Future of DCS complex modules, thoughts and opinions

[Devil 505]

So I would like to hear every ones thoughts on the subject.  I have been flying all of ED's sims since the beginning as well as following their road maps.  They never cease to deliver the finest product in the industry.  With that said, it looks we are getting close to the end of the road with everything that has been on a road map.  I have kept notes over the years with things they have specifically said. 

I think it is safe to say the future holds the F-4, AH-1W Cobra, and possibly the Mig-29A.  Beyond that, what do you think ED will be interested in doing after these 3?  These are not speculations either.  A recent interview confirmed the Phantom is closer to release than many know and then we had the teaser with the Phantom gun reticle in the 2022 Beyond video.  They have already stated they are doing the Cobra and they hope to do the Mig.  

This being said, what do you think ED will turn towards after these?  Personally, I hope to see ED do the A-1H Skyradier.  I would also like to see the WW2 modules continue to grow.  I think the next holy s_it aircraft they could make would have to be a heavy WW2 bomber.  I will not get into the dispute of map size or multiplayer because I do not think there is a valid argument there to say it could not be done, but I do believe ED has the technology and professionals to make this happen.  There is more than enough desire for a B-17 module or B-25 with us WW2 pilots.  Especially since my Grandfather led 2 B-17 squadrons during the war.  

Before anyone says it, yes, lets let them make the other 3 modules before speculating more, however I believe this is a good starting point for ideas going into the future.  The F-4 is coming soon I feel, which leave a few years left for the other 2 by ED.  Thoughts or opinions on what they should tackle next?  I know the Tornado was not on the list per an interview with ED.  A lot of people have been asking for the F-111.  Curious to hear thoughts on this one.  

[Rudel_chw]

46 minutes ago, Devil 505 said:

Thoughts or opinions on what they should tackle next? 

I’d love if they would do the Me-262, it has the advantage of being single seater and there proper documentation. I dont think they would do a big bomber anytime soon, too many crew cockpits to do, for a slow and unmanouverable aircraft .. it fails to catch my attention, it’s more feasible a flyable C-47.

[Dragon1-1]

Hard to say, but I wouldn't expect anything with more than two engines. The F-111 is quite possible, since we've now got side by side multicrew. Other than that, with the immense number of 3rd party projects currently underway, high-profile aircraft are starting to run a bit dry. The A-1 would certainly be a nice addition to the roster, they could also make a Blackhawk. An early Super Hornet could become a possibility by then, as well. A full fidelity F-15C seems like it would sell, despite concerns about a fighter confined largely to AA, even if it could carry and drop bombs (US Eaglejet drivers didn't train for this, but Israeli ones did). Or they could take an interest in the Century series, and do something like F-104 or F-100. 

I'd say, between the pandemic, climate and the recent political tensions, it's hard to speculate on something that far off into the future.

[Paladin1cd]

Dragon I think I'd probably buy every one of those. 

[Cathnan]

That's a really hard guess. I think it's likely they will eventually do the F-104. I know I would love to see it and I think there are more who would do too. Also I can imagine the Tornado. One thing that would seem possible age wise but I can't judge because of possible confidentiality is the F-117. I'm not sure however if a stealth bomber would really have it's place as a player module in DCS. It would fit the high profile criteria tho.

[Devil 505]

1 hour ago, Rudel_chw said:

I’d love if they would do the Me-262, it has the advantage of being single seater and there proper documentation. I dont think they would do a big bomber anytime soon, too many crew cockpits to do, for a slow and unmanouverable aircraft .. it fails to catch my attention, it’s more feasible a flyable C-47.

LOL! I have scene the C-47 teaser at the end of the last ED Mossie Rocket video.  Cannot wait! 

[Devil 505]

I remember an interview last year or maybe the year before where it was mentioned Century Series aircraft such as the F-104 or F-100 were not in the cards for ED at the time.  I remember when they also said they did not want to do a cargo module and then saw the overwhelming desire for one so now we are getting one (I strongly believe it is the C-47).  This is why I love ED, they actually listen to what their customers want, so even though it was said Century Series was out for now, I could possibly see renewed interest down the road.

That being said, next to the Sandy, I would absolutely love to see ED do an F-105 D,F, or G model.  I think this would be a good one where they could combine one module into a multivariant, although it would cost more, I would gladly pay.  The single seater D (Thunderchief) and the two seater G (Wild Weasel) would be awesome! I see more Vietnam oriented aircraft in the future, especially from 3rd party devs.

