in roadmap Data Cartridge

[nighthawk2174]

One of the things shown for the 18 was a "Data cartridge" that'd allow us to set quite a few settings for the jet outside of the game. I was wondering if this would be there for the 16 as this seems super important especially considering setting up CM profiles with the ICP is time consuming if the manuals out there and "that other sim are correct".

[Geraki]

https://www.f-16.net/forum/viewtopic.php?t=1346

[QuiGon]

1 hour ago, Desert Fox said:

ED is working on this in general, not F-16 only specifically, for quite a while. Work in progress.

 

Yeah, I would love if ED could raise the priority on this task, as it is a pretty important feature IMHO and it takes way too long

Edited January 20, 2021 by QuiGon

[Gruman]

Well. To be Fair, this topic was created in 2019. And the wish from Nighthawk was already granted. The CMS can be programmed outside the game... (editing Lua Files by editor / Combat Flite / Bailey's CMS Tools).

 

The other needed DTC feature were announced in February 2019, but how this will be achieved and what features will make the cut, is unknown.

- Mission Planning? Import of waypoints would be nice.

- Radio Presets?

- AA / AG Default MFD Setup

 

The Roadmap at least mentioned this feature, but its in a low priority. Sadly.

[Northstar98]

Yeah this functionality is sorely needed, across all modules that have a DTC. Such a feature would probably be best combined with a mission planner (something like the F10 map but with more tools).

AFAIK, for the F-16C the DTC has settings for:

• Default MFD pages in each master mode (including DF/MRM AFAIK) - i.e which MFD pages are initially present on each MFD, and which is initially selected.  
• All steerpoints:
  • 1-24 being flight plan/navigation steerpoints (the steerpoints we're used to already).
  • 25 being the bullseye (currently set automatically).
  • 26-30 for ownship markpoints.
  • 31-54 for HSD lines (you can have 4 separate lines, with 6 vertices in each - useful for marking borders/DMZs, MOAs etc).
  • 56-70 for pre-planned threats (these are the threat rings on the HSD - currently set perfectly and automatically, I'm pretty sure they can also mark a variety of things that aren't purely threats; things like airbases, zones etc).
  • 71-80 for data-linked markpoints (useful for AI flight members, where we can define mark points for them in the mission editor, and then have them transmit them - being controlled via triggers).
  • 81-99 just being open waypoints (which can be used as target waypoints for GPS/INS weapons for example; 90-99 are also used for Harpoon steerpoints for F-16s equipped with it (which isn't ours)). It would be great if all of them were to be able to be edited by the player in a mission planner.

EDIT: Our F-16C supports 127 steerpoints (presumably 81-127 are open steerpoints) and all navigation steerpoints (+ 25) can be used for the bullseye.

• Countermeasures Profiles: Right now you can edit the defaults in the CMDS_ALE47.lua under Mods -> aircraft -> F-16 -> Cockpit -> Scripts -> EWS -> CMDS -> device, the file is fairly self-explanatory, and is set-up the same way as the CMDS DED page. Only thing is, it will reset to default values every time you run a repair or update DCS, so it's best to save a custom CMDS_ALE47.lua to your user area so you can just overwrite the default each time, instead of having to edit it all over again.
• HARM ALIC Tables (presumably): i.e which emitters are present on all 3 of the tables - at the moment these can be edited on the DED, and nowhere else - unlike the countermeasures there's no .lua file with the defaults.
• Radio Presets: already available in full, just they're loaded into the aircraft from the get-go, IRL you'd have to load the comms from the DTE page after inserting the DTC.
• IFF Plan: essentially what codes (for each mode) are in use, and at what times. We don't have IFF modelled to this detail in DCS (apart from the JF-17, for other JF-17s, though without the policy), and we instead have a magic approximation, which just knows which side each aircraft is on at all times. Personally, how the other sim handles this is perfect, it has a policy which is set automatically, and it sets each code and each mode automcatically, without needing to go into classified stuff at all.

The DTC is controlled from the DTE page, which allows you to either load each individually or all at once - almost exactly like the A-10Cs DTC page.

What I hope ED doesn't do is do the bare minimum implementation, like with the A-10C, where the only additional functionality is loading the DTC, we really need an expanded editor with expanded planning tools, in particular for each waypoint/steerpoint. This mission planner should also be available via the ground crew, when the aircraft is on the ground, before start-up, for multiplayer servers.

You could also have the planner display detected threats (detected via reconnaissance, AEW&C and other ISTAR or ELINT platforms) and potential targets (like bridges or other infrastructure, preferably filtered) allowing you to plan missions.

