DMAS Version autonomous self lasing - Pave Spike / Pave Tack

[SgtPappy]

On 1/27/2022 at 12:32 PM, Kirk66 said:

That source (Joe Baugher) is flat out wrong about where the Pave Tack pod was carried on the ARN-101 F-4Es. It was ONLY carried on the centerline; I dropped quite a few GBU-10 and 12s in the mid 80s in that configuration (Pave Tack on CL, LGBs on inboards, 370s on outboards).  When loaded with 2 GBU-10s, that was right at our max taxi weight!

My unit (3TFS Peugeots) received our Pave Tack pods along with the ARN-101 mod; I did some of the early flying with the pod demonstrating it's capabilities to the Wing Commander - we made night time simulated LGB attack on the base commanders house and taped it so the new capability could be shown to the bosses - the video tape showed me cueing the pod to the area of the general's house, then putting the aiming crosshairs on the corner of the house where his bedroom was during the full simulated delivery (medium altitude at night).  

Pave Tack (or Pave Truck, as we called it) was an awesome pod, but just too big for the F-4, Pave Spike was a lot more limited (and harder to use!) but it made more sense. What we really needed was a way to cue a Spike pod via DMAS; never got that which really limited the use of LGBs in the ARN jets.

Vulture

 

This is a great story, Vulture.

I didn't know you were with the 3rd TFS! Those birds are some of my favourite Phantoms since my parents were born and raised in the Philippines in different parts of Luzon. I think they left for Canada by the time you were dropping those bombs though!

[WinterH]

Kirk's first hand experience comments look like even more reason to hope for getting both Pave Spike and Pave Tack for each respective variant we are to get with the module

[Kirk66]

Clark AB in the 80s was a great place to be flying F-4s; great weather (except for the occasional typhoon), Aggressors right on the field (so lots of DACT), bombing range right next to the base (so bingo could be low), and Cope Thunder exercises every few months so lots of action with all sorts of interesting units and aircraft.  The furballs out over the ocean by Iba (west of Clark) were awesome - you would just keep your speed up and circle around until someone on the other side (usually some Navy toad) would spit out - then jump him for a quick F1-F2-snapshot guns.  Or they would jump you! Plus monthly deployments to Korea (Kunsan or Osan, usually) etc.  And lots of opportunities to jump in visiting jets - got rides in OV-10s, OA-37s, and NZAF A-4s - but missed my chance to ride in a Singapore Hunter!

Vulture

[Kirk66]

7 minutes ago, WinterH said:

Kirk's first hand experience comments look like even more reason to hope for getting both Pave Spike and Pave Tack for each respective variant we are to get with the module

This. Spike for old school daytime LGBs with the earlier (and faster) pre-ARN jets, along with A/B Mavericks; Truck for nightime LGBs, and GBU-15s (graduate level weapon, that) with the ARN jets (which also have TISEO and a slightly better radar for A/A, but they are heavier/slower...).

Low altitude GBU-15 attacks were crazy - run in at 300' or less, 540 knots, and at around 4 miles from the target, pitch up a bit, release the weapon, and immediately do a slice back down to low level. Meanwhile, your buddy is back 10 miles or so guiding the weapon via TV datalink trying to find the target "looking through a soda straw", while his pilot counts down the time till predicted impact. Before GPS it took a LOT of practice to get it right; the local prisons in North Carolina ended up calling the base commander at SJAFB to tell him to stop attacking his prisons! When training, you used one jet to "be the bomb" and fly the weapon profile (as far as you dared) while the other jet flew the release and guidance profile and it's WSO guided the "weapon". Not bad when doing high altitude deliveries, the "bomb" jet just flew fingertip formation until "released", then the pilot watched the camera video from the captive weapon on his jet to see where the WSO in the "guiding" jet was trying to steer him. There was a specific power and flight path profile you flew to simulate the weapon profile.

The fun started when you practiced low altitude deliveries. Now the bomb jet is in close formation at real low altitude hanging on to the controller jet that is trying to line up for the shot, then when "released", flying up a few thousand feet, pitching over, pulling back the power, and following the weapon video to fly at whatever the guiding WSO in the other jet thinks is the target. This sometimes involved lofting the bomb over a ridgeline into a valley - you only had a few seconds to find the target and guide to it.

Two jets would go out together and take turns; one of our favorite targets was a big truck stop on I-95 close to the South Carolina border - it had a huge billboard that made it easy to see when in the weeds, and no one complained about jets roaring over it.