2 hours ago, Dragon1-1 said:

full fidelity F-15C seems like it would sell

I agree with Dragon on this one.  It they wanted to complete the full fidelity Air Force line, an F-15C is logical. I also remember them saying in an interview that it was unlikely since it was in fact primarily air to air and Razbam was doing the Strike Eagle.  Still, this would be a seller for a lot of people I believe, especially with how popular the simple one is in game now.  

I wont tackle to the red force Russian aircraft.  That seems to be beating a dead horse.  I think we all are aware at this point getting cooperation and documentation is a killer for most of these aircraft, which stinks.  We can only hope for better results down the road.

I would love to see some AIrbus/Aerospatiale/American Eurocopter Helos make the scene.  Not sure if ED would be interested in those, but it has always been a dream of mine to see the Panther AS565 Panther and SA 330 Puma in a combat sim at the fidelity ED puts out.  A lot of roles and countries for these two Helos to take part in.

[upyr1]

RIght now here is my top module wish list 

Century serise especially the Thud and Hun

f9f Panther, F-84, F-80, (anything else from the Korean eara)

F-111, A-1, Ah-1

[Nexus-6]

An F-100 would be great. So would a late war P-38.

[Exorcet]

There is no shortage of aircraft for ED and the other developers to choose from. That makes predicting what's next difficult, especially if ED continue to go plane by plane and don't focus on a theater/conflict/era.

All I can say is that barring some kind of issue with classified or hard to obtain information, the F-15C seems like low hanging fruit. A dedicated modernish single seat air superior fighter would be great. While we do have the EF-2000 to look forward to, that doesn't carry both Sparrows and AMRAAM and doesn't make sense in a Gulf War scenario. The Eagle would just add so much. WWII is still missing some iconic planes like the P-38 and pretty much all of the Soviet side, and if the Fw-190 is anything to go by, variants of existing planes provide even more options. Personally I'd like to eventually get an earlier Razorback Mustang along with the H model. A large library of WWII planes would provide a lot choice for mission builders and players, allowing for lots of variations in gameplay and tweaking of difficulty.

Moving on to more modern aircraft, MiG's and Sukhois are in demand despite the problems making them difficult to simulate. The MiG-29 is hopefully coming. I'd love a Flanker to go with it. The Foxbat and Foxhound would also be amazing planes to fly, hopefully the defection of the former makes at least an early model possible. More variations of the MiG-21 would also be great, from true Vietnam types to modernized versions with active missiles. Even the J-7 would be a nice AI plane to round out China's fighter roster. Speaking of China, it would be nice to get their carrier. The same goes for pretty much any nation except the US.

[Dragon1-1]

There's no shortage of aircraft, however the pool of well known aircraft is shrinking fast. If you look at the old flight simulators, the F-15C and the F/A-18E are the only ones remotely likely to appear as DCS modules. Mi-28 (from Apache vs. Havoc) and Su-27 are currently in Russian service, so they're sensitive info, although at one point it was suggested Su-27S wasn't out of reach (in which case they should absolutely do it as a tribute to Flanker, if nothing else). F-117 is a one trick pony that's probably classified to hell and back. F-22 is way, way too advanced and the Commanche, as cool as it would have been, ended up canceled.

The Su-25A is another good option, after they finish up the Hind. It's basically a fixed wing Hind-P, with the same gun, same gunsight, similar armament (it trades SACLOS for basic laser guidance) and similar avionics. It wouldn't be nearly as much of a hit as the F-15C would, but it'd likely build up a fanbase, and it'd be easier to develop, as its avionics are on the same level of complexity as the Hind's.

I wouldn't expect a MiG-25. Even if the info is out there, it's too much of a one trick pony. If they had reservation about F-15 for being too AA focused, well, the MiG-25 is many times worse about it, with its only uses being high speed interception and Blackbird-like recon flights. 

To sum it up: most likely are the F-15C, Su-25, UH-60. Second most likely are F/A-18E, F-104G, F-111 and Su-27S. It's highly likely that at least one of those will be picked up by a 3rd party in the interim, too.

[upyr1]

15 hours ago, Nexus-6 said:

An F-100 would be great. So would a late war P-38.

I would love the hun. If we could get the F-100F Wild weasel that would be awesome though not as awesome as the 105F Weasel.

