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Announcing the F-4 Phantom for DCS World!


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35 minutes ago, nighthawk2174 said:

The F-4E at 50% gas and no weapons is at 1.0 T/W and the bis at 50% gas is close to .95 T/W.  Although that obviously will be different if we say make it for 5min of AB at SL.  This would almost certainly favor the F4  As the emergency burner in the bis really eats gas so you'd need more of it in the bis for this setup.

I would agree although it would be more along the lines of early F-15C's as it was introduced the same year, 1976.  Although lets keep in mind both aircraft would be in low numbers for a few more years.   One factor to consider in the F4's favor though would be jammer pods, and my current understanding is that the saphir series of radars would have rather poor CCM performance.  These pods were quite common on the US side but as far as i'm aware jamming equipment was not as common on the soviet side.

There is a Russian forum thread that went in depth into this discussion we could just go and pull their conclusions and user made graphs out as they did have quite a few documents regarding performance of all the jets mentioned. 

 

Example:

F-4E vs МиГ-21бис вираж.GIF

МиГ-23МЛ vs F-4E вираж2.jpg

Awesome! Thanks nighthawk! 

However, something I noticed after cross referencing the above with the source data (I'm pretty sure it's the same data I have) is that the F-4E values are from the SL graphs in the 1F-4E-1 manual while the MiG data is at 1000 m (3028 ft) altitude. The difference between SL and 3 kft performance is pretty small, though, and one can interpolate between plots in the F-4E manual to find the true values which would only drop a little anyway. It doesn't change the conclusion that the MiG-21bis is at a disadvantage against the F-4E in a sustained turn. From the same sources, the F-4E STR data at 10 kft still shows an advantage against the MiG-21bis at 3000 m (9842 ft).

And based on the MiG-23ML plot and the accompanying charts, the dashed line really appears to be the Flogger's maximum AoA limit lift line so anything left of that would be unachievable - I suppose then that these values are calculated rather than flight tested, or maybe a combination of both. It sucks that we only get data up to just past Mach 0.7 for the MiG-23's 16 deg. wing sweep configuration because there's a chance that the turn rate drops as speed increases, just like the Tomcat since the wing sweep is starting to run into wave drag issues at low sweep and high subsonic Mach. However, that is speculation and we won't ever know for sure. 

Another thing I'm not sure of is the F-4E block 35 graphs. The hard wing F-4E plots I have show a significant decrease in STR compared to the slatted F-4E but these ones in your post show a slight advantage. Perhaps it is data extrapolated linearly by simply decreasing the weight from the 1-F4E-1 manual to emulate slatted Block 35 performance? 

Just to nitpick a bit as well: All F-15C serial numbers are from FY1978 and later so in 1976/77, there would only be F-15A's in actual combat. But that's neither here nor there in the context of this conversation.


Edited by SgtPappy
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So if I'm reading the charts right, the F-4E's STR is superior to the -21bis and mostly superior to the -23ML (and by extension MLA) except for relatively low Mach numbers and 16 degree sweep in a very narrow speed range (and that probably comes issues for the -23 as well, since 16 degree was supposedly only for taking off and landing)?

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14 hours ago, Gypsy 1-1 said:

In fact the 23MLA will eat the F-4E alive in pretty much all areas. BVR, WVR and BFM. Heck even our current Mig-21Bis pretty much matches the F-4J's, let alone the E's sustained rates at most altitudes and weights, has better T/W and a better inst. rate. Obviously it will come down to BVR tactics and pilot skill in ACM but with the R-60's alone the Mig's have a huge advantage. A 21-F13 or 23M would be closer matches in both kinematic capability and armament. 

In 1989 a Syrian pilot defected with his Mig-23 to Israel. I don’t know if that was ML, or MLA variant or another. The Israelis tested that Mig-23 is a series of flights alongside an F-16A.
 

While the acceleration of the Mig was impressive, out pacing the F-16, in every other respect it was concluded that the Mig was not designed to dog fight. It was considered inferior to the F-16A and a better match to the F-4E and Mirage III. Already 8 years earlier during the 1st Lebanon war, the Mig-23 (again, I dont know the exact variants) proved to be no match to the Israeli F-16A/B and F-15C in actual dogfights.

