known AI has godtier aim

[Gungho]

Problem:

I was flying in a snowstorm and couldnt see the AI 5 NM away when i see laser accurate tracers from ZSU-23mm iron sight cannons flying at my a10. 

this brings me to the next problem is the AI’s dispersion and accuracy is too high. Even iron sight ZSU23s will destroy you if you are flying straight line 10000 ft and under. It feels very unrealistic. Same goes with manpads. They never miss. Dont even get me started on radar guided guns like the shilka and tunguska. 
 

Next is the accuracy difference between a T72 tank and zsu 23mm and dare I say shilka are not much different. I took out all the “AA” around a tank batallion in my a10C2. Thinking that i have gotten rid of the main threat and the accuracy of the T72s heavy machine are not that great against air targets i proceeded to do A10 gun runs on the “defenseless” tanks. God i was wrong their laser accurate machine guns peppered and destroyed my engine and wings.  You basically cant have fun with the A10 anymore. No gun runs basically means no fun. Unless you think shooting one APWS rocket at 5Nm and cranking left 20x for your TGP is fun. Mavericks are in short supply unfortunately.

 

solution: do not allow manually guided iron sight ZSU23mm cannon have superman vision and shoot you through snowstorms and cloud layers. Reduce accuracy of fire but keep volume of fire high. Everything stays realistic and fun at the same time.

 

 

 

Edited January 17, 2022 by Gungho

[Nickkerkwijk]

I agree with you 100%. Its understandable that radar guided AAA are accurate in shooting down aircraft, but the way  BMP's/ IFV and sometimes even BTR's can snipe you out of the cockpit can't be right and need some tweaking imo.

 

Edited January 17, 2022 by Nickkerkwijk

[Snappy]

Agree completely. Super annoying . Radar guided guns are one  thing, but the way even BMP , normal iron sight infantry soldiers and  tanks are shooting laser accurate fire at an aircraft, even if you come in fast&low level and should therefore should be spotted relatively late . 

Would be nice to see if this area saw significant improvement.

Unfortunately DCS seems to be often tailored to stand off weapons and push-to-win buttons, therefore skirting around the problem.

 

 

Edited January 17, 2022 by Snappy

[Gungho]

I kinda vented off this thread post late last night so i apologize if it was hard to read. However, it is true that these problems are there and i love this SIM and care that is why i want to give feedback for something simple to fix. The game is plenty challenging with AA missiles  like the strela short range and long range missiles sa10. Dedicated Antiair like the tunguska and shilka I am fine with the level of accuracy that it has due to the radar bonus. However, I think nerfing the AIs gun accuracy, particularly the BMPs, and tanks would be a small incremental fair change that wouldnt deminish much from the experience. Iron sight AA like the ZSU 23mm is in the grey area. It is dedicated anti air but i still believe they are a little too effective.

[Nealius]

Long-standing issue that seriously kills A2G playability in everything from WW2 modules to modern. With the A-10C having been the flagship module for over a decade, and the new Hind and upcoming Apache being major sellers, this issue should have been addressed ages ago.

[icecold951]

They just need to tweek its ability to lead the target. They don't know the exact speed of the plane. So unless the plane is literally heading straight for them, they can't accurately predict where it will be. And IRL human leading a target is automatically inaccurate with any combat.

[twistking]

there seems to be a bug where in multiplayer games, the AI always behaves as if it was on the highest skill setting.

easy to test if you put some low skilled AAA in ME and playing with ME preview compared to playing it in self-hosted MP: big difference in accuracy and range...

Edited February 22, 2022 by twistking

[NineLine]

Weather and the new clouds is planned to block AI, so this will come.

For tanks and such, I have not seen them be that accurate unless you flying slow, low and level, but we are working on suppression and such for more realistic interaction with ground troops.

If you want to supply me with tracks of your examples though I can submit them to the appropriate reports, I would like to see your tank vs A-10 one as well to make sure its not something else. 

Thanks.

[Rissala]

On 2/23/2022 at 12:01 AM, NineLine said:

Weather and the new clouds is planned to block AI, so this will come.

For tanks and such, I have not seen them be that accurate unless you flying slow, low and level, but we are working on suppression and such for more realistic interaction with ground troops.

If you want to supply me with tracks of your examples though I can submit them to the appropriate reports, I would like to see your tank vs A-10 one as well to make sure its not something else. 

Thanks.

At least forbid the AI BMP's from shooting with very high lead. This is in my opinion the cause of much annoyance since IRL these shots would be almost impossible. In DCS unfortunately they are all too common.

[DOG]

The best way for an AI  to kill an A-10  in DCS is to snipe it with a bmp2 autocannon from like 4 km and sadly the ground units are not the only over-tuned assets in DCS, IMO the HIND A.I. with ATGMs turns those old (_{very hard to use for a human player}) missiles into a weapon to surpass metal gear   they literally can hit an f16 pulling 9 G like is nothing.