[DaWu]

I am not sure how they plan to make money in 2-3 years. All the big modules will be out. The last doable modules with very big interest are f15 and EF. 
 

the f4 might sell some but not in f16/f15/f18 ranges. They will need to push for a f22 somehow

[Rudel_chw]

38 minutes ago, DaWu said:

the f4 might sell some but not in f16/f15/f18 ranges

I wonder where you got the statistic data to backup that presumption 

[Furiz]

9 hours ago, Rudel_chw said:

I wonder where you got the statistic data to backup that presumption 

No one has the numbers but ED,

 

What we can do is look at what is being played the most on MP servers, Viper and Hornet, then tomcat and A-10 and then the rest, when I see F-5 I fly close and screenshot cause that ain't happening very often,

the impression you get here on the forums might be wrong, there are 10ish people constantly talking about F-4, cold war, and that's it, so you might think it would be the best seller, but in fact modern jets sell the most.

Also check forum activity, Viper and Hornet section, there's someone always writing something, while F-5 for example 1 post 12 hrs ago and the rest a week old posts, so activity there is very low.

F-86 there is 1 post 21 hrs ago rest if from december 2021... (currently, it might change)

 

You tube is full of modern jet videos, GS = mostly modern dogfights, very rarely cold war birds

GR is doing everything

Spudknocker as far as I see modern jets mostly

Red Kite modern jets

 

That's what I see in the community,

Based on that modern jets are what sells the most and what people want the most.

 

but I don't have the numbers so I can't say I'm not wrong.

Edited January 25, 2022 by Furiz

[WobblyFlops]

On 1/24/2022 at 6:20 AM, Exorcet said:

All I can say is that barring some kind of issue with classified or hard to obtain information, the F-15C seems like low hanging fruit.

ED aren't interested in the C model because it's only air to air and that may negatively impact sales and Razbam are making an E, which if you squint enough can be used as somewhat of a stand in for the C. In BFM maybe less so but for BVR certainly.

 

21 hours ago, Dragon1-1 said:

There's no shortage of aircraft, however the pool of well known aircraft is shrinking fast.

I heavily disagree with that. The aforementioned F-111 is just the tip of the iceberg. There are plenty of iconic European aircraft like the Tornado, Jaguar, Buccaneer, EEL, Super Etendard just to name a few. And if they change their mind about the Century Series, there are a ton of options, ranging from the Hun, the Thud, the aforementioned 104 and maybe even the Six but that's very unlikely. (Bruce Gordon would be an incredible SME for the 106 and it's completely unclassified at this point). For WW 2, a P-61 would be a pretty cool choice and of course the almost confirmed Hellcat.

 

All these projects could last for the next 20 years. And in the far future, if DCS is still kicking in some form (which isn't exactly unlikely considering that ED has been the only combat sim developer consistently staying alive in the last 20 years) a lot of things become possible. More Cold War era Soviet jets, upgraded blocks, Super Hornet, and so on.

[DaWu]

10 hours ago, Rudel_chw said:

I wonder where you got the statistic data to backup that presumption 

Common sense and logic

[Northstar98]

2 minutes ago, DaWu said:

Common sense and logic

Translation: unjustified assumption

[Exorcet]

  

23 hours ago, Dragon1-1 said:

There's no shortage of aircraft, however the pool of well known aircraft is shrinking fast.

I think this is overstated. The teen series is probably the most popular set of aircraft, certainly, perhaps with a few MiGs/Sukhois after that. However a lot of the aircraft trailing those in popularity have pretty devoted followings and I feel like the sim aviation community has its fair share of members with a wide field of interest when it comes to aircraft. A lot of the time when I see people praise the Viggen it seems they were introduced to it through DCS. I can see the same happening for a lot of other planes.

 

DCS has only touched half of WWII, has done almost nothing with Vietnam, is missing all but the two major fighters from Korea, has nothing from WWI, has only a couple of true 80's aircraft, doesn't have specific Gulf War variations, etc. I'm sure you could pull quite a bit of popular content from any of those missing modules. Maybe, maybe it will take a bit more effort, like building up a cohesive lineup of modules including a tailor made map. Some people really want that though, so it might not even be a downside.

 

1 hour ago, WobblyFlops said:

ED aren't interested in the C model because it's only air to air and that may negatively impact sales and Razbam are making an E, which if you squint enough can be used as somewhat of a stand in for the C. In BFM maybe less so but for BVR certainly.

