Best plane to 'train' for the Phantom?

[The_Chugster]

So while I have a few modules I got cheap on steam (a10 and fc3) the complexity of these modules has put me off a little and I have never learned these modules...but now my favourite plane is on the way I will be flying it.

But I don't want to go in with no experience so I thought it might be a good idea to train on something else from the same period  (during the next sale) to get to grips with 60s/70s avionics and systems.

The obvious choices are the F-5, Mig-21 and Viggen.. but are there any better options and if not which of the 3 would be best for 'training'?

[Karon]

The only obvious choice is the F-14 Tomcat: no others offer the same Pilot-RIO/WSO experience. Jump into the F-14A, drop the AIM-54 for a 0/4/4 and have fun

[G.J.S]

Steam gauge F-5. Get used to the way the systems generally behave, including the sights.

[Zergburger]

8 minutes ago, Karon said:

The only obvious choice is the F-14 Tomcat: no others offer the same Pilot-RIO/WSO experience. Jump into the F-14A, drop the AIM-54 for a 0/4/4 and have fun

i was thinking F5, but i think karon hit the nail on the head. If you want to get even more F4 with it, you could only use the pulse radar modes; -E model F4s didnt get pulse doppler until very late, probably not going to be in our f4 if i were to hazard a guess.

[The_Chugster]

11 minutes ago, Karon said:

The only obvious choice is the F-14 Tomcat: no others offer the same Pilot-RIO/WSO experience. Jump into the F-14A, drop the AIM-54 for a 0/4/4 and have fun

I would like the F-14 but it never goes as cheap as the ED modules in the sales...and my money is a little limited right now.

[emg]

You could sim a pilot's career by starting out in the A-4, pretend to fail carrier qualifications and then be shipped off to a USAF F-4E squadron 

Edited January 26, 2022 by emg

[Zergburger]

2 minutes ago, The_Chugster said:

I would like the F-14 but it never goes as cheap as the ED modules in the sales...and my money is a little limited right now.

thats cuz its the best module....they know its value

[Karon]

2 minutes ago, The_Chugster said:

I would like the F-14 but it never goes as cheap as the ED modules in the sales...and my money is a little limited right now.

I've been in your shoes many moons ago, as a student. I remember I used to import MtG cards from the US and earn something by reselling them where I used to live, when the $/€ rate was very low, lol.

That being said, if the F-14 is not an option at the moment, then I'd suggest the F-5, as @G.J.S and @Zergburger wisely suggested. You miss a lot in terms of the overall experience, the RWR is probably too recent for the F-4 (I don't remember which one it's mounted, was it the -67 or earlier?), but you have the chance of getting used to the analogue avionics.

I never tried the A-4 mod, but I heard great things about it. It's free and the avionics should be aright for your purpose.

[Northstar98]

10 hours ago, Karon said:

the RWR is probably too recent for the F-4 (I don't remember which one it's mounted, was it the -67 or earlier?)

In the E, APS-107 then (starting in block 42) APR-36/37 which was later replaced by AN/ALR-46 (beginning in block 54, but retrofitted to all aircraft, according to T.O. 1F-4E-1 circa 1984, revised 1990).

Edited January 26, 2022 by Northstar98
correction: AN/ALR-47 -> AN/ALR-46

[FlankerKiller]

The A-4 is free. It should have some systems in common with the F-4E. It will get you used to a fully clickable cockpit. And with 2.0 the flight model feels good too. I can't speak to it's accuracy, but really who can on any of these. The F-5E is pretty cheap. And it's really simple to boot. The F-4E will sit somewhere between them and the F-14A in technology. If money is tight get the A-4, and save up for the F-4E. I suspect it'll be here quicker then most think. The A-4 will get you used to tactic and aircraft handling. 

[Karon]

7 hours ago, Northstar98 said:

In the E, APS-107 then (starting in block 42) APR-36/37 which was later replaced by AN/ALR-47 (beginning in block 54, but retrofitted to all aircraft, according to T.O. 1F-4E-1 circa 1984, revised 1990).

I meant the F-5's, which is actually an AN/ALR-87, not the 67 I thought it was.

But as you confirmed, the F-4's is much older.

[WinterH]

In my opinion, the best two options are A-4E mod, and F-14.

Similar vintage as upcoming early to mid 70s and late 70s to 80s F-4Es. Even the canopy is quite similar :). Many of the systems and gauges would be at least close. Tomcat has a similar two seat setup, and a literally tacked on relatively early TGP, roughly similar to the ones we may get. A-4 has that 'Nam feeling and methods similar with the early Phantom, it also has a similar bombing computer and weapon release programmer. Also has the AGM-45 Shrike we should get with F-4E. Not exactly same implementation, but similar weapon capability. Their difficult to fly well, but surprisingly well performing when done so characteristics should also be similar in a way with it.

One honorable mention could be Viggen with early Mavericks like we'll find in F-4E. But otherwise I'd say A-4 and F-14 are better analogues.

I personally don't quite agree with the suggestion of F-5E. Many of its characteristics like ease of flying, visibility out of cockpit etc are more like later aircraft, but it's weakness of thrust is unlike Phantom's strength in there. RWR isn't similar either. Nor the kinds of payload and weapon delivery capabilities. MiG-21 is of similar vintage yes, and also is hard to fly but flies well of you can tame kind of deal, but still very different in many ways, wouldn't be the best choice imo.

[Northstar98]

2 hours ago, Karon said:

I meant the F-5's, which is actually an AN/ALR-87, not the 67 I thought it was.

Oh, yes sorry, we have the AN/ALR-87 though AFAIK that's a digital upgrade of the AN/ALR-46, which is what the Phantom had.

