Target point and TGP

[Bacab]

Hi everyone,

I have been looking in the manual and in several Youtube tutorials however I have not found a detailed explanation on how the target point logic works in relation to the TGP. Here is what I understood : (assuming you have designated a waypoint and assigned HOTAS control to the TGP)

LITENING II :

LOS on the designated waypoint, TGP in SCENE mode. Moving the LOS with the TDC does not change the target point until you have done a TDC depress (reticule changes to a diamond). If you move again the TDC (the reticule revert to a cross) you'll again need to do a TDC depress to move the target point to the LOS.

If you initiate tracking in either AREA TRACK or POINT mode, it will automatically move the target point to the LOS. TDC depress will allow you to move the Offset cursor.

ATFLIR :

LOS on the designated waypoint, TGP in DESIGNATION mode. You can't change the LOS with the TDC until you have done a TDC depress. Once it's done you can slew the LOS and the target point will follow no matter if the TGP is in INR, SCENE or AUTO mode.

Is that correct ? If not, could you share how you understood it ?

Thank you for your help.

Edited January 22, 2022 by Bacab

[Captain Orso]

Let's get some terminology clear first, bc it makes everythings much easier.

Waypoints are coordinates stored in your board computer, generally used to navigate the route you are required to fly on your mission. You can have a bunch of Waypoints stored; I don't recall how many, but more than I've ever needed.

You always have 1 Waypoint selected in your navigation system. On the HSI page you can find that Waypoint on the left edge of the display, between OSB12 (OSB's start on the left at the bottom with OSB1 and advance clockwise) and OSB13 (between the 'next' and 'previous' Waypoint buttons; the up and down arrows). That is your Steerpoint. The Steerpoint is displayed in the HUD on the right, a bit below the altitude display. If your Steerpoint is only a Waypoint (more about that later) it will show Wpt n where n is the Steerpoint.

OSB14 is labeled  WPDSG (Waypoint Designate) Pressing WPDSG sets the Steerpoint to your Target Point. To review, you always have a set of 1 or more Waypoints, and one of those Waypoints is always the Steerpoint. Your Steerpoint can be your Target Point, but only if you designate it so, and only until you either undesignate it, by pressing WPDSG again, or by switching to a different Steerpoint. (Attention! Weapons requiring a Target Point may lose their programing, if you undesignate your Target Point or switch ing Steerpoints).

Now, on to the targeting pods.

As far as the targeting itself goes, both pods work identically, and that is all we are concerned with, therefore I will only use the term TGP, bc I'm lazy  

The TGP only looks at the ground when either the aircraft is pointed at the ground (VV) or you have a Target Point or an actual Target. If you have a Target Point derived from your Steerpoint, the TGP will 'look' at it as long as it is within the gimbal range of the TGP; ie as long as the TGP can physically turn it's camera to view the Target Point. Since the Target Point is a fixed position stored in the memory of your board computer, we can say the TGP is ground stabilized; that is, you can maneuver your aircraft, within the constraints of the gimble limits of the TGP, and it will continue to look at exactly that point.

In the actual F/A-18 if you press the TDC you can move the 'crosshairs' (I'm calling everything 'crosshairs' which the TGP used to point at and mark a target, regardless of their actual symbology) of the TGP to a different point on the ground, and the TGP will now look only at that point. (In DCS you can go into Options -> F/A-18C and set a checkmark to allow the TDC to move without pressing it. This can make it easier to control the crosshairs. (If your TDC is an actual joystick [Thrustmaster Warthog Throttle HOTAS, et al] you can also set curves to move the TDC crosshairs slower).

When the TGP first looks at the ground, the crosshairs will be the Designated Target Diamond, but that is the only time you will see that, because as soon as you start to move the crosshairs or actually mark a target the diamond will change to different symbology, util you change Target Points, when the diamond will return.

As soon as you move the crosshairs with the TDC, the diamond is gone and you have actual crosshairs aka the Reticle. The Reticle crosshair are always ground stabilized, which means the move through TDC motion relative to where they are pointing at the ground, and disregard the movement of the aircraft, for as long as the camera is within the gimbal limits.

Depending on what kind of target you wish to attack, you will select a Reticle accordingly. If for example you intend to drop a GBU onto a bunker, you use the TDC to put the crosshairs over the bunker, where you wish the bomb to hit, and press the Sensor Control Switch toward the DDI where the TGP is being displayed. This will change the crosshairs to the Area Track Reticle (the crosshairs will get get noticeably longer). When your aim is as you wish, press the TDC to designate that point as the Area Target, and the crosshairs will close in to the center leaving only the exact crossing point open. You may now deliver your weapon of choice within the requirements and limits of the delivery of said weapon.

