplay. And I think I've read that all cockpit switches, buttons, levers have to be extra sturdy for the simple fact that pilots don't enter and exit the plane too carefully, and maintenance crew can bump into them while working in cockpit - they have to survive boot kick, not just finger press! It would be nice if we would have this sturdiness in our toys, but it's more economical to just yell at your simpit maintenance crew to be more careful.

 

[Storm_ctrl]

I have the Winwing Orion f18 hotas and have a few questions.

If I load a profile through simapppro do I need to keep it running all the time while playing? If I stop running the profile will I lose my bindings?

Do I need to keep simapp pro the entire app running in the back ground every time I play DCS?

 

I am also curious if the super libra base is much better. Has anyone tried both? Do they use the same stick?

 

Thanks

Edited February 28, 2022 by Storm_ctrl

[firefox121]

En 28/2/2022 a las 20:07, Storm_ctrl dijo:

I have the Winwing Orion f18 hotas and have a few questions.

If I load a profile through simapppro do I need to keep it running all the time while playing? If I stop running the profile will I lose my bindings?

Do I need to keep simapp pro the entire app running in the back ground every time I play DCS?

 

I am also curious if the super libra base is much better. Has anyone tried both? Do they use the same stick?

 

Thanks

 

No, when you load a profile and push the run button, it stores on your input plane joystick folder, even if you close your simapp it will be there, if you make changes to this profile, be sure to rename it to your convenience, because if you run again the simapp and push the run button on the profile, it will overwrite yours, and all work done to suit it to you will be lost.

[shadepiece]

Is the connector used in the Winwing stick the same as the Trustmaster. Meaning would I be able to use the same extension cords for my TM extensions with the Winwing base and stick. I have an 8in TM extension.

[Bwaze]

No, unfortunately not, Winwing connector is similar but it has one extra pin, so it's Mini DIN6, Thrustmaster is Mini DIN5.

[AndyHill]

Is the deadzone on the Winwing platform 1) a setting or a permanent feature and 2) does it also exist on the Libra base?

[Bwaze]

I have searched and I haven't found any axis customization options in SimApp Pro software, apart from those that are offered (setting afterburner ratio for throttle axis, axis movement speed for virtual axis assigned to buttons)... There is nothing in calibration portion or settings that would affect this.

Deadzone isn't big - less than 1 degree of movement in any direction, on my extended Winwing Orion I'd estimate deadzone size is about 5 x 5 mm. It shows as 1 degree on my graphs due to rounding. This is looking at raw DicectX axis response, in SimApp Pro or in any other joystick testing software, so it's not DCS related (where you can set deadzone and curves, but this only affects response in game).

Small deadzone makes sense in Orion which has very soft feeling centre - due to single cam mechanism there is no hard bump or any strong centring force that would insure that stick would fall exactly in centre. This weak centring force is most probably also the reason why stick extension isn't recommended for Orion - although stick centres easily by itself if you let it go, you can very easily give small input by mistake because forces are weak near the centre. Super Libra has different mechanism, with stronger centring force.

But I don't have Super Libra base to check for deadzone. I haven't seen anyone else mentioning the deadzone in Winwing Orion or in Super Libra, but this does not surprise me, since most of the reviews are now non technical Youtube praises that are mostly made so the creator will get another product for free.

[AndyHill]

Holy sierra you're actually correct. I only have the take off panel to test with so I haven't bothered much with the axis settings, but indeed besides calibration there are no axis shaping settings at all. If the same applies to actual joystick axis, that's a bit wow. Of course curves can be set in-game and usually are, because there's usually no one size fits all -solution anyway, so it's not that big a deal. 

Unless of course there's a deadzone or something that can't be adjusted away in-game. It doesn't matter if the deadzone is relatively small, hovering a helicopter or trying to set one down in a tight spot you're often more like thinking about moving the stick than physically moving it, for that even a tiny deadzone is huuuge. Most importantly, even if a little deadzone was the best way to go, people should get to choose the sub-optimal way if they want to.

Funnily enough, I'm actually looking for a unit to review myself. Unfortunately we operate mostly in print, so we're probably not on Winwing's radar. Because I need to buy the stuffs myself and in this price range whatever I'd make from writing the review wouldn't even cover the cost of the hardware, I'd really like to get something I actually want to use myself. A tiny deadzone wouldn't necessarily be a complete deal breaker, but definitely not something I'd expect to see in this level of hardware and price range. 

Have you asked other users or tried to contact Winwing directly? Apparently someone had a sensor slightly loose causing problems so maybe it's a fixable issue? In any case the sensors won't have a built-in deadzone so if WW want to, they should be able to remove it pretty easily in software. 

Now that I look at the description (and if I read it correctly), WW don't actually advertize zero deadzone on Orion - but I think they're probably referring to the mechanical design here: https://wwsimstore.com/p/333.html

[Bwaze]

Yeah, Winwing shop page actually states, in a broken English:

Follow features are cancel compare to Super Libra Joystick base:

Center Stop Device(CSD) for ZERO DEAD ZONE.

As a feature Orion doesn't have - so Super Libra Joystick base should be the one with zero dead zone, and Orion has one.

I have asked on HOTAS Discord channel, which several Winwing representatives attend, and I got this advice:

 

Quote

Reset calibration in both SimApp Pro and joy.cpl (Windows joystick Properties). Calibrate first in SimApp Pro & then in joy.cpl. With magnetic sensors, you shouldn't need a deadzone

I have tried it, and even reversed the procedure, but the deadzone remained the same. Of course deadzone is much more pronounced since I have Winwing extension installed, which adds about 115 mm.