[Gunnar81]

While I do agree with ground fire being a tad bit accurate I think a lot of the problem comes from how folks are employing the A10 or other ground attack aircraft which is entering the kill zone of enemy defensive weaponry. The GAU 8 is effective out to 3nm, its not accurate but you can strike hits which can keep you out of the BMP/T72/MANPAD return fire range. The other option you have is if you don't want to be affected by return fire from APC's or Tanks create missions with them as static objects and then make your dreams of danger close strafing runs come true.

At the end of the day strafing runs against armor is cool and fun for sure, but there is a reason the Mav and GBU were developed and that was to keep attack aircraft out of the kill zone of AA systems as much as possible so getting slapped around by AAA if you are flying straight and predictable should be expected if you are below 10,000ft attacking ground targets.

[[HOUNDS] CptTrips]

And yet the b-17 gunners (top, waist, belly) are functionally helpless.

Reminds me of Pulp Fiction.

"Bloody as Hell, or burnt to a crisp?"

 

[Extranajero]

21 minutes ago, Gunnar81 said:

While I do agree with ground fire being a tad bit accurate I think a lot of the problem comes from how folks are employing the A10 or other ground attack aircraft which is entering the kill zone of enemy defensive weaponry.

Unless you fly one of those technothriller jets with a targeting pod and standoff weapons you pretty much have no choice other than to enter the enemy weapons envelope.
People who use the Hornet and the F-16, plinking tanks from 20K feet probably wonder what the all the fuss about AI air defence being way too good is about - but anyone who flies WW2, helos other than the Apache and cold war jets knows all about it.

Quite apart from the accuracy of things like Dooshka's mounted on tanks, and the BMP gunners etc is the AI's omniscience. They always know where you are, they know you are coming and they have 360 degree awareness.
I'll never forget catching a SAM in the face while flying a Viggen at 30 feet, at around M2.0 - I later figured out that the mobile SAM - which was hidden in a fold in the ground - had less than 4 seconds to see me, acquire me and fire before I was out of their line of sight.

I don't know what ED's current position is on this, whether it's :-

1) Not a problem , what's wrong with you ? correct-as-is
2) It's too difficult to change
3) Be patient, improvements are coming in two weeks
4) Have you seen our shiny new module ? pre-order it now for 20% off !

It'll be one or all of those

[NineLine]

13 hours ago, DOG said:

The best way for an AI  to kill an A-10  in DCS is to snipe it with a bmp2 autocannon from like 4 km and sadly the ground units are not the only over-tuned assets in DCS, IMO the HIND A.I. with ATGMs turns those old (_{very hard to use for a human player}) missiles into a weapon to surpass metal gear   they literally can hit an f16 pulling 9 G like is nothing.

This is already reported.

12 hours ago, Extranajero said:

I don't know what ED's current position is on this, whether it's :-

1) Not a problem , what's wrong with you ? correct-as-is
2) It's too difficult to change
3) Be patient, improvements are coming in two weeks
4) Have you seen our shiny new module ? pre-order it now for 20% off !

It'll be one or all of those

You are not correct, this is reported and we want to get it changed. It will be changed. 

 

12 hours ago, [16AGR] CptTrips said:

And yet the b-17 gunners (top, waist, belly) are functionally helpless.

Reminds me of Pulp Fiction.

"Bloody as Hell, or burnt to a crisp?"

 

In what sense are they helpless? There was a reason for the need for escort fighters. We did work on WWII bomber gunners as they used to be too effective. Some gunners in WWII made ace, but I do not think they were racking up kills by any means. 

https://www.mightyeighth.org/blog-post-4/

How are you comparing DCS to real-world missions? Are you throwing the same amount of fighters at bombers that you would have seen in real action?

In many cases it was more about how many bombers were firing at the fighters, so throw up 4 bombers and I am sure you could easily avoid all their fire, throw up a more realistic number and you might find a different result. 

 

 

[[HOUNDS] CptTrips]

6 hours ago, NineLine said:

In what sense are they helpless?

 

In the sense of not even pulling the trigger on a target just sitting within spitting distance from them in close, stable formation. 

Please try the attached test miz on the OP in the thread referenced below.  The Top and Belly gunners are Vegan Pacifists. 

The Waist gunners are Mr. Magoo's. 

 

 

But I don't want to hijack this thread.  We can continue any discussion on the other thread.

I just found the juxtaposition of the God-Tier ground AI gunners with the Bud Light drinking Mr. Magoo B-17 gunners humorous. 

You need to cross breed them to get something in the middle.  

 

 

Edited June 18, 2023 by [16AGR] CptTrips