DMAS Version autonomous self lasing - Pave Spike / Pave Tack

[AvroLanc]

Probably too early to ask the question but I will anyway...will the DMAS version come with either or both of the TDS pods for LGB's - Pave Spike or Pave Tack? 

The -34 says that DMAS is Pave Tack capable, that being the FLIR version, the Pave spike being daytime TV only. I think the two pods come with dedicated cockpit hardware and controls unique to each pod, so it would have to be one or another. 

Personally I would prefer the challenge of Pave Spike and the pod itself is more elegant looking, but PT might be more suitable for DMAS. Thanks.

[Northstar98]

Pave Spike was only on select DSCG aircraft (blocks 36 - 45), Pave Tack was only on DMAS (AN/ARN-101) aircraft (blocks 48 to 62).

So the earlier DSCG F-4E should have Pave Spike, and the later DMAS (AN/ARN-101) should have Pave Tack.

This according to T.O. 1F4E-1 circa 1984 (revised 1990) and T.O. 1F-4E-34-1-1 circa 1979 (revised 1986).

Edited January 26, 2022 by Northstar98

[AvroLanc]

3 minutes ago, Northstar98 said:

Pave Spike was only on select DSCG aircraft (blocks 36 - 45), Pave Tack was only on DMAS (AN/ARN-101) aircraft (blocks 48 to 62).

So the earlier DSCG F-4E should have Pave Spike, and the later DMAS (AN/ARN-101) should have Pave Tack.

This according to T.O. 1F4E-1 circa 1984 (revised 1990) and T.O. 1F-4E-34-1-1 circa 1979 (revised 1986).

 

 

OK, I've only had a very brief look through those manuals this morning.

That would be the best and most welcome solution. I was under the initial impression HB's '1974' version was too early for Pave Spike, but may be wrong.

[Northstar98]

On 1/26/2022 at 11:22 AM, AvroLanc said:

 

OK, I've only had a very brief look through those manuals this morning.

That would be the best and most welcome solution. I was under the initial impression HB's '1974' version was too early for Pave Spike, but may be wrong.

Well if wiki is to be believed, in entered service on the F-4E in 1974, so we may be in for a chance.

Everything is there in T.O. 1F-4E-34-1-1 for the Pave Spike and everything is there in T.O. 1F-4E-34-1-1-2 for Pave Tack.

Edited August 9, 2022 by Northstar98
grammar

[AvroLanc]

21 minutes ago, Northstar98 said:

Well if wiki is to be believed, in entered service on the F-4E in 1974, so we may be in for a chance.

Everything is there in T.O. 1F-4E-34-1-1 for the Pave Spike, and everything is there in T.O. 1F-4E-34-1-1-2 for Pave Tack.

Hmmm.....but that T.O. 1F-4E-34-1-1 is dated at the earliest 1979. 

I'm fine with the early version not having LGB capability. It's not as if we don't have enough aircraft that don't do that already. The classic appeal of the Phantom is certainly not PGM dropping. It would be nice to have Pave Spike though, if only so they can port it over to a Buccaneer S2 some day. 

[Northstar98]

On 1/26/2022 at 11:57 AM, AvroLanc said:

Hmmm.....but that T.O. 1F-4E-34-1-1 is dated at the earliest 1979.

True, I can't see a date though. I'll try and find a more concrete source, but so far it looks like mid 70s is when the introduction of Pave Spike happend on the F-4 (wiki says 1974, this museum entry says 1974 (though both don't give a citation), C:MO database says 1975).

I'm fairly confident the 1974 variant should be good for Pave Spike, in the absence of better sources.

There's certainly data there for it, including details about all cockpit controls and indicators.

On 1/26/2022 at 11:57 AM, AvroLanc said:

I'm fine with the early version not having LGB capability. It's not as if we don't have enough aircraft that don't do that already. The classic appeal of the Phantom is certainly not PGM dropping. It would be nice to have Pave Spike though, if only so they can port it over to a Buccaneer S2 some day. 

While I'm more on the late F-4E side (getting exactly what I wanted with this recent announcement), it would be good to get.

I know people really want Vietnam, I just don't see it happening in the near future, whereas IMO mid 70s and beyond USAF F-4Es better suit DCS as it is.

And yes, if we ever get a Buccaneer, it would be good to get Pave Spike (according to this, it came in 1978). Pave Tack will also be useful if we ever get an Operation El Dorado era F-111F.

Edited February 17, 2022 by Northstar98

[AvroLanc]

7 minutes ago, Northstar98 said:

 

And yes, if we ever get a Buccaneer, it would be good to get Pave Spike (according to this, it came in 1978). Pave Tack will also be useful if we ever get an Operation El Dorado era F-111F.

