Jump to content

Trim issue


Pilpoil65
Go to solution Solved by sLYFa,

Recommended Posts

In the Hind I found that the trim doesn't behave as it is suppose to when compared to an other helicopter like the Mi-8. It seems that after trimming, a second input is added over the position of the stick. It gives the helo a really bizarre feel when flying around I find. I made a video showing the issue as well as my trim settings in the menu to demonstrate that the issue isn't caused by me. Thank you. 

 

 

Link to comment
Share on other sites

59 minutes ago, Pilpoil65 said:

In the Hind I found that the trim doesn't behave as it is suppose to when compared to an other helicopter like the Mi-8. It seems that after trimming, a second input is added over the position of the stick. It gives the helo a really bizarre feel when flying around I find. I made a video showing the issue as well as my trim settings in the menu to demonstrate that the issue isn't caused by me. Thank you. 

 

 

I experienced this on release. I don't any more. I keep holding/releasing the trim button when flying, I don't click it, if you get my drift. 

But I don't experience this anymore. I have issues in the newly released free UH-60 module though. 

I USE an MS FFB2 stick. 

EDIT: My point being, do FFB users and non-FFB users experience this differently? 


Edited by MAXsenna
Link to comment
Share on other sites

38 minutes ago, MAXsenna said:

I experienced this on release. I don't any more. I keep holding/releasing the trim button when flying, I don't click it, if you get my drift. 

But I don't experience this anymore. I have issues in the newly released free UH-60 module though. 

I USE an MS FFB2 stick. 

EDIT: My point being, do FFB users and non-FFB users experience this differently? 

 

Holding the trim button, manoeuvring and then releasing seems to work. But, I'm pretty sure that it is not supposed to be working in such a way. I am not using a FFB joystick.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Holding the trim button, manoeuvring and then releasing seems to work. But, I'm pretty sure that it is not supposed to be working in such a way. I am not using a FFB joystick.
I'm not a RL pilot, but I learned that this is the correct way in the Ka-50. As far as I've read, this can be done in any heli. And that it depends of the "style"/preferences of the pilot. But I wouldn't know until I finally fulfil my dreams and try it for myself in the real world.

Sent from my MAR-LX1A using Tapatalk

Link to comment
Share on other sites

So everything is working as intended in the Hind ? Really seems strange that the only to trim without getting a double input is by holding in the trim button. I am aware the Ka-50 works in such a way, but it relies much more on the autopilot I feel.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

9 hours ago, Pilpoil65 said:

Holding the trim button, manoeuvring and then releasing seems to work. But, I'm pretty sure that it is not supposed to be working in such a way. I am not using a FFB joystick.

Yes it is. Even in Huey. You can move the stick without holding trim release, but then you would be fighting springs all the time.

In Hind, output to rotor is result between what is AP doing and your stick position. When you press trim release, AP is reset, changing result output.

Editted to add: you can get away with clciking, but you need to do it so often, it's just easier to hold down. 

Listen how much he is clicking, he might as well just hold it (recorded by IRL UH60 pilot who says he basically holds trim release all the time, except when established on route)

 


Edited by admiki
  • Like 1
Link to comment
Share on other sites

1 hour ago, Pilpoil65 said:

I guess I was just confused because as we see in my video, after trimming the helicopter moves more again, but if everyone says it's that way then it is.

Consider it like this. You are flying without trim release. You move cyclic to a new position and it wants to get back to it's trimmed position. You are fighting those springs. Now, you press trim release and that force you were fighting is now gone. It will move slightly while you adjust your muscles to new requirement. 

I do think that ED overdid it slightly, but it is what it is.

  • Like 2
Link to comment
Share on other sites

I have issue with mi24 trim. It doesn't behave same as mi-8 trim. Mi-8 has perfect trim. Mi-24 doesn't trim to "click" position but it adds a little bit more, and sometimes it does that and sometimes not, not sure any more, at lower speeds it seems ok, but at higher speeds it adds more, maybe. Anyway it is not same as mi-8 trim. It might be how much does the program allow controls to be off center when returning to center , who knows. I am not happy with mi-24 trim. 

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Am 22.1.2022 um 22:10 schrieb Pilpoil65:

In the Hind I found that the trim doesn't behave as it is suppose to when compared to an other helicopter like the Mi-8. It seems that after trimming, a second input is added over the position of the stick. It gives the helo a really bizarre feel when flying around I find. I made a video showing the issue as well as my trim settings in the menu to demonstrate that the issue isn't caused by me. Thank you. 

You are very correct in your analysis imo.
To ease your mind this actually has been reported several times and in relation with other issues on top where it tends to stack up to the trimlock/release lock issue.

Unfortunately as there is no proper bugtracker for anything Eagle and due to their "unique" way how they react and treat bug-reports, all those mostly have become part of a re-enactment of an Ian M. Bainks novel instead of merging the reports.

Which is a shame because I seem to remember that there was some oneliner down-com in there somwhere acknowledging the issue (because once again, no standardization of anything anywhere) due to a concept issue in the code approach for this module (because when there is no practices, no mandatory documentation.. anything seemingly gets started from scratch every single time) and they would have to "rethink", despite a reliable and live.market tested keylog for a comparable module (in this functionality in-module and out-product) of the very same category by the very same module provider and franchise holder and -coordinator being in existence to iterate on and progress forward in concept and coding (imagine a SciFi Bridgecrew conference room picture here please).

It seems from an outside perspective that the peripheral device layer (standard joysticks with central position return springs) and the thus present in-module logic (cyclic with motor accentuators / servos to arrest cyclic position to trimstate with two different input  systems, aka the APdampener channels and the manual inputs in the servos) of how to fidelically represent the airframe and its systems in the module seem to briefly fight each other. 
They may even be somewhat grey area mixed in coding instead of being strictly separated into different spheres, who knows.
Which is why we have to endlessly retrim especially with median to average peripherals until we achieve a neutral or desired trimstate without the "input overflow" - which you actually described far more suitable as "added input".

