in progress ITR and G-Onset update, release date ?

[Blinky.ben]

2 hours ago, Hummingbird said:

 

It's not about giving credit or trust, in real life things can happen that can/will set back things, but how are we supposed to know if any such thing has happened or not when nothing is said? It's always best to be proactive and quel the very natural worries your customers will get if nothing happens for many months without any word. 

I mean there's a reason posts & threads about this subject keep popping up, it's not because people can't wait or want to annoy you guys for sport or something. The communication could simply be better. 

A brief heads up on any/or no progress regarding the FM in the F16 newletters and I'm sure everyone will be as patient and understanding as they've been with the Apache, where the communication was great(= credit)

 

I believe what NineLine is pointing out is that there are actually a lot of teams working on a lot of features that we know about and features that are kept a surprise. So if they we’re to do a weekly report then it would have to be on everything because you can’t do it for one and not the others, which would end up being a very time consuming exercise. I’m not saying I disagree with your point because it would be nice to have regular updates particularly on the FM for the F-16, But I appreciate that there is more going on then what most realise in terms of features being developed in the background.

[Hummingbird]

49 minutes ago, Blinky.ben said:

I believe what NineLine is pointing out is that there are actually a lot of teams working on a lot of features that we know about and features that are kept a surprise. So if they we’re to do a weekly report then it would have to be on everything because you can’t do it for one and not the others, which would end up being a very time consuming exercise. I’m not saying I disagree with your point because it would be nice to have regular updates particularly on the FM for the F-16, But I appreciate that there is more going on then what most realise in terms of features being developed in the background.

 

I totally understand that, but I think some things are obviously more important to the community than others - case in point being the FM, which I think it's fair to assume is highest on most peoples list of things they want to see addressed first. So IMHO it won't be hard to predict, what the few most important things to keep the community up to date on, are going to be.

In summary: If the devs focus on keeping communication flowing on the fewer more anticipated updates/fixes to a module, then I believe they will save themselves and the community a lot of frustration.

[Datajack]

FM update will come eventually, just like everything else that's missing.  I'm looking forward to a completed Viper like everyone else.  I would prefer they take the time to do things right than rush out bad implementations.  

[Sarge55]

So, if I understand the concern correctly if ED gives an update on the FM then all the other update info requests will go away.  That seems a bit of a stretch. 
 

[Jackjack171]

I normally would stay part of the silent majority but not now. It seems some need to circle back to what Early access is! ED has never just forgot about anything! 

But this also goes back to the "can't please everyone" line. Updates or no updates=rage! A product put out as wished but still not up to snuff for some=rage! I've purchased every EA bird...including the Apache! And I'm still having fun with them all! I only notice discrepancies when I come to the forums for crying out loud! Have some faith guys! And have some fun!

Let the Devs work! The job is probably hard enough without all of the added heat of having to answer questions to the few that very well knew what "Early access" means! 

No disrespect to anyone, just my 2 cents!

[NineLine]

19 hours ago, Hummingbird said:

 

I totally understand that, but I think some things are obviously more important to the community than others - case in point being the FM, which I think it's fair to assume is highest on most peoples list of things they want to see addressed first. So IMHO it won't be hard to predict, what the few most important things to keep the community up to date on, are going to be.

In summary: If the devs focus on keeping communication flowing on the fewer more anticipated updates/fixes to a module, then I believe they will save themselves and the community a lot of frustration.

If only the world was that simple, and I am sure in a thread about the Viper FM, the Viper FM is the most important update to be updated on, but that's a narrow view of the community as a whole. 

As we have said over and over many times, just be patient and when there is an update we will let you know, and give us some credit not to forget important things. 

[wilbur81]

32 minutes ago, Jackjack171 said:

I normally would stay part of the silent majority but not now. It seems some need to circle back to what Early access is! ED has never just forgot about anything! 

But this also goes back to the "can't please everyone" line. Updates or no updates=rage! A product put out as wished but still not up to snuff for some=rage! I've purchased every EA bird...including the Apache! And I'm still having fun with them all! I only notice discrepancies when I come to the forums for crying out loud! Have some faith guys! And have some fun!

Let the Devs work! The job is probably hard enough without all of the added heat of having to answer questions to the few that very well knew what "Early access" means! 

No disrespect to anyone, just my 2 cents!

Hear Hear! Good post. 

[Wychmaster]

This whole discussion reminds me of my stepmother who keeps constantly asking me about when I will finish my PhD-thesis and tells me what she thinks I have to do to get it done. She never studied something that qualifies her to judge the quality of the work I am doing and never wrote a PhD-thesis herself. Still, she thinks to know exactly what I have to do and always starts a discussion when I tell her it will take longer than expected

The point here is, that even some things that seam easy to an outsider might turn out as a total nightmare once you get into it.

I don't know how ED is approaching the whole flight model but in the end it is a simplified model with some tweaking parameters that will never match the data 100% to begin with. Getting such a model as close at it can get to the real data without any major inaccuracies in some areas is an art of its own. I have already done that for way more simple cases. It isn't fun, it isn't easy and you simply can't predict when you will get it right. Sometimes it is pure luck. At least I had the benefit that I could decide that the results were good enough without anybody else complaining...

So to everybody who thinks he or she knows what ED has to do: 

Get over the peak...

Dunning-Kruger Effect (click me)

 

[falconbr]

22 hours ago, Datajack said:

FM update will come eventually, just like everything else that's missing.  I'm looking forward to a completed Viper like everyone else.  I would prefer they take the time to do things right than rush out bad implementations.  

Right in the center...!!!

Almost all systems, weapons employment procedures, HUD