Vulture

[SgtPappy]

54 minutes ago, Kirk66 said:

Clark AB in the 80s was a great place to be flying F-4s; great weather (except for the occasional typhoon), Aggressors right on the field (so lots of DACT), bombing range right next to the base (so bingo could be low), and Cope Thunder exercises every few months so lots of action with all sorts of interesting units and aircraft.  The furballs out over the ocean by Iba (west of Clark) were awesome - you would just keep your speed up and circle around until someone on the other side (usually some Navy toad) would spit out - then jump him for a quick F1-F2-snapshot guns.  Or they would jump you! Plus monthly deployments to Korea (Kunsan or Osan, usually) etc.  And lots of opportunities to jump in visiting jets - got rides in OV-10s, OA-37s, and NZAF A-4s - but missed my chance to ride in a Singapore Hunter!

Vulture

Awesome stuff. My mom used to tell me about the typhoons and how sometimes she'd play in the small flooded parks with her siblings. Wild weather, and by the sound of it, even wilder flying! I would love to hear more about your DACT experiences there.

35 minutes ago, Kirk66 said:

This. Spike for old school daytime LGBs with the earlier (and faster) pre-ARN jets, along with A/B Mavericks; Truck for nightime LGBs, and GBU-15s (graduate level weapon, that) with the ARN jets (which also have TISEO and a slightly better radar for A/A, but they are heavier/slower...).

Low altitude GBU-15 attacks were crazy - run in at 300' or less, 540 knots, and at around 4 miles from the target, pitch up a bit, release the weapon, and immediately do a slice back down to low level. Meanwhile, your buddy is back 10 miles or so guiding the weapon via TV datalink trying to find the target "looking through a soda straw", while his pilot counts down the time till predicted impact. Before GPS it took a LOT of practice to get it right; the local prisons in North Carolina ended up calling the base commander at SJAFB to tell him to stop attacking his prisons! When training, you used one jet to "be the bomb" and fly the weapon profile (as far as you dared) while the other jet flew the release and guidance profile and it's WSO guided the "weapon". Not bad when doing high altitude deliveries, the "bomb" jet just flew fingertip formation until "released", then the pilot watched the camera video from the captive weapon on his jet to see where the WSO in the "guiding" jet was trying to steer him. There was a specific power and flight path profile you flew to simulate the weapon profile.

The fun started when you practiced low altitude deliveries. Now the bomb jet is in close formation at real low altitude hanging on to the controller jet that is trying to line up for the shot, then when "released", flying up a few thousand feet, pitching over, pulling back the power, and following the weapon video to fly at whatever the guiding WSO in the other jet thinks is the target. This sometimes involved lofting the bomb over a ridgeline into a valley - you only had a few seconds to find the target and guide to it.

Two jets would go out together and take turns; one of our favorite targets was a big truck stop on I-95 close to the South Carolina border - it had a huge billboard that made it easy to see when in the weeds, and no one complained about jets roaring over it.

Vulture

This is going to be a brand new experience to the DCS community. Can't wait to the GBU-15 for myself.

[MBot]

2 hours ago, Kirk66 said:

Low altitude GBU-15 attacks were crazy - run in at 300' or less, 540 knots, and at around 4 miles from the target, pitch up a bit, release the weapon, and immediately do a slice back down to low level. Meanwhile, your buddy is back 10 miles or so guiding the weapon via TV datalink trying to find the target "looking through a soda straw", while his pilot counts down the time till predicted impact. Before GPS it took a LOT of practice to get it right; the local prisons in North Carolina ended up calling the base commander at SJAFB to tell him to stop attacking his prisons! When training, you used one jet to "be the bomb" and fly the weapon profile (as far as you dared) while the other jet flew the release and guidance profile and it's WSO guided the "weapon". Not bad when doing high altitude deliveries, the "bomb" jet just flew fingertip formation until "released", then the pilot watched the camera video from the captive weapon on his jet to see where the WSO in the "guiding" jet was trying to steer him. There was a specific power and flight path profile you flew to simulate the weapon profile.

This is so cool.

I am working right now to implement AI low level toss bombing for my Air-Ground Attack Script. Using Walleye as a GBU-15 substitute in the following video. So my AI wingmen will be ready for the F-4E

 

[Kev2go]

13 hours ago, Northstar98 said:

Thanks!

Information is a little contradictory:

The -1 states that DMAS (along with AN/ARN-101) was on aircraft 71-0237 to 74-1653 (which corresponds to blocks 48 to 62). But in the -34-1-1, block 45 is listed as a DMAS aircraft.