The 23 was a good 1970s plane but it’s not like it was a generation leap in performance - more like a moderate increment. It will be a great match for the coming Mirage F.1. I know some people think the Mig-23 was a hot plane and that the MLA variant somehow turned it into a monster, but it just doesn’t have the record to back this up.


Edited by Bozon
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“Mosquitoes fly, but flies don’t Mosquito” :pilotfly:

- Geoffrey de Havilland.

 

... well, he could have said it!

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The only way to settle this is to fight them against each other once they release - and I for one cannot wait to try all of them! I feel as though we finally have a decent 3rd gen cold war lineup - the F-4E, Mirage F1, MiG 23, MiG 21 fights will be very enjoyable!

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26 minutes ago, TLTeo said:

So if I'm reading the charts right, the F-4E's STR is superior to the -21bis and mostly superior to the -23ML (and by extension MLA) except for relatively low Mach numbers and 16 degree sweep in a very narrow speed range (and that probably comes issues for the -23 as well, since 16 degree was supposedly only for taking off and landing)?

I'm not too sure. It's hard to tell because the MiG-23ML's 16 deg. wing sweep stops abruptly around Mach 0.7. So unless the manual says that is the fastest you can go with 16 deg. sweep, then the MiG-23ML has high potential to be better as speed increases but it's impossible to conclude from just that plot.

12 minutes ago, Gypsy 1-1 said:

This is available G over Mach for the ML at 1000m and various wing sweep settings. There are various more relevant charts from said aerodynamics manual.

Do you have an English (or maybe even French) one? I have this manual only in Russian but it's cumbersome to read through and find the right plot so perhaps I have not got there yet. Maybe you can point us in the right direction.

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7 minutes ago, Gypsy 1-1 said:

I have it in Russian and I am fluent, what do you neex specifically?

Below some screenshots with their discription in the file names.
 

Cl_alpha.PNG

Cl_Cd.PNG

FastestTurn.PNG

G_IAS.PNG

G_Mach.PNG

Turntime.PNG

Hey thanks a lot! I think I'll grab these and digest them first. I was most interested in are sustained turn rates at a "combat load" at 16 deg. sweep. What does it say in your 3rd screenshot? I'll try to plug it into google translate in the meantime but I have a feeling you'd be faster than me typing in Cyrillic 😅

Also, I looked through my files and turns out I only have 2 screenshots, not the whole manual! 


Edited by SgtPappy
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13 minutes ago, Gypsy 1-1 said:

Reference the edited post.

The bottom two graphs are with 2x R-23's at 12,7t gross weight.

EDIT: Turn time and radius, 2t of fuel, MAX AB, clean.
 

Turn_parameters.PNG

 

So it appears most of these turn performance graphs do not show the 16 deg. sweep turn rates. Is this because that sweep setting is limited in speed and therefore, 45 deg. is the "normal" maneuver setting? Or is there something I'm missing?

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We really should make ”Phantom vs XXX” topic and move these posts into that. Lots of good info and it would be shame that it gets lost here 👍
 

edit: maybe moderators can help with that?


Edited by divinee
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1 hour ago, divinee said:

We really should make ”Phantom vs XXX” topic and move these posts into that. Lots of good info and it would be shame that it gets lost here 👍
 

edit: maybe moderators can help with that?

 

Yes, it's a good idea. That whole "Know Your Enemy" thing. 🙂

Can't pretend fly as well as you can.

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On 1/30/2022 at 11:50 AM, Victory205 said:

I’ll say! 😉

Somewhere between 1980 and now, the language changed in the USN from “aircraft” to “jet”. The latter was a USAF term, and came across as a bit condescending in the USN, since pilots who flew props and helicopters performed missions far more dangerous than many USAF “jet” pilots. Landing an SH2 on a frigate in a high sea state after an 18 hour day was orders of magnitude more dangerous than flying a C141 to Manila while carefully observing USAF crew rest limitations.