If your target is a vehicle, press the SCS again toward the DDI to change the Reticle to Point Track Reticle (the two upright lines). When you press the SCS the TGP will try to sweeten the aim to put the target vehicle exactly in the middle of the uprights. If the aim is as you wish, deploy your weapon within the constraints of the weapon's requirements.

In both cases, once Area or Point Tracking is selected, you can no longer slew the crosshairs to further sweeten your aim or choose a different target. You can cycle past Point Track mode back to snowplow mode and adjust your aim from there and continue as per the above.

I don't personally use the Offset Cursor, so I don't have any experience with that. I get along fine without it.

If you have any questions, feel free to ask. Happy hunting 

Edited January 22, 2022 by Captain Orso

[Hulkbust44]

Let's get some terminology clear first, bc it makes everythings much easier.
Waypoints are coordinates stored in your board computer, generally used to navigate the route you are required to fly on your mission. You can have a bunch of Waypoints stored; I don't recall how many, but more than I've ever needed.
You always have 1 Waypoint selected in your navigation system. On the HSI page you can find that Waypoint on the left edge of the display, between OSB12 (OSB's start on the left at the bottom with OSB1 and advance clockwise) and OSB13 (between the 'next' and 'previous' Waypoint buttons; the up and down arrows). That is your Steerpoint. The Steerpoint is displayed in the HUD on the right, a bit below the altitude display. If your Steerpoint is only a Waypoint (more about that later) it will show Wpt n where n is the Steerpoint.
OSB14 is labeled  WPDSG (Waypoint Designate) Pressing WPDSG sets the Steerpoint to your Target Point. To review, you always have a set of 1 or more Waypoints, and one of those Waypoints is always the Steerpoint. Your Steerpoint can be your Target Point, but only if you designate it so, and only until you either undesignate it, by pressing WPDSG again, or by switching to a different Steerpoint. (Attention! Weapons requiring a Target Point may lose their programing, if you undesignate your Target Point or switch ing Steerpoints).
Now, on to the targeting pods.
As far as the targeting itself goes, both pods work identically, and that is all we are concerned with, therefore I will only use the term TGP, bc I'm lazy  
The TGP only looks at the ground when either the aircraft is pointed at the ground (VV) or you have a Target Point or an actual Target. If you have a Target Point derived from your Steerpoint, the TGP will 'look' at it as long as it is within the gimbal range of the TGP; ie as long as the TGP can physically turn it's camera to view the Target Point. Since the Target Point is a fixed position stored in the memory of your board computer, we can say the TGP is ground stabilized; that is, you can maneuver your aircraft, within the constraints of the gimble limits of the TGP, and it will continue to look at exactly that point.
In the actual F/A-18 if you press the TDC you can move the 'crosshairs' (I'm calling everything 'crosshairs' which the TGP used to point at and mark a target, regardless of their actual symbology) of the TGP to a different point on the ground, and the TGP will now look only at that point. (In DCS you can go into Options -> F/A-18C and set a checkmark to allow the TDC to move without pressing it. This can make it easier to control the crosshairs. (If your TDC is an actual joystick [Thrustmaster Warthog Throttle HOTAS, et al] you can also set curves to move the TDC crosshairs slower).
When the TGP first looks at the ground, the crosshairs will be the Designated Target Diamond, but that is the only time you will see that, because as soon as you start to move the crosshairs or actually mark a target the diamond will change to different symbology, util you change Target Points, when the diamond will return.
As soon as you move the crosshairs with the TDC, the diamond is gone and you have actual crosshairs aka the Reticle. The Reticle crosshair are always ground stabilized, which means the move through TDC motion relative to where they are pointing at the ground, and disregard the movement of the aircraft, for as long as the camera is within the gimbal limits.
Depending on what kind of target you wish to attack, you will select a Reticle accordingly. If for example you intend to drop a GBU onto a bunker, you use the TDC to put the crosshairs over the bunker, where you wish the bomb to hit, and press the Sensor Control Switch toward the DDI where the TGP is being displayed. This will change the crosshairs to the Area Track Reticle (the crosshairs will get get noticeably longer). When your aim is as you wish, press the TDC to designate that point as the Area Target, and the crosshairs will close in to the center leaving only the exact crossing point open. You may now deliver your weapon of choice within the requirements and limits of the delivery of said weapon.
If your target is a vehicle, press the SCS again toward the DDI to change the Reticle to Point Track Reticle (the two upright lines). When you press the SCS the TGP will try to sweeten the aim to put the target vehicle exactly in the middle of the uprights. If the aim is as you wish, deploy your weapon within the constraints of the weapon's requirements.
In both cases, once Area or Point Tracking is selected, you can no longer slew the crosshairs to further sweeten your aim or choose a different target. You can cycle past Point Track mode back to snowplow mode and adjust your aim from there and continue as per the above.
I don't personally use the Offset Cursor, so I don't have any experience with that. I get along fine without it.
If you have any questions, feel free to ask. Happy hunting 