The -1 I'm reading from however is a later revision, than the -34-1-1, so the -1 is probably the better source.

And yes, these were the Phantoms with TISEO and Agile Eagle slats.

 

i also have a additional documentation manual 34-1-1-2 published 1983 and revised 1986 which is a supplement only pertaining to DMAS modified phantoms and it too says on the cover it specifically only pertains from aircraft 71-0237 to 74-1653

 

i do have F4G dash 34 which says select F4E blocks 42-45  that were Converted to F4G standard post conversion got DMAS upgrades but the F4G is no longer an F4E

[Northstar98]

11 hours ago, Kev2go said:

i also have a additional documentation manual 34-1-1-2 published 1983 and revised 1986 which is a supplement only pertaining to DMAS modified phantoms and it too says on the cover it specifically only pertains from aircraft 71-0237 to 74-1653

Yeah, got that one too, and yes it does state that, the table of subvariants in the -34-1-1 on page 6 and 7 (before section 1) is incorrect.

[Super Grover]

We plan to equip the "classic" (Blocks 36-45) with the Pave Spike. The DMAS version is too distant to discuss it now in detail, but we are thinking about creating the Pave Tack for it. However, it's too soon to consider it a promise because it depends on multiple factors. I just wanted to write that it looks like we, the flight sim enthusiasts, think very much alike, and we dream about the same things.

[_BringTheReign_]

4 minutes ago, Super Grover said:

I just wanted to write that it looks like we, the flight sim enthusiasts, think very much alike, and we dream about the same things.

Always felt like you all at Heatblur really love what you do - it really shows! 

[SgtPappy]

1 hour ago, Super Grover said:

We plan to equip the "classic" (Blocks 36-45) with the Pave Spike. The DMAS version is too distant to discuss it now in detail, but we are thinking about creating the Pave Tack for it. However, it's too soon to consider it a promise because it depends on multiple factors. I just wanted to write that it looks like we, the flight sim enthusiasts, think very much alike, and we dream about the same things.

This is great to hear. I understand things could change but your feedback is well-received. I remember in the Belsimtek days when this was canceled I was really disappointed for a while. Now bringing back two F-4E's with the exact configurations that I happened to be dreaming of is incredible - with the teaser released on my birthday no less. Should I be concerned that someone from HB might be stalking me?? 

Back to the discussion now: Does DSCG necessarily mean that TISEO is equipped? I'm reading my copies of the -34-1-1 and -34-1-1-2 and I haven't got too far, but they say that the DSCG equips all TISEO planes and allows the use of TV video (from say the AGM-65's or Pave Knife) but I guess that doesn't necessarily mean that all DSCG birds have TISEO installed.

[Super Grover]

Both versions will be DSCG, but as far as I know, TISEO wasn't retrofitted to blocks 36-45. And the DMAS? I hate how the TISEO camera looks, but I guess we would never forgive ourselves if we didn't attach that ugly cylinder to the left wing.

Edited February 3, 2022 by Super Grover

[SgtPappy]

1 hour ago, Super Grover said:

Both versions will be DSCG, but as far as I know, TISEO wasn't retrofitted to blocks 36-45. And the DMAS? I hate how the TISEO camera looks, but I guess we would never forgive ourselves if we didn't attach that ugly cylinder to the left wing.

 

Don't think of it as ugly think of it as.. double-ugly! Bad joke, I'll see myself out.

But really, your team is going above and beyond to have all this versatility and variety. 

Edited February 3, 2022 by SgtPappy

[Northstar98]

On 2/3/2022 at 6:44 PM, Super Grover said:

Both versions will be DSCG

As in they'll both have DSCG displays? The FAQ states there will be a DSCG variant (assuming it'll be a block 36-45) and a DMAS aircraft (presumably a block 48-62).

Both variants use DSCG displays (required for AGM-65 utilisation).

On 2/3/2022 at 6:44 PM, Super Grover said:

but as far as I know, TISEO wasn't retrofitted to blocks 36-45.

That's what the -34-1-1-2 states at least.

On 2/3/2022 at 6:44 PM, Super Grover said:

And the DMAS? I hate how the TISEO camera looks, but I guess we would never forgive ourselves if we didn't attach that ugly cylinder to the left wing.

AFAIK all DMAS + AN/ARN-101 aircraft should have TISEO.

It's essentially identical to the TCS on the Tomcat (even the symbology, only difference is that TISEO also has a RADAR LOS indicator as well as its own LOS indicator EDIT: The TCS has this too, so symbology is identical).