So actually, the F-5E should be good RWR wise (except for the fact that it's missing functions and the search mode doesn't work properly).

Edited January 26, 2022 by Northstar98

[bies]

There is no one specific aircraft, but to be proficient flying Phantom you can just fly different aircrafts from similar timeframe, with manual stick and rudder flight control, close maneuver air combat with careful geometry and energy management, manual or semi manual aiming guns and weapons using rudimentary gunsight etc. Like F-5E, MiG-21bis, Viggen, soon Mirage F.1, but even MiG-19P, MiG-15bis, F-86F will be helpfull. F-14 as well for RIO interaction and overall cockpit layout.

This will give you the skillset needed for the Phantom, as you need to be simply a skillfull virtual aviator. Only post cold war aircrafts skillset is mostly dependant on memorizing particular MFD sequence to program specific weapon procedure and so on which can be learnt separately.

[some1]

In terms of cockpit layout, instruments and dogfight experience, F-5E is definitely the closest one. 

[Wilbus]

10 hours ago, The_Chugster said:

I would like the F-14 but it never goes as cheap as the ED modules in the sales...and my money is a little limited right now.

It's about as cheap as it ever has been right now, I don't think you will see it any cheaper in quite a few years, but that is just a guess. And it is hands down the most well made module even though most modules are top rated and superb.

Knowing what I know about the F14 module, even if I don't fly it as often as I should, I would rather save some money on food one month and buy the module rather than be without it

It's twice the price of the F5 on sale but I would rather get one that gives so many more things to do with it. And if it's for F4 training with Jester AI, it's really the "only" choice.

 

Wilbuz

[The_Chugster]

ok last question, does the A-4 have BVR? Or is the Tomcat the only period option for sparrows?

[WinterH]

Just now, The_Chugster said:

A-4 have BVR? Or is the Tomcat the only period option for sparrows?

No, A-4 is only for flight/air to ground portion of things, also its radar is for air to ground mapping/ranging only, no air to air mode. Only period option to train with sparrows is indeed the Tomcat.

[Victory205]

The free A4E module doesn’t fly that well right now in a number of regimes, but it does have the same type attitude indicator as the F4 in it’s AJB-3. Students did a full squirrel cage aerobatic sequence using it while flying instruments under the bag on their first flight in the TA4J in training command.

Fabulous instrument, you will love it.

[Kev2go]

23 hours ago, Zergburger said:

i was thinking F5, but i think karon hit the nail on the head. If you want to get even more F4 with it, you could only use the pulse radar modes; -E model F4s didnt get pulse doppler until very late, probably not going to be in our f4 if i were to hazard a guess.

none of the USAF F4's ever got pulse doppler radars AFAIK. They retired with some updated version of AN/APQ 120 pulse radar. Only navy phantom F4J/S had that with the APG59/AWG10 series.

[Bremspropeller]

23 hours ago, The_Chugster said:

The obvious choices are the F-5, Mig-21 and Viggen.. but are there any better options and if not which of the 3 would be best for 'training'?

As has been suggested by others, the F-4 is about a cross-section of the F-14, F-5 and A-4 for various resons. All airplanes come with some aspect or another that will be featured in the F-4.

If you don't have the A-4, change that and have a deep look at this little gem. Then, transition to the F-5 and F-14. There's little use in training with the MiG-21 or Viggen (unless you're into them), as they're too different to the Phantom.

[Zergburger]

1 hour ago, Kev2go said:

none of the USAF F4's ever got pulse doppler radars AFAIK. They retired with some updated version of AN/APQ 120 pulse radar. Only navy phantom F4J/S had that with the APG59/AWG10 series.

i was thinking of the "modernized" f4es, like turkey's terminator or whatever its called when i wrote that.

[WinterH]

6 hours ago, Zergburger said:

i was thinking of the "modernized" f4es, like turkey's terminator or whatever its called when i wrote that.

Yeah but at that point they're not F-4E anymore, but rather F-4E ICE, Peace Ikarus, Kurnass, Terminator etc, different aircraft due to extensive modernizations.

I suppose this does mean there is one aspect where F-5 can be an ok medium to train with: having an air to air radar with no look down capability. Perhaps also the general look and feel of gunsight and reticle to a degree. But overall I still think A-4 and F-14 are the best fits: A-4 for air to ground, navigation, shrikes, bombing, F-14 for air to air, two seat, also navigation to a degree I guess. I also assume their handling characteristics will be more similar to F-4 than F-5's will be.

[Reccelow]

If anyone also flies Prepar3d, try getting into the MilViz F-4E (Adv). I just picked it up for 30.00 on the Milviz site. It comes with the real flight manual, and you need it!  Great for setting up your own ground school and type rating. Easily a PMDG level study simulator. 

 

 

 

 

 

[captain_dalan]

The F-14 is really a terrible substitute for anything F-4 related except RIO-WSO interaction and possibly pulse radar. 
My opinion, the cockpit is nothing like the F-4. In the F-4 you essentially down in a bathtub, poor side visibility and non existent rear visibility. Best plane in DCS to simulate this claustrophobic experience is the A-4. However, the A-4 flies nothing like an F-4.
The F-5 has a similar "HUD" and somewhat similar dashboard. But is again too nimble for an F-4. 
I haven't tried flying the F-14 with the wings manually set to say 60 degrees and see what that does to the low speed handling characteristics. But even if pitch does become similar, the engines will be all wrong. Both in raw performance and throttle response. 
So, tough luck i guess. But nothing in DCS really emulates a Phantom of any kind right now. Performance wise, maybe a MiG-21 is the closest, but i don't own the one in DCS and i don't know which variant it is, nor how close that variant should be to the F-4E  

Edited January 27, 2022 by captain_dalan