I always got a kick out of the UK “fast jet” moniker, which brought to mind the idea that the RAF at some point in time, spend untold amounts of Royal Treasure in order to purchase “slow jets” for some vague reason. 

I won’t even get to the bizarre vocabulary that cool flight sim jocks have manufactured. Good grief.

Phantom drivers understood the heritage and legacy of their mount, and carried themselves accordingly. The Heatblur Phantom is a welcome addition to a part of aviation history that needs to be highlighted and remembered.

My dad got a ride in an F-4B with VF-14 in '72 off the Kennedy, and to this day it's the most exhilarating thing he ever did. Growing up he always told me about Phantoms, and even though had he been on the Kennedy only 3 years later he could have had a Tomcat ride, he said he'd never change a thing.

When they showed up at the Naval Academy for a tour in '69, their bus parked next to a Phantom that was on display. He always remembered that the Phantom was larger than a Greyhound Bus and it always stuck with him how ridiculous it was that a plane that big was that fast.

I'm just hoping a "J" comes out in time for me to give him a "ride" soon enough, but I know it will probably be well after the Tomcat wraps, the Eurofighter is released, Intruder, and then a few years after that probably.

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VF-11 and VF-31 1988 [WIP]

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1 hour ago, LanceCriminal86 said:

My dad got a ride in an F-4B with VF-14 in '72 off the Kennedy, and to this day it's the most exhilarating thing he ever did. Growing up he always told me about Phantoms, and even though had he been on the Kennedy only 3 years later he could have had a Tomcat ride, he said he'd never change a thing.

When they showed up at the Naval Academy for a tour in '69, their bus parked next to a Phantom that was on display. He always remembered that the Phantom was larger than a Greyhound Bus and it always stuck with him how ridiculous it was that a plane that big was that fast.

I'm just hoping a "J" comes out in time for me to give him a "ride" soon enough, but I know it will probably be well after the Tomcat wraps, the Eurofighter is released, Intruder, and then a few years after that probably.

What a wholesome story.

Hopefully he won't mind an F-4E for the time being, maybe in Keflavik colours which look a bit more like grey USN jets.  

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15 hours ago, Gypsy 1-1 said:

Yeah, as far as I can see this is the case. Those are only some of the more relevant charts and graphs I grabbed, would have to look at said manual again and see what details I can find. The point I was trying to make originally is that the 23MLA will pretty much outmatch the 4E or 4J even in most areas - it's frankly a much newer aircraft. You will not want to turn with a Mig in the Phantom - just look at Vietnam.

My understanding is that J is not that much better at turning than E with slats. S though is propably superior to E with slats because of the better thrust. I haven't found sustained numbers for the J or S but -79 manual for E says about 14.5deg sustained in SL with 4x AIM-7 and 42777lb. Test flight was done in 1973 so those numbers are propably without slats (not 100% sure because the charts don't mention that).

 

Let's continue the discussion in 

 


Edited by divinee
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Dcs: F/A-18C, F-16C, F-14, A-10C, A-10C II, AV-8B, MiG-21bis, M2000C, C-101, AJS-37, F-5, MF1, Bf-109K4, AH-64, UH-1, Ka-50, Mi-24, FC3, SC

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19 hours ago, LanceCriminal86 said:

My dad got a ride in an F-4B with VF-14 in '72 off the Kennedy, and to this day it's the most exhilarating thing he ever did. Growing up he always told me about Phantoms, and even though had he been on the Kennedy only 3 years later he could have had a Tomcat ride, he said he'd never change a thing.

When they showed up at the Naval Academy for a tour in '69, their bus parked next to a Phantom that was on display. He always remembered that the Phantom was larger than a Greyhound Bus and it always stuck with him how ridiculous it was that a plane that big was that fast.

I'm just hoping a "J" comes out in time for me to give him a "ride" soon enough, but I know it will probably be well after the Tomcat wraps, the Eurofighter is released, Intruder, and then a few years after that probably.