 

To cut a long story short; if we can get something that has the functionality of that other, F-16 orientated sim, it would be a godsend. 

Edited September 12, 2022 by Northstar98
formatting

[Geraki]

i agree withyou 100% to go farther we can share DTC-data from Combatflite tool!!!  Create edit mission data -import it in DCS F-16 DTC . SAM Threat rings , FAOR, CAP point's ,IP's 

DATALINK details, packet details , e.t.c 

[Gruman]

Would be great if ED started with enabling simple text/lua import as a DTC workaround. Ingame of course.

[Northstar98]

1 hour ago, Gruman said:

Would be great if ED started with enabling simple text/lua import as a DTC workaround. Ingame of course.

 

Some 3rd parties currently use the F10 map, and the user map markers as a workaround for waypoints (though not all are available, apart from aircraft like the Tomcat).

[Gruman]

I know. The Viggen even allows Text Import... Every other model doesnt allow this.

 

My usecase would be this:

- Creating a Flightplan CombatFlite

  - Configuring the CMS

  - Targets

  - Threats

  - Radios

- Exporting the txt/lua

- Starting up DCS

- Joining a Server

- Pick a role

- Load the prepared "DTC" ( aka the above txt/lua file)

- Enjoy all prepared Waypints / Radios and continue my mission.

 

Other than starting up the bird. Sitting there 10 min switching between UFC and F10 Map.

I don't mind using the UFC to type in new waypoints or new targets... I just mind the time wasted typing in a flightplan, which is defined beforehand in RL.

[Northstar98]

58 minutes ago, Gruman said:

I know. The Viggen even allows Text Import... Every other model doesnt allow this.

 

My usecase would be this:

- Creating a Flightplan CombatFlite

  - Configuring the CMS

  - Targets

  - Threats

  - Radios

- Exporting the txt/lua

- Starting up DCS

- Joining a Server

- Pick a role

- Load the prepared "DTC" ( aka the above txt/lua file)

- Enjoy all prepared Waypints / Radios and continue my mission.

 

Other than starting up the bird. Sitting there 10 min switching between UFC and F10 Map.

I don't mind using the UFC to type in new waypoints or new targets... I just mind the time wasted typing in a flightplan, which is defined beforehand in RL.

 

Yeah, in this case it's also more about having a mission planner - i.e something that's similar to the mission editor in terms of setting aircraft up (with waypoints and what have you), but available to players either before they spawn, or via the ground crew menu.

 

You bring up the mission planner, configure all of the waypoints (including flight plan, pre-planned threats and any additional waypoints), configure weapon parameters such as pre-planned targets and release parameters (for things like JDAMs and JSOWs - particularly in the Hornet right now), countermeasure profiles etc, use that to build a DTC file (or equivalent), and have to ground crew load it into the DTC, and then when you start the aircraft, you can insert and load the data cartridge, and everything will be ready to go.

 

If we were able to combine what the other sim does in terms of mission planning, and what the JF-17 currently does, then we'd have something basically perfect IMO. 

Edited January 22, 2021 by Northstar98

[Blinky.ben]

@Northstar98 you mentioned the threat rings are perfect and preset, question do these rings get placed in before hand in to the system? That will mean the threat rings will only be available for already know location correct?

 

always wondered how the F-16 had those rings.

[Northstar98]

36 minutes ago, Blinky.ben said:

@Northstar98 you mentioned the threat rings are perfect and preset, question do these rings get placed in before hand in to the system? That will mean the threat rings will only be available for already know location correct?

 

always wondered how the F-16 had those rings.

 

Yes.

 

The pre-planned steerpoints will be generated by a mission planner (probably going off of data collected by a reconnaissance or ELINT asset). The mission planner will place one of these pre-planned threat steerpoints (I'll call them PPTs from here on in), over where the threat was detected, and then they can select which threat it is (SA-2, SA-3 etc) and then this gets loaded into the aircraft's data cartridge - which gets inserted into a slot in back of the right side of the cockpit, and loaded in via the DTE MFD page.

 

The pre-planned threats are what was last known, and with mobile/self-propelled air defences that can change, even before mission start for your flight. In DCS the PPT rings are always initially placed perfectly over the threat and they always get the type of threat right (the last one you'd expect with an ELINT asset, but if it was a RADAR reconnaissance asset, and the threat wasn't emitting, it might be hard to determine exactly) or off completely.

 

In DCS, not only do we not have DTC functionality (at all, everything is always preloaded, the DTC isn't present and the DTE page is currently a placeholder), nor do we have a mission planner where we can control and edit these functions.

 

In this video (in the other sim, with DTC and mission planning functionality), is basically how it works.