That's not true. ATFLIR and LITENING actually do have different logic. First off, terminology. The LITENING has INR, AREA and point track. ATFLIR has INR, SCENE, and AUTO track.

Area can not be slewed, but SCENE can. Each time SCENE stabilizes after slewing, the target designation is updated.

If you were to TDC depress with an AREA track I'm pretty sure the offset cursor would appear.

AREA, SCENE, PTK, and AUTO should update the designation automatically. TDC depress is needed to designate a point in INR. I also believe that in DCS if you were updating the designation via a different source and castle to the FLIR, you would need to depress for FLIR to be the driving sensor.

ATFLIR in point track will continue to extrapolate the target position when masked.

ATFLIR zoom and FOV is all on the radar elevation control.

[Bacab]

2 hours ago, Captain Orso said:

Let's get some terminology clear first, bc it makes everythings much easier.

Waypoints are coordinates stored in your board computer, generally used to navigate the route you are required to fly on your mission. You can have a bunch of Waypoints stored; I don't recall how many, but more than I've ever needed.

You always have 1 Waypoint selected in your navigation system. On the HSI page you can find that Waypoint on the left edge of the display, between OSB12 (OSB's start on the left at the bottom with OSB1 and advance clockwise) and OSB13 (between the 'next' and 'previous' Waypoint buttons; the up and down arrows). That is your Steerpoint. The Steerpoint is displayed in the HUD on the right, a bit below the altitude display. If your Steerpoint is only a Waypoint (more about that later) it will show Wpt n where n is the Steerpoint.

OSB14 is labeled  WPDSG (Waypoint Designate) Pressing WPDSG sets the Steerpoint to your Target Point. To review, you always have a set of 1 or more Waypoints, and one of those Waypoints is always the Steerpoint. Your Steerpoint can be your Target Point, but only if you designate it so, and only until you either undesignate it, by pressing WPDSG again, or by switching to a different Steerpoint. (Attention! Weapons requiring a Target Point may lose their programing, if you undesignate your Target Point or switch ing Steerpoints).

Now, on to the targeting pods.

As far as the targeting itself goes, both pods work identically, and that is all we are concerned with, therefore I will only use the term TGP, bc I'm lazy  

The TGP only looks at the ground when either the aircraft is pointed at the ground (VV) or you have a Target Point or an actual Target. If you have a Target Point derived from your Steerpoint, the TGP will 'look' at it as long as it is within the gimbal range of the TGP; ie as long as the TGP can physically turn it's camera to view the Target Point. Since the Target Point is a fixed position stored in the memory of your board computer, we can say the TGP is ground stabilized; that is, you can maneuver your aircraft, within the constraints of the gimble limits of the TGP, and it will continue to look at exactly that point.

In the actual F/A-18 if you press the TDC you can move the 'crosshairs' (I'm calling everything 'crosshairs' which the TGP used to point at and mark a target, regardless of their actual symbology) of the TGP to a different point on the ground, and the TGP will now look only at that point. (In DCS you can go into Options -> F/A-18C and set a checkmark to allow the TDC to move without pressing it. This can make it easier to control the crosshairs. (If your TDC is an actual joystick [Thrustmaster Warthog Throttle HOTAS, et al] you can also set curves to move the TDC crosshairs slower).

When the TGP first looks at the ground, the crosshairs will be the Designated Target Diamond, but that is the only time you will see that, because as soon as you start to move the crosshairs or actually mark a target the diamond will change to different symbology, util you change Target Points, when the diamond will return.

As soon as you move the crosshairs with the TDC, the diamond is gone and you have actual crosshairs aka the Reticle. The Reticle crosshair are always ground stabilized, which means the move through TDC motion relative to where they are pointing at the ground, and disregard the movement of the aircraft, for as long as the camera is within the gimbal limits.