That this is not more widespread in reporting has more to to with <see very above> than anything else - and those contributing are in consequence often less likely to actually consider and/or understand the complete context.

So we can only hope that at some point this will be mitigated by either being adressed or by some semblance of standardization and practices slowly gaining a foothold (see fe missiles.. in intent at least and at last).

 


Edited by rogorogo
  • Like 2
Link to comment
Share on other sites

4 hours ago, zulubravo said:

I have issue with mi24 trim. It doesn't behave same as mi-8 trim. Mi-8 has perfect trim. Mi-24 doesn't trim to "click" position but it adds a little bit more, and sometimes it does that and sometimes not, not sure any more, at lower speeds it seems ok, but at higher speeds it adds more, maybe. Anyway it is not same as mi-8 trim. It might be how much does the program allow controls to be off center when returning to center , who knows. I am not happy with mi-24 trim. 

This is the exact thing I was trying to illustrate in my video !

Link to comment
Share on other sites

  • Solution

There are no problems with any control layers or any "concept issues in the code". There is a fundamental difference in how the AP behaves in the Hip and the Hind. In the Mi-8, the AP servos are unaffected by trim while in the Mi-24 they are reset to zero whenever the trim button is pushed. So imagine you are hovering and just found the sweet spot for the cyclic. Before you trim, your total input is your stick position+whatever the AP puts in (which can be up to 20% IIRC). When you press the trim button, the AP input is "taken away" and your total input is not what it was before trimming, even without moving the stick. That's why it is important to trim a lot and thus minimize AP input, especially when transitioning from/to hover.

OPs video showcases that. If you look at the AP indicator in the top right corner, you will see that there is both pitch and roll input from the AP . As the trim button is pressed, AP inputs return to zero, changing the total control input.

Now one can assume that this behavior is exacerbated by the AP inputs being too large in the first place but thats hard to tell without knowing exactly how the AP works (which ED should and we have to rely on them getting it right). There are issues with the FM in general though, most prominently the uncommanded pitch oscillations at approx. 120-150 kph (SAU on or off) and IIRC ED stated that the FM and AP will get revisited during EA. But don't expect the trimming behavior to be the same as in the Hip/Huey.

  • Like 1
  • Thanks 2

i5-8600k @4.9Ghz, 2080ti , 32GB@2666Mhz, 512GB SSD

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Interesting read !!!

That sounds like a RL Mi 24 Hind pilot would experience the same AP "kicks" after pressing the trim button. I don't buy that. Your post is a very good explanation of the AP problem but in it's current state the Hind is not combat ready, nor would it be IRL if the AP kicks the aircraft around after a simple trim button press. 

The systems may be not exactely the same, the AP works different but at the end of the day a Hind will fly like a Hip, like a Huey, like a Blackshark (with Flight Director on).

 

An unintended and very dangerous "kick" of the AP after trimming the aircraft is plain wrong and needs to be fixed. 


Edited by River
  • Like 1
Link to comment
Share on other sites

Maybe they just have to set the AP Input AND the Cyclic Input back to zero after a trim press. 

In your post you write that the AP input is taken away when we press trim. So the Cyclic input is still present and makes the Helicopter overshoot the trim spot all the time.

More frequent trimming gives much smaller trim steps, gives us smaller Cyclic input leftovers and makes for smoother trimming / flying.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

1 hour ago, River said:

Interesting read !!!

That sounds like a RL Mi 24 Hind pilot would experience the same AP "kicks" after pressing the trim button. I don't buy that. Your post is a very good explanation of the AP problem but in it's current state the Hind is not combat ready, nor would it be IRL if the AP kicks the aircraft around after a simple trim button press. 

The systems may be not exactely the same, the AP works different but at the end of the day a Hind will fly like a Hip, like a Huey, like a Blackshark (with Flight Director on).

 

An unintended and very dangerous "kick" of the AP after trimming the aircraft is plain wrong and needs to be fixed. 

 

Or you fly it like you fly Blackshark or Blackhawk with FPS system ON, hold the trim until you get into position you want (both IRL Hind and Hawk pilot says they fly it like that).


Edited by admiki
Link to comment
Share on other sites

2 hours ago, River said:

Interesting read !!!

That sounds like a RL Mi 24 Hind pilot would experience the same AP "kicks" after pressing the trim button. I don't buy that. Your post is a very good explanation of the AP problem but in it's current state the Hind is not combat ready, nor would it be IRL if the AP kicks the aircraft around after a simple trim button press. 

The systems may be not exactely the same, the AP works different but at the end of the day a Hind will fly like a Hip, like a Huey, like a Blackshark (with Flight Director on).

 

An unintended and very dangerous "kick" of the AP after trimming the aircraft is plain wrong and needs to be fixed. 

 

You don’t have to buy it, but no flying machine however military is perfect and pilots are trained to deal with this. It’s hardly a kick especially if you trim a lot and as Admiki said, hold the trim button so it zeros out and then move into position, when releasing AP holds new position

  • Like 1

Black Shark Den Squadron Member: We are open to new recruits, click here to check us out or apply to join! https://blacksharkden.com

E3FFFC01-584A-411C-8AFB-B02A23157EB6.jpeg

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Create an account or sign in to comment

You need to be a member in order to leave a comment

Create an account

Sign up for a new account in our community. It's easy!

Register a new account

Sign in

Already have an account? Sign in here.

Sign In Now
  • Recently Browsing   0 members

    • No registered users viewing this page.
×
×
  • Create New...