 

 

Well fingers crossed then. It may come as an extra feature down the line.

I think you've started a new thing....develop the Pod system first as an excuse to get an aircraft we want further down the line. I just need to convince HB that the F-4 did indeed use British TIALD pod's in 1973.....tall order...but only way to get a Tonka?

Edited January 26, 2022 by AvroLanc

[WinterH]

As far as I know, the early version can get the Pave Spike, and late one Pave Tack. But so far HB didn't say anything about pods, better wait for the news on that front I guess.

While I appreciate the extra effort wouldn't be any sort of trivial, as far as I know cockpit itself doesn't really change much, if at all on Pave Spike birds. The reason it would be nice is that quite a few of F-4E operators had some Pave Spike birds themselves, while Pave Tack wasn't really exported for Phantoms as far as I know. There are also a few smaller cool-to-have reasons, it is a lot lighter and less draggy, goes into Sparrow station rather than centerline, and is a lot more old-school and hard to use experience.

So since we are amazingly having two different levels/periods of F-4E, as it deserves, it'd be even more amazing to get two separate types of TGP for each

[Northstar98]

On 1/26/2022 at 12:47 PM, WinterH said:

As far as I know, the early version can get the Pave Spike, and late one Pave Tack. But so far HB didn't say anything about pods, better wait for the news on that front I guess.

While I appreciate the extra effort wouldn't be any sort of trivial, as far as I know cockpit itself doesn't really change much, if at all on Pave Spike birds.

According to 1F-4E-34-1-1, here are the specific panels for Pave Spike:

Front cockpit:

• Pod LOS indicator mounted on gunsight (top right)
• Slant range indicator mounted on gunsight (top left)
• Switch for RDR/TV video for the scope on pedestal panel

Rear cockpit:

• Target designator panel added to the centre console (which is a fairly substantial panel, like the panel for the LTS in the Tomcat, it controls things like operating modes, knobs for brightness and trim and a few status indicators)
• Coder control panel on the right console (controls laser code)
• Video select button underneath the centre panel

With Pave Tack, according to 1F-4E-34-1-1-2:

Rear cockpit:

• CLI (Control Lens Indicator), mounted over the DSCG (just in case anyone is confused, Pave Tack is on DMAS aircraft only, but DMAS aircraft still use DSCG displays).
• Pave Tack control panel on right console
• Laser code control panel on right console (this is different to the coder control panel on Pave Spike)
• Target insertion controller on left console

Fortunately though, all DMAS aircraft should have these (apart from maybe the CLI). The CLI is quite substantial and contains numerous controls for controlling the display.

Pave Tack video however can also be displayed on the front cockpit DSCG scope (same with Pave Spike).

On 1/26/2022 at 12:47 PM, WinterH said:

The reason it would be nice is that quite a few of F-4E operators had some Pave Spike birds themselves, while Pave Tack wasn't really exported for Phantoms as far as I know.

As far as I know, Pave Tack was exported to ROKAF Phantoms.

On 1/26/2022 at 12:47 PM, WinterH said:

There are also a few smaller cool-to-have reasons, it is a lot lighter and less draggy, goes into Sparrow station rather than centerline, and is a lot more old-school and hard to use experience.

Agreed, though the experience should be pretty similar, both only have stabilisation (think Mi-24P), with target tracking needing to be done manually.

Pave Tack does have a few more acquire modes though, as well as memory tracking and I think can be slewed to an aim point.

On 1/26/2022 at 12:47 PM, WinterH said:

So since we are amazingly having two different levels/periods of F-4E, as it deserves, it'd be even more amazing to get two separate types of TGP for each

Definitely agreed.

Edited August 9, 2022 by Northstar98
grammar

[MBot]

3 minutes ago, Northstar98 said:

Agreed, though the experience should be pretty similar, both only have ground stabilisation, with target tracking needing to be done manually.

Do you have details on the Pave Spike stabilization? I was under the impression that was is only gyro stabilized, so would need to be held on a fixed point by hand (like the sight in the Hind).

[Northstar98]

10 hours ago, MBot said:

Do you have details on the Pave Spike stabilization? I was under the impression that was is only gyro stabilized, so would need to be held on a fixed point by hand (like the sight in the Hind).

You're correct, for Pave Spike the -34-1-1 explicitly states that the TV and LTD/R LOS is boresighted and pointed by a gyro-stabilised mirror.

For Pave Tack, in the -34-1-1-2 for the F-4E, it states that full action on the IHC (Integrated Hand Control) selects "manual track mode with computer rate-aiding..." and also makes reference to a memory mode (which stores the pod track position and aims the sightline automatically - used when the laser reaches an inhibit region).