I've heard that reasoning, but I can't say I agree. AA only won't stop it from selling, nor is it even accurate given that it can carry as many bombs as the F-16/18. The C Eagle has just about everything to offer than the Tomcat does minus a second seat and carrier operations. The E is also totally safe being a heavier ground attack focused variant with specialized equipment that the C doesn't get or doesn't want (in the air to air role). We have two Fw-190's, two C-101, two L-39, two F-14, a second Harrier as a possibility, and how many people keep asking for other F-16's/F-18? Variants of the same plane not only seem to be able to coexist, I think they would greatly enhance DCS's lineup of modules.

[DaWu]

2 hours ago, WobblyFlops said:

 

I heavily disagree with that. The aforementioned F-111 is just the tip of the iceberg. There are plenty of iconic European aircraft like the Tornado, Jaguar, Buccaneer, EEL, Super Etendard just to name a few. And if they change their mind about the Century Series, there are a ton of options, ranging from the Hun, the Thud, the aforementioned 104 and maybe even the Six but that's very unlikely. (Bruce Gordon would be an incredible SME for the 106 and it's completely unclassified at this point). For WW 2, a P-61 would be a pretty cool choice and of course the almost confirmed Hellcat.

I fly sims for 30years and most of these planes are unknown to me. And I bet it’s the same for most. You heavily over expactate interest in such airframes

[MAXsenna]

17 minutes ago, DaWu said:

I fly sims for 30years and most of these planes are unknown to me. And I bet it’s the same for most. You heavily over expactate interest in such airframes

Well, then you were into flightsims and not aviation, and by change just proved one of @Exorcet's points.

So w're all good.  

[Germane]

vor 3 Stunden schrieb Furiz:

 

Also check forum activity, Viper and Hornet section, there's someone always writing something, while F-5 for example 1 post 12 hrs ago and the rest a week old posts, so activity there is very low.

F-86 there is 1 post 21 hrs ago rest if from december 2021... (currently, it might change)

Well, the reason for that is not that no one is intersted on the F5 or F-86 but they are old and forgotten modules by ED.

[Furiz]

5 minutes ago, Germane said:

Well, the reason for that is not that no one is intersted on the F5 or F-86 but they are old and forgotten modules by ED.

Your logic is not sound:P

 

If they were so popular ED would not forget about them.

[Northstar98]

On 1/25/2022 at 10:02 AM, Furiz said:

No one has the numbers but ED,

What we can do is look at what is being played the most on MP servers, Viper and Hornet, then tomcat and A-10 and then the rest, when I see F-5 I fly close and screenshot cause that ain't happening very often,

the impression you get here on the forums might be wrong, there are 10ish people constantly talking about F-4, cold war, and that's it, so you might think it would be the best seller, but in fact modern jets sell the most.

So you don't know the numbers, but you know for a fact what the numbers are based on multiplayer, despite ED stating that the majority is single player...

And this is heavily biased depending on what severs you frequently visit - somehow I doubt you're going through every one.

Similarly if I only play on Enigma, it will skew much more towards Cold War.

On 1/25/2022 at 10:02 AM, Furiz said:

Also check forum activity, Viper and Hornet section, there's someone always writing something, while F-5 for example 1 post 12 hrs ago and the rest a week old posts, so activity there is very low.

But both the F-16 and F/A-18 are more recent, are still in development and are more complicated, so of course they have more bug reports and people asking questions.

The F-5E is more complete, major issues are largely outstanding issues from way back.

It's simpler so less people are asking questions, and the most talk is of a potentially/wished for rework.

On 1/25/2022 at 10:02 AM, Furiz said:

F-86 there is 1 post 21 hrs ago rest if from december 2021... (currently, it might change)

Yes, mostly an oustanding issue (gunsight that doesn't work correctly). Again, simpler aircraft that hasn't had any new additions for years (so less people asking questions).

And I'm not surprised that the early cold war isn't very popular - it's the least fleshed out era by miles. I'd play it a lot more if it was more fleshed out.

On 1/25/2022 at 10:02 AM, Furiz said:

You tube is full of modern jet videos, GS = mostly modern dogfights, very rarely cold war birds

Looking at his last 50 videos (accurate at the time of writing), I count the following (let's say ±5 as I only skimmed them):

• 30 (41%) feature modern aircraft (including the MiG-29S w/ R-77 and MiG-29G)
• 28 (38%) feature Cold War aircraft (including the Mirage 2000 and F-14s).
• 10 (14%) feature WWII aircraft.
• 5 (7%) feature WWI aircraft (though not DCS).