 

But more importantly, will we get Pave Spike on the DSCG aircraft? And will we get Pave Tack on the DMAS aircraft?

Edited July 1, 2022 by Northstar98

[Super Grover]

Yes, on the DSCG, I thought about the displays as that is how I understood the discussion above. The rest, I think, I answered in my first comment. Yes, we want the DSCG aircraft to have Pave Spike, and yes, we're thinking about Pave Tack for DMAS, but it's too soon to say that it's going to be there for sure.

[Northstar98]

On 2/3/2022 at 9:22 PM, Super Grover said:

The rest, I think, I answered in my first comment. Yes, we want the DSCG aircraft to have Pave Spike, and yes, we're thinking about Pave Tack for DMAS, but it's too soon to say that it's going to be there for sure.

Oops! Indeed you did, someone needs to pay more attention

Awesome, thanks!

Edited February 7, 2022 by Northstar98

[MBot]

Does anyone know if Pave Spike produced any weapon release aids (on the ADI perhaps) or if LGB deliveries were aimed just like regular dumb bombs. What was the usual delivery profile for LGBs? Level or dive?

Since Pave Tack could generate target coordinates IIRC, I assume that it would feed into some kind of AUTO/CCRP delivery. Correct?

[Northstar98]

On 2/11/2022 at 2:18 PM, MBot said:

Does anyone know if Pave Spike produced any weapon release aids (on the ADI perhaps) or if LGB deliveries were aimed just like regular dumb bombs. What was the usual delivery profile for LGBs? Level or dive?

Pave Spike produces slant range and can provide for an AUTO release handled by the WRCS (Weapon Release Control System) using dive toss equations, with drag coefficient of the weapon and target elevation being set by the WSO.

The only information Pave Spike provides here is slant range AFAIK.

There's a back-up AUTO mode (ROR mode - not sure what that means, it isn't mentioned in the glossary EDIT: it means release on range), this releases weapons when the current slant range matches with a predicted/expected slant range at weapon release.

Not sure what the usual delivery was, but I'm guessing LGBs could be used with most, if not all modes.

On 2/11/2022 at 2:18 PM, MBot said:

Since Pave Tack could generate target coordinates IIRC, I assume that it would feed into some kind of AUTO/CCRP delivery. Correct?

So far it just seems that Pave Tack provides slant range, which is fed into DMAS. The thing actually doing the calculations is DMAS, and using DMAS aided bomb release modes.

Can't see anything mentioned for generating coordinates, apart from updating the DMAS with slant ranges.

Edited July 1, 2022 by Northstar98
grammar

[MBot]

12 minutes ago, Northstar98 said:

Pave Spike produces slant range and can provide for an AUTO release handled by the WRCS (Weapon Release Control System) using dive toss equations, with drag coefficient of the weapon and target elevation being set by the WSO).

The only information Pave Spike provides here is slant range AFAIK.

There's a back-up AUTO mode (ROR mode - not sure what that means, it isn't mentioned in the glossary), this releases weapons when the current slant range matches with a predicted/expected slant range at weapon release.

Not sure what the usual delivery was, but I'm guessing LGBs could be used with most modes.

Thanks, this is very interesting. This sounds very much as you would want to dive or dive-toss at the target, to get the left/right part done. A medium altitude level release doesn't seem practical withouth steering cues.

 

4 minutes ago, Northstar98 said:

So far it just seems that Pave Tack provides slant range, which is fed into DMAS. The thing actually doing the calculations is DMAS, and using DMAS aided bomb release modes.

Can't see anything mentioned for generating coordinates, apart from updating the DMAS.

That is what I meant. I.e. the aircraft knows where it is and Pave Tack provides an azimuth angle, elevation angle and distance to the target, so the position of the target can be calcualted by the aircraft (and steering cues for weapon release be generated).

[mkellytx]

On 2/11/2022 at 8:31 AM, Northstar98 said:

Pave Spike produces slant range and can provide for an AUTO release handled by the WRCS (Weapon Release Control System) using dive toss equations, with drag coefficient of the weapon and target elevation being set by the WSO).

The only information Pave Spike provides here is slant range AFAIK.

There's a back-up AUTO mode (ROR mode - not sure what that means, it isn't mentioned in the glossary), this releases weapons when the current slant range matches with a predicted/expected slant range at weapon release.

Not sure what the usual delivery was, but I'm guessing LGBs could be used with most, if not all modes.

The book Sierra Hotel discussed how the Weapons School taught tosses from low level with Pave Spike for high threat environments, so there's at least one to use if we get it...