 

Also, at least in the other sim, the PPT steerpoints don't have to be exclusively threats, they can be pre-planned markers for a whole number of stuff (don't hold me to that though, it's just what I know - which is pretty little).

Edited January 23, 2021 by Northstar98

[QuiGon]

26 minutes ago, Blinky.ben said:

@Northstar98 you mentioned the threat rings are perfect and preset, question do these rings get placed in before hand in to the system? That will mean the threat rings will only be available for already know location correct?

 

always wondered how the F-16 had those rings.

 

The threat rings are getting created as part of the mission setup, along with waypoints and all the other data that gets stored on the DTC. So yeah, threat rings can only be defined for threats that are known beforehand.

[Dawgboy]

+1

[C3PO]

Cannot wait for the data cartridge to arrive. Manually inputting each LONG/LAT a bit of a pain for multiple targets for weapons like LGBs. Does anyone know how the data cartridge will work? Can we click on a target on the map and that would then automatically be stored in the data cartridge before mission start?

Edited January 20, 2022 by C3PO

[Bunny Clark]

Last time we got any solid info on the feature was years ago. At this point, only ED has a good idea what it'll include. 

[darkman222]

Until then you can get the DTC App a clever dude wrote for us:

 

[QuiGon]

3 hours ago, C3PO said:

Cannot wait for the data cartridge to arrive. Manually inputting each LONG/LAT a bit of a pain for multiple targets for weapons like LGBs. Does anyone know how the data cartridge will work? Can we click on a target on the map and that would then automatically be stored in the data cartridge before mission start?

 

The following info post by Wags is what ED presented to us a while ago. It's a general data cartridge setup, that is not mission specific, so target coordinates are not part of it. It's just for general aircraft settings. It's unclear if that is still the case or if ED has reworked the feature meanwhile.
 

 

[Krippz]

3 hours ago, QuiGon said:

The following info post by Wags is what ED presented to us a while ago. It's a general data cartridge setup, that is not mission specific, so target coordinates are not part of it. It's just for general aircraft settings. It's unclear if that is still the case or if ED has reworked the feature meanwhile.
 

 

Mission specific stuff (e.g. target coordinates) would be more part of a mission planner. DTC is just the input device that interfaces with the jet. I think what most people want is a mission planner & DTC not just a DTC. 

[Northstar98]

2 hours ago, Krippz said:

Mission specific stuff (e.g. target coordinates) would be more part of a mission planner. DTC is just the input device that interfaces with the jet. I think what most people want is a mission planner & DTC not just a DTC. 

A DTC without a mission planner that allows to control it's settings would be pretty useless IMO, you really can't have one without the other.

6 hours ago, QuiGon said:

The following info post by Wags is what ED presented to us a while ago. It's a general data cartridge setup, that is not mission specific, so target coordinates are not part of it. It's just for general aircraft settings. It's unclear if that is still the case or if ED has reworked the feature meanwhile.
 

 

If you take a look at this post by Wags on the subject, it shows some example 'aircraft settings', which will be in the aircraft special options, and a separate 'mission card' for mission specific settings.

Personally, though, I'd rather have both in the mission planner, as I can already see myself wanting to set some of the functions in 'aircraft settings' on a per mission basis.

Edited January 20, 2022 by Northstar98

[randomTOTEN]

8 hours ago, C3PO said:

Cannot wait for the data cartridge to arrive. Manually inputting each LONG/LAT a bit of a pain for multiple targets for weapons like LGBs. Does anyone know how the data cartridge will work?

I'm going to ask.

It's dumb that I'm going to ask this, and I pretty much already know the answer. But I'm going to ask this anyways...

Single Player, or Multi Player?

[Northstar98]

2 minutes ago, randomTOTEN said:

I'm going to ask.

It's dumb that I'm going to ask this, and I pretty much already know the answer. But I'm going to ask this anyways...

Single Player, or Multi Player?

Personally, it should be both.

[QuiGon]

2 hours ago, Krippz said:

Mission specific stuff (e.g. target coordinates) would be more part of a mission planner. DTC is just the input device that interfaces with the jet. I think what most people want is a mission planner & DTC not just a DTC. 

Indeed, I'm also one of those people, but so far ED has not shown anything mission specific in that regard unfortunately.

Edited January 20, 2022 by QuiGon

[randomTOTEN]

2 hours ago, Northstar98 said:

Personally, it should be both.

Then you really didn't get the point of what I was asking.

[Northstar98]

6 minutes ago, randomTOTEN said:

Then you really didn't get the point of what I was asking.

Well, in that case, to be fair, it would've been difficult for you to have made what you were asking, more vague.

Edited January 20, 2022 by Northstar98