That’s pretty rare, especially off of the ship. It was particularly difficult to do in the F14 since the person in back needed to run OBC, had the IFF and jettison setups. I can count on one hand how many times we did it. 

Hope he gets to “fly” the Heatblur F4E, someone will figure out a way to hook it up to the Cat. 😉

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4 hours ago, Victory205 said:

That’s pretty rare, especially off of the ship. It was particularly difficult to do in the F14 since the person in back needed to run OBC, had the IFF and jettison setups. I can count on one hand how many times we did it. 

Hope he gets to “fly” the Heatblur F4E, someone will figure out a way to hook it up to the Cat. 😉

He actually had done part of the summer down at Pensacola so he had water survival and ejection seat qual done. One of the big reasons he got to even have his name in the hat.

He's won exactly two raffles in his life. The first was at Pensacola and got an extra T-2 flight and stick time, and the second being the Phantom hop, on which he actually took Bill Lindner's flight that day because his pilot was an Air Force exchange pilot and per Bill that's who he was usually paired with.

He originally was wanting to go aviation then got hit with our family eyesight genes. Away went the distance vision and 20/20. Same happened to me at almost exactly the same age. One day I realized while driving that I couldn't read the road signs on I-95.

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VF-11 and VF-31 1988 [WIP]

VF-201 & VF-202 [WIP]

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2 hours ago, LanceCriminal86 said:

He actually had done part of the summer down at Pensacola so he had water survival and ejection seat qual done. One of the big reasons he got to even have his name in the hat.

He's won exactly two raffles in his life. The first was at Pensacola and got an extra T-2 flight and stick time, and the second being the Phantom hop, on which he actually took Bill Lindner's flight that day because his pilot was an Air Force exchange pilot and per Bill that's who he was usually paired with.

He originally was wanting to go aviation then got hit with our family eyesight genes. Away went the distance vision and 20/20. Same happened to me at almost exactly the same age. One day I realized while driving that I couldn't read the road signs on I-95.

That sounds terrifying to experience at the wheel. Still, if he'd be interested, that would be a killer way to spend time together. An aircraft like the F-4 would be amazing for that. Especially if you're in the Northern climes. Ice fishing is for the deranged, anyways!

Reformers hate him! This one weird trick found by a bush pilot will make gunfighter obsessed old farts angry at your multi-role carrier deck line up!

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On 2/1/2022 at 6:23 PM, _BringTheReign_ said:

The only way to settle this is to fight them against each other once they release - and I for one cannot wait to try all of them! I feel as though we finally have a decent 3rd gen cold war lineup - the F-4E, Mirage F1, MiG 23, MiG 21 fights will be very enjoyable!

You forgot the Mig 19

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6 hours ago, WarbossPetross said:
16 hours ago, Razor68 said:

You forgot the Mig 19

MiG-17 is in the works too, not much news about it though.

How could I forget! I enjoy flying the 19, and I'm very excited for the 17 - glad to see that Red Star is making progress!

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On 1/26/2022 at 9:21 AM, Skyspin said:

Looking forward to a CASE 3 recovery in the South China Sea after an air sweep over Hanoi and Haiphong. 

So am I. It would definitely be more interesting and exhilarating to fly into those areas from a carrier.  I recommend watching this episode of Dogfights if you haven't already.

 

 

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29 minutes ago, Evoman said:

So am I. It would definitely be more interesting and exhilarating to fly into those areas from a carrier.  I recommend watching this episode of Dogfights if you haven't already.

How about this piece of Soundtrack?

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On 2/7/2022 at 12:20 PM, Evoman said:

So am I. It would definitely be more interesting and exhilarating to fly into those areas from a carrier.  I recommend watching this episode of Dogfights if you haven't already.

 

 

Very entertaining subject matter, but I found "Dogfights" to be pretty light on detailed information.  Not really surprising, considering their target audience, but it would be really cool to see all of the interview footage interspersed with animations geared toward people with a bit more interest in the minutia of aerial warfare.


Edited by Nexus-6
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Can't pretend fly as well as you can.

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