Depending on what kind of target you wish to attack, you will select a Reticle accordingly. If for example you intend to drop a GBU onto a bunker, you use the TDC to put the crosshairs over the bunker, where you wish the bomb to hit, and press the Sensor Control Switch toward the DDI where the TGP is being displayed. This will change the crosshairs to the Area Track Reticle (the crosshairs will get get noticeably longer). When your aim is as you wish, press the TDC to designate that point as the Area Target, and the crosshairs will close in to the center leaving only the exact crossing point open. You may now deliver your weapon of choice within the requirements and limits of the delivery of said weapon.

If your target is a vehicle, press the SCS again toward the DDI to change the Reticle to Point Track Reticle (the two upright lines). When you press the SCS the TGP will try to sweeten the aim to put the target vehicle exactly in the middle of the uprights. If the aim is as you wish, deploy your weapon within the constraints of the weapon's requirements.

In both cases, once Area or Point Tracking is selected, you can no longer slew the crosshairs to further sweeten your aim or choose a different target. You can cycle past Point Track mode back to snowplow mode and adjust your aim from there and continue as per the above.

I don't personally use the Offset Cursor, so I don't have any experience with that. I get along fine without it.

If you have any questions, feel free to ask. Happy hunting 

 

I'm fairly confident that's not how it work actually in DCS (Open Beta up to date 22/01/2022).

[Captain Orso]

On 1/22/2022 at 3:14 PM, Hulkbust44 said:

 

 

That's not true. ATFLIR and LITENING actually do have different logic. First off, terminology. The LITENING has INR, AREA and point track. ATFLIR has INR, SCENE, and AUTO track.

Area can not be slewed, but SCENE can. Each time SCENE stabilizes after slewing, the target designation is updated.

If you were to TDC depress with an AREA track I'm pretty sure the offset cursor would appear.

AREA, SCENE, PTK, and AUTO should update the designation automatically. TDC depress is needed to designate a point in INR. I also believe that in DCS if you were updating the designation via a different source and castle to the FLIR, you would need to depress for FLIR to be the driving sensor.

ATFLIR in point track will continue to extrapolate the target position when masked.

ATFLIR zoom and FOV is all on the radar elevation control.

 

So the difference between what I wrote and what you are stating is 

1) that you can move the Reticle in "SCENE" mode, and

2) the differences in the names of the modes.

I'm sorry if I've confused anyone. My intent was the opposite.

I described how each mode works specifically to not confuse with the different names for essentially the exact same thing, to not confuse someone with less important points, who is trying to learn how it works.

[Bacab]

Quote

Depending on what kind of target you wish to attack, you will select a Reticle accordingly. If for example you intend to drop a GBU onto a bunker, you use the TDC to put the crosshairs over the bunker, where you wish the bomb to hit, and press the Sensor Control Switch toward the DDI where the TGP is being displayed. This will change the crosshairs to the Area Track Reticle (the crosshairs will get get noticeably longer). When your aim is as you wish, press the TDC to designate that point as the Area Target, and the crosshairs will close in to the center leaving only the exact crossing point open. You may now deliver your weapon of choice within the requirements and limits of the delivery of said weapon.

Having the TGP in either AREA TRACK (Litening) or SCENE (ATFLIR) mode should be enough : you shouldn't need to press the TDC to designate. However if you are in SCENE mode with the Litening then you definitely need to press the TDC in order to designate the reticule (if you prefer this name) as you target point. At least this is what I've experienced but I would like to be sure, hence why I opened this topic.

This is the main difference between the two pods in my opinion : the SCENE mode with the Litening you have to depress the TDC to designate while it's not necessary with the ATFLIR in SCENE mode. Currently the SCENE mode and the AREA Track mode of the Litening both behaves similarly except for the inability to move the reticule in AREA TRACK. I'm not sure that's correct IRL : I assume the SCENE mode of the Litening is a ground stabilized INR mode however it seems a bit too insensible to drift (in DCS) if that's the case.

Quote

In the actual F/A-18 if you press the TDC you can move the 'crosshairs' (I'm calling everything 'crosshairs' which the TGP used to point at and mark a target, regardless of their actual symbology) of the TGP to a different point on the ground, and the TGP will now look only at that point. (In DCS you can go into Options -> F/A-18C and set a checkmark to allow the TDC to move without pressing it. This can make it easier to control the crosshairs. (If your TDC is an actual joystick [Thrustmaster Warthog Throttle HOTAS, et al] you can also set curves to move the TDC crosshairs slower).