In T.O. 1F-111F-1 circa 1995, it states that the Pave Tack's sightline is controlled manually in a track mode but is aided by "rate aiding signals generated by the pod computer". So there's some corroboration there.

It can be cued to an aimpoint (not sure if the same is true for the F-4E, though DMAS can store Pave Tack's track position and compute coordinates at the track point) and has a memory point-track (MPT) mode, which stores the track point into memory and the computer automatically aims the pod sightline. MPT is commanded automatically when the pod sightline reaches within the laser inhibit region or when half-action is selected. However, I don't think MPT permits laser firing (quoting from T.O. 1F-111F-1: "when the pod enters MPT, the laser fire command is set to off...").

Edited January 27, 2022 by Northstar98

[Zergburger]

The form factor difference seems immense between pave spike and pave tack.

Does pave tack bring an increase in visual fidelity or other feature that could redeem its substantial increase in weight and drag when compared to pave spike?

[Sealpup]

Most of the Pave Tack's size is its cooling system, which is primarily for the early-gen FLIR sensor's health. I remember hearing something about the better cooling also giving the laser better firing times, but I cannot remember WHERE I heard that from. Otherwise its the benefit of FLIR vs TV sensor, and also the fact that DMAS birds simply can't use Pave Spike.

[Northstar98]

8 hours ago, Zergburger said:

The form factor difference seems immense between pave spike and pave tack.

Does pave tack bring an increase in visual fidelity or other feature that could redeem its substantial increase in weight and drag when compared to pave spike?

They're both 1st. gen systems, in comparison LANTIRN is 2nd. gen and LITENING (at least our variants) & ATFLIR are 3rd.

According to the -34-1-1-2, Pave Tack has 2 FOVs and a digital zoom. According to the -34-1-1 Pave Spike has 2 FOVs but no digital zoom. Unfortunately I can't find the numbers for what the FOVs should be, nor can I find what the resolution should be.

But the main advantage Pave Tack brings is that it's FLIR rather than TV, it also has that memory mode, as well as several more acquire modes.

As said previously, Pave Spike is only on selected blocks

As for its bulk? Here's a cutaway I found:

[Sealpup]

 Well, I stand corrected.

[Northstar98]

One thing I'm interested in, is where Pave Tack goes on the Phantom.

• The -34-1-1-2 describes a laser coder unit control panel for the Pave Tack. How this control panel works (from my reading) is that you turn it on, dial in a code and then there are 3 buttons marked L, R, and C (which I understand to be left inboard wing, right inboard wing and centreline) to transmit the code to the station the pod is mounted on.
• Images of the F-4E w/ Pave Tack, only seems to show it on the centreline station (these might be testing/evaluation aircraft though). Can't seem to find any with it on the inboard pylons (pictures in the spoiler below).

Spoiler

RF-4C but, also shows it on the centreline:

RF-4C again, but on the centreline again:

• This source however states that: "Pave Tacks were never used on F-4 centerline stations. (F-111s did, though.) The reason? There was no video coax wiring present in the F-4 centerline. On F-4s, Pave Tack was loaded only on the inboard pylons - where the 'ball' end cleared the ground by no more than 8-10 inches."

Edited February 17, 2022 by Northstar98

[Kirk66]

That source (Joe Baugher) is flat out wrong about where the Pave Tack pod was carried on the ARN-101 F-4Es. It was ONLY carried on the centerline; I dropped quite a few GBU-10 and 12s in the mid 80s in that configuration (Pave Tack on CL, LGBs on inboards, 370s on outboards).  When loaded with 2 GBU-10s, that was right at our max taxi weight!

My unit (3TFS Peugeots) received our Pave Tack pods along with the ARN-101 mod; I did some of the early flying with the pod demonstrating it's capabilities to the Wing Commander - we made night time simulated LGB attack on the base commanders house and taped it so the new capability could be shown to the bosses - the video tape showed me cueing the pod to the area of the general's house, then putting the aiming crosshairs on the corner of the house where his bedroom was during the full simulated delivery (medium altitude at night).  

Pave Tack (or Pave Truck, as we called it) was an awesome pod, but just too big for the F-4, Pave Spike was a lot more limited (and harder to use!) but it made more sense. What we really needed was a way to cue a Spike pod via DMAS; never got that which really limited the use of LGBs in the ARN jets.