About "tiny deadzone being huuuuge" in certain situations - perhaps in normal conditions, but Winwing Orion base has a large throw - 20 degrees in each direction, so there is about 280 mm of travel from one side to the other. And the portion with the deadzone is also the portion with lowest spring resistance, so it's easier to move it a bit more in the centre - quite the opposite than in Warthog stick with it's hard detent.

And deadzone isn't something real sticks are completely without - for instance breakout forces in aircraft with moveable sticks, deadzone in F-16 side controler - it disregards any force lower than 1.75 lbs - that's about the force most home joysticks need for full deflection, not just to break out of deadzone!

[Bwaze]

Mistery solved!

There is a setting for deadzone in SimApp Pro - if you click on the axis it shows "Dead zone setting" below! It was set to Default. But I have now unchecked the "Default" option and set it to "0", and this is it - now it has no deadzone whatsoever! It also now shows that stick doesn't centre perfectly, of course - perfect centre would be 32767, it centres at about 32550 (0.5% out) in jaw and 32850 (0.25% out) in pitch - most probably due to stick extension. It also accepts decimal numbers, even 0.2% now gives me no dead zone, but still perfectly centred stick. So it is user configurable.

Edited March 27, 2022 by Bwaze

[AndyHill]

Ok that solves it then and now it all kind of makes sense. I can't find that option in the Takeoff Panel axis options, perhaps it just doesn't have one? Not that I'd really need to change anything anyway, it should be enough if bigger axis such as joysticks and throttles have more adjustments.

I'd suggest updating the relevant part of the review to let everyone know that a setting for deadzone exists and that it can indeed be taken out completely. There are indeed situations where deadzones can be useful, but it should always be optional. The review itself was quite interesting and it was refreshing to see such attention to details.

[rosteven1]

I’ve been using the TM Warthog HOTAS for years, and recently upgraded to the WinWing Orion F-16 HOTAS.  I’ve only been using the WinWing HOTAS for a little over a week and find the joystick spring noise (on all axis) very distracting (the noise also has the effect of making me think the joystick is sticking, but this could just be mental).  So here are my questions – 1) Is the spring noise normal or did I just receive a faulty unit, and 2) if the spring noise is normal, does it lessen with age/use of the joystick.  Here the link to a vid that I uploaded showing the sound that I'm getting  -  WinWing Joystick Noise (streamable.com)

Thanks

Edited May 27, 2022 by rosteven1

[Roger01]

Hello, I have the same problem, the springs is noisy like your video... I have tried changing the grease (with and without), the direction of the spring, various things but nothing helps, it always comes back after a few movements...

[Damalio]

Foresee any issues with hybrid Orion2 F16 Throttle and Warthog Stick?

I typically like to fly F16 and love that WinWings has the F16 module.  I have Warthog for the last decade and thinking if I should make the move to WinWing Throttle. I am not seeing the real need to upgrade the stick at this time.

[HILOK]

1 hour ago, Damalio said:

Foresee any issues with hybrid Orion2 F16 Throttle and Warthog Stick?

I typically like to fly F16 and love that WinWings has the F16 module.  I have Warthog for the last decade and thinking if I should make the move to WinWing Throttle. I am not seeing the real need to upgrade the stick at this time.

yes, nice throttle they built. no issues with WW orion throttle and TM warthog stick/base on my side. you might not be able to use some fancy programming functions (across throttle and stick), dunno, cause i am not using those, but even those things (and much more) would be doable using joystick gremlin...

[whisky.actual]

On 3/27/2022 at 2:10 PM, Bwaze said:

Yeah, Winwing shop page actually states, in a broken English:

Follow features are cancel compare to Super Libra Joystick base:

Center Stop Device(CSD) for ZERO DEAD ZONE.

As a feature Orion doesn't have - so Super Libra Joystick base should be the one with zero dead zone, and Orion has one.

I have asked on HOTAS Discord channel, which several Winwing representatives attend, and I got this advice:

 

I have tried it, and even reversed the procedure, but the deadzone remained the same. Of course deadzone is much more pronounced since I have Winwing extension installed, which adds about 115 mm.

About "tiny deadzone being huuuuge" in certain situations - perhaps in normal conditions, but Winwing Orion base has a large throw - 20 degrees in each direction, so there is about 280 mm of travel from one side to the other. And the portion with the deadzone is also the portion with lowest spring resistance, so it's easier to move it a bit more in the centre - quite the opposite than in Warthog stick with it's hard detent.

And deadzone isn't something real sticks are completely without - for instance breakout forces in aircraft with moveable sticks, deadzone in F-16 side controler - it disregards any force lower than 1.75 lbs - that's about the force most home joysticks need for full deflection, not just to break out of deadzone!

Hi, 

I was going to get the extension for my Mk1 base also, was it worth it? Spending close to 100 CAD seems a lot for an 11 cm piece of aluminum.

What's your opinion, did it really change your gameplay?

Thx

Whisky

[MustangSally]

6 hours ago, whisky.actual said:

Hi, 

I was going to get the extension for my Mk1 base also, was it worth it? Spending close to 100 CAD seems a lot for an 11 cm piece of aluminum.

What's your opinion, did it really change your gameplay?

Thx

Whisky

I find that the extension with damper kit is a must for helicopters - finer and more precise control. I also use the extension with stiffer springs/cams for jets. I do have 2 bases which makes swapping out the sticks very easy.

[whisky.actual]

8 hours ago, MustangSally said:

I find that the extension with damper kit is a must for helicopters - finer and more precise control. I also use the extension with stiffer springs/cams for jets. I do have 2 bases which makes swapping out the sticks very easy.

I was under the impression that the original Orion only had 1 set of cams and springs.

[MustangSally]

6 hours ago, whisky.actual said:

I was under the impression that the original Orion only had 1 set of cams and springs.

Yes, sorry. Didn't notice that you had a V1.