The spread between modern and Cold War is much more equal and I'd hardly call 3% less 'very rarely' in comparison to 'mostly modern dogfights'.

Now you could argue that the current F-14A is modern (it's technically mid 90s (AFAIK), purely owing to the RWR, and late 90s/early 2000s with LANTIRN). Same with the Mirage 2000(90s?), but then I'm including the MiG-29S and MiG-29G, which, in the variants they are depicted as, were introduced during the Cold War (its only R-77 that makes the MiG-29S reaches into the 2000s, and the MiG-29G is identical to the 9-12 MiG-29 in DCS).

On 1/25/2022 at 10:02 AM, Furiz said:

Spudknocker as far as I see modern jets mostly

There are a decent amount of F-14s, some Viggen, I'd say most is modern stuff, but not by an exceptionally huge margin.

EDIT: He just described himself at being "so pysched" at the recent F-4 announcement and that he "can't tell you how excited he is" for it, and described it as "a fantastic development and one of the best jet announcements in DCS World to date".

On 1/25/2022 at 10:02 AM, Furiz said:

Red Kite modern jets

Red Kite typically covers new additions and tutorials for new features, which is mostly focused on more modern aircraft (our current Cold War aircraft are much older as far as release goes, and are largely feature complete), because they're the ones getting these new additions.

The only real exception is the Tomcat, which recently had Jester LANTIRN and the Forrestal.

On 1/25/2022 at 10:02 AM, Furiz said:

That's what I see in the community,

Based on that modern jets are what sells the most and what people want the most.

Well, right now in DCS WW2 is the most fleshed out era and has the most content in terms of dedicated modules, assets and maps, with more on the way.

On 1/25/2022 at 10:02 AM, Furiz said:

but I don't have the numbers so I can't say I'm not wrong.

Well at least there's that...

On 1/25/2022 at 1:31 PM, Furiz said:

Your logic is not sound:P

If they were so popular ED would not forget about them.

Except, ED business model relies on selling new modules - they don't make any money by fixing them, so no, it isn't as simple as that.

Also, you're kinda putting the cart before the horse here...

 

EDIT: Just to add to this, comparing the number of reactions to the announement posts for the Eurofighter and the Phantom it's currently 145:84 in favour of the Eurofighter.

Though something to consider is that the Eurofighter's post has been up since July the 22nd, 2021, whereas the Phantom's has only been up for 2 days at the time of writing.

For the FAQs post for the Eurofighter and the Phantom however, the Phantom beats the Eurofighter 163:72.

Comparing the reactions on hoggit for their respective trailer videos, the Eurofighter's 'Coming Storm' trailer post, amassed 982 upvotes and 472 comments; the Phantom's 'Legends Never Die' trailer post by comparison, has so far amassed 1425 upvotes and 478 comments.

Comparing the trailer videos themselves, at the time of writing (27/01/2022 @ ~ 10:00 UTC), the Eurofighter's trailer is ahead with viewer count (303991 compared to 207442 for the Phantom), both videos however have the same number of likes (13k) and the Eurofighter has more comments (1905 compared to 1488). Bear in mind that the Eurofighter's trailer has been out since July 22nd 2021, the Phantom's trailer hasn't even had it's first week yet, being published only 2 days ago on the 25th of January, and it hasn't had its newsletter yet.

EDIT 2: As of the 29th of January 23:35 UTC, the F-4E's Legends Never Die trailer has surpassed the Eurofighter's Coming Storm trailer in both views (324207 compared to 310161) and likes (17k as opposed to 13k), before it's even had its first week.

So at least comparing the Phantom and Eurofighter, the Cold War community seems to be a lot more significant than you seem to want it to be.

On 1/25/2022 at 1:03 PM, DaWu said:

I fly sims for 30years and most of these planes are unknown to me. And I bet it’s the same for most.

Based on?

Edited January 31, 2022 by Northstar98
grammar

[Furiz]

3 hours ago, Furiz said:

the impression you get here on the forums might be wrong, there are 10ish people constantly talking about F-4, cold war, and that's it, so you might think it would be the best seller

There we go, they emerged.