Vulture

 

[Northstar98]

4 hours ago, Kirk66 said:

That source (Joe Baugher) is flat out wrong about where the Pave Tack pod was carried on the ARN-101 F-4Es. It was ONLY carried on the centerline; I dropped quite a few GBU-10 and 12s in the mid 80s in that configuration (Pave Tack on CL, LGBs on inboards, 370s on outboards).  When loaded with 2 GBU-10s, that was right at our max taxi weight!

My unit (3TFS Peugeots) received our Pave Tack pods along with the ARN-101 mod; I did some of the early flying with the pod demonstrating it's capabilities to the Wing Commander - we made night time simulated LGB attack on the base commanders house and taped it so the new capability could be shown to the bosses - the video tape showed me cueing the pod to the area of the general's house, then putting the aiming crosshairs on the corner of the house where his bedroom was during the full simulated delivery (medium altitude at night).  

Pave Tack (or Pave Truck, as we called it) was an awesome pod, but just too big for the F-4, Pave Spike was a lot more limited (and harder to use!) but it made more sense. What we really needed was a way to cue a Spike pod via DMAS; never got that which really limited the use of LGBs in the ARN jets.

Vulture

Thank-you very much for your input Vulture! I appreciate it

The only thing outstanding is that coder control unit panel, with the L and R buttons (if my understanding is correct), I'm guessing these weren't used? I just had a look at the -1 for the F-4E and the external stores limitations table only shows Pave Tack on the centreline station (page 5-32D).

Also, do you know if Pave Spike was still compatible with DMAS upgraded block 45s? The -34-1-1 states that Pave Spike was only on selected aircraft belonging to blocks 36 - 45.

Cheers!

Edited January 27, 2022 by Northstar98

[Harlikwin]

What about pave knife... We need pave knife.

 

[Northstar98]

2 hours ago, Harlikwin said:

What about pave knife... We need pave knife.

Isn't that an F-4D thing?

 

[Kirk66]

Pretty sure Pave Spike was not compatible with the ARN-101 jets - it didn't have the controller box or front seat LOS indicator. Pave Truck was supposed to replace it, but it didn't take long for the Truck pods to go over to the F-111 (perfect for them) and we were back to dumb bombs (although now with CCIP/CCRP, so pretty accurate) and the real fun toy, the GBU-15! Now that beast was a LOT of fun!

Vulture

[Harlikwin]

22 hours ago, Northstar98 said:

Isn't that an F-4D thing?

 

Maybe. But I also want Pave Light... Something actually fun to do in the backseat. 

 

 

[Kev2go]

On 1/27/2022 at 5:07 PM, Northstar98 said:

Thank-you very much for your input Vulture! I appreciate it

The only thing outstanding is that coder control unit panel, with the L and R buttons (if my understanding is correct), I'm guessing these weren't used? I just had a look at the -1 for the F-4E and the external stores limitations table only shows Pave Tack on the centreline station (page 5-32D).

Also, do you know if Pave Spike was still compatible with DMAS upgraded block 45s? The -34-1-1 states that Pave Spike was only on selected aircraft belonging to blocks 36 - 45.

Cheers!

 

i thought DMAS was only added to F4E block 48 ( starting from # 71-237)  up to block 62?  at least according to documentation?

Which also means phantoms that had TISEO sensor

 

 

Edited February 1, 2022 by Kev2go

[Dragon1-1]

23 hours ago, Northstar98 said:

Isn't that an F-4D thing?

A dozen F-4Ds with six pods between them, all of them with Satan's Angels (433rd TFS). Not exactly widely deployed, and quickly replaced, but if we get the F-4D, it'd be nice to have. Along with a Satan's Angels livery, but that goes without saying, what with this being the squadron Olds flew with.

[Northstar98]

12 hours ago, Kirk66 said:

Pretty sure Pave Spike was not compatible with the ARN-101 jets - it didn't have the controller box or front seat LOS indicator. Pave Truck was supposed to replace it, but it didn't take long for the Truck pods to go over to the F-111 (perfect for them) and we were back to dumb bombs (although now with CCIP/CCRP, so pretty accurate) and the real fun toy, the GBU-15! Now that beast was a LOT of fun!

Vulture

Thanks!

11 hours ago, Kev2go said:

i thought DMAS was only added to F4E block 48 ( starting from # 71-237)  up to block 62?  at least according to documentation?

Which also means phantoms that had TISEO sensor

Information is a little contradictory:

The -1 states that DMAS (along with AN/ARN-101) was on aircraft 71-0237 to 74-1653 (which corresponds to blocks 48 to 62). But in the -34-1-1, block 45 is listed as a DMAS aircraft.

The -1 I'm reading from however is a later revision, than the -34-1-1, so the -1 is probably the better source.

And yes, these were the Phantoms with TISEO and Agile Eagle slats.