Currently it's not working this way : I tried unchecking and checking the realistic TDC slew option but it didn't change its behaviour while using the TGP. It did change its behaviour when the TDC is allocated to the radar though.

Quote

As soon as you move the crosshairs with the TDC, the diamond is gone and you have actual crosshairs aka the Reticle. The Reticle crosshair are always ground stabilized, which means the move through TDC motion relative to where they are pointing at the ground, and disregard the movement of the aircraft, for as long as the camera is within the gimbal limits.

Maybe I'm wrong and I'm unwilling to test it now because it's a bit late but that's not always correct I think : if you undesignate once while in SCENE mode with the ATFLIR then the pod revert to INR and the cursor is no longer ground stabilised.

Quote

When the TGP first looks at the ground, the crosshairs will be the Designated Target Diamond, but that is the only time you will see that, because as soon as you start to move the crosshairs or actually mark a target the diamond will change to different symbology, util you change Target Points, when the diamond will return.
As soon as you move the crosshairs with the TDC, the diamond is gone and you have actual crosshairs aka the Reticle.

The diamond is visible with the Litening pod if both the reticule and the target point are at the same spot in SCENE mode. With the ATFLIR it's visible in SCENE mode when the pod has not yet locked the picture and in Designation mode.

Quote

If you were to TDC depress with an AREA track I'm pretty sure the offset cursor would appear.

Currently I have been unable to see the offset cursor : It might have been removed following the controversy about it's real world function VS the way it worked in DCS.

Edited January 23, 2022 by Bacab

[Captain Orso]

I have the TDC set to realistic in Options. I've tested both the TGP and the ATFLIR.

Management Summary

Offset does not work on either pod. You can only offset in Point Track, ie when targeting a vehicle, but nothing I tried could get the offset to target anything.

With the offset crosshairs active, the TDC does not use the curves I have defined for the TDC, which makes selecting a different target exceedingly difficult.

Aside from the different zoom modes and buttons used, the only thing I noted to be different in targeting is that on the ATFLIR you start in a kind of dummy mode. You have the diamond reticle, but you cannot slew it with TDC. You must first change the mode to ... whatever by SCS toward the DDI with ATFLIR displayed to the the moveable crosshairs.

TDC Press  does not mark a target. Put the crosshairs over the target and SCS to select the targeting mode; that's it.

On 1/23/2022 at 10:16 PM, Bacab said:

Having the TGP in either AREA TRACK (Litening) or SCENE (ATFLIR) mode should be enough : you shouldn't need to press the TDC to designate. However if you are in SCENE mode with the Litening then you definitely need to press the TDC in order to designate the reticule (if you prefer this name) as you target point. At least this is what I've experienced but I would like to be sure, hence why I opened this topic.

Cannot confirm. TDC press did nothing discernable in my tests.

On 1/23/2022 at 10:16 PM, Bacab said:

This is the main difference between the two pods in my opinion : the SCENE mode with the Litening you have to depress the TDC to designate while it's not necessary with the ATFLIR in SCENE mode. Currently the SCENE mode and the AREA Track mode of the Litening both behaves similarly except for the inability to move the reticule in AREA TRACK. I'm not sure that's correct IRL : I assume the SCENE mode of the Litening is a ground stabilized INR mode however it seems a bit too insensible to drift (in DCS) if that's the case.

I have RDC realistic set. I could not slew in SCENE mode.

On 1/23/2022 at 10:16 PM, Bacab said:

Currently it's not working this way : I tried unchecking and checking the realistic TDC slew option but it didn't change its behaviour while using the TGP. It did change its behaviour when the TDC is allocated to the radar though.

Maybe I'm wrong and I'm unwilling to test it now because it's a bit late but that's not always correct I think : if you undesignate once while in SCENE mode with the ATFLIR then the pod revert to INR and the cursor is no longer ground stabilised.

I didn't try this. If it does this, I'd never do it anyway. Nothing worse than an out of control crosshair.

On 1/23/2022 at 10:16 PM, Bacab said:

The diamond is visible with the Litening pod if both the reticule and the target point are at the same spot in SCENE mode. With the ATFLIR it's visible in SCENE mode when the pod has not yet locked the picture and in Designation mode.

Currently I have been unable to see the offset cursor : It might have been removed following the controversy about it's real world function VS the way it worked in DCS.

 

Offset crosshairs can only be put into play from Point Track/vehicle track mode, but do nothing that I could discover. Pressing TDC with the offset crosshairs off target do nothing that I can recognize.