[G.J.S]

On 2/12/2022 at 11:58 PM, mkellytx said:

The book Sierra Hotel discussed how the Weapons School taught tosses from low level with Pave Spike for high threat environments, so there's at least one to use if we get it...

If I remember correctly involves the stand off spiker, designating from altitude, with the weapon carrier running in low and fast, tossing from 5+ miles away.

[mkellytx]

On 2/15/2022 at 6:44 AM, G.J.S said:

If I remember correctly involves the stand off spiker, designating from altitude, with the weapon carrier running in low and fast, tossing from 5+ miles away.

Could very well be, it's been about two years since I last read it.  However, that sounds a lot more like the TTP for GBU-8/15 optical bombs with data link.  ISTR that the GBU-10/12 delivery with Spike was lased and delivered from the loft because of the description of the WSO having to hold the crosshairs on the target while the pilot pulled back towards the ground.  The Pave Knife deliveries in VN were primarily buddy lase, but both Knife and Spike 5 miles out would be inside of target defenses during the 70's.

Either way it gives us a good reason to re-read the book or dig through the -34.

Edit:

And the good book states (TO 1F-4E-34-1-1, 1-87)

Two automatic weapons release modes are available when the delivery mode selection knob is positioned to TGT FIND: WRCS AUTO and ROR (release-on-range), figure 1-33.  Both release modes are selectable on the slant range indicator and use laser generated or computed slant range in the weapon release solution. (Refer to Slant Range Computation, Laser and Computed, in later pages.)  The final phase of the bomb run is accomplished with the aid of the TV display and the displayed weapon release cue symbols (laser status), and/or the optical sight.  Weapon release occurs when the release signal is generated if the bomb button is pressed.  Both modes permit immediate evasive maneuvering after weapon release when delivering laser guided bombs (LGB).  The WSO continues to track and illuminate the target until after weapon impact.

The WRCS automatic release mode uses the dive toss equations to produce a release solution and generate a release signal.  The WSO must set in a drag coefficient and target elevation of the WCRS panel.

Figure 1-33 shows a Dive Toss Maneuver for the WRCS AUTO RELEASE MODE.

 

One comment here, Sierra Hotel was about the weapons school so difficult was part of the job.

Edited February 16, 2022 by mkellytx

[Kirk66]

Spike was actually better for medium altitude LGB deliveries than Tack because of the location of the pod - it was forward of the wing so you could lase the target in a continuous left hand turn - with Tack you had to turn away and bunt, basically. Once the WSO found the target and started to manually track it, the weapon was released (parameters not too critical, it's a GBU-12 after all) then the pilot would offset to the right then reverse to the left until bomb impact. Tricky part for the WSO was the fact that the video was not horizon-stabilized, so the image would rotate into some odd positions - or worse you would get "de-rotation" when the pod head reached its gimbal limits and re-oriented itself - it that happened during the last seconds of a lased delivery it could cause a miss.

There was definitely a steep learning curve in getting good using a Spike, but it was a lot of fun once mastered.

Vulture 

[mkellytx]

3 hours ago, Kirk66 said:

Spike was actually better for medium altitude LGB deliveries than Tack because of the location of the pod - it was forward of the wing so you could lase the target in a continuous left hand turn - with Tack you had to turn away and bunt, basically. Once the WSO found the target and started to manually track it, the weapon was released (parameters not too critical, it's a GBU-12 after all) then the pilot would offset to the right then reverse to the left until bomb impact. Tricky part for the WSO was the fact that the video was not horizon-stabilized, so the image would rotate into some odd positions - or worse you would get "de-rotation" when the pod head reached its gimbal limits and re-oriented itself - it that happened during the last seconds of a lased delivery it could cause a miss.

There was definitely a steep learning curve in getting good using a Spike, but it was a lot of fun once mastered.

Vulture 

Would love to hear your take on low level deliveries with either pod.

[Harlikwin]

On 2/3/2022 at 2:22 PM, Super Grover said:

Yes, on the DSCG, I thought about the displays as that is how I understood the discussion above. The rest, I think, I answered in my first comment. Yes, we want the DSCG aircraft to have Pave Spike, and yes, we're thinking about Pave Tack for DMAS, but it's too soon to say that it's going to be there for sure.

Do you guys know what the actual laseable ranges/alts were with Pave Tac and Pave spike? Or is it just gonna be the standard cheezy 8 mile or whatever it is limit in DCS like everything else? 

Edited February 18, 2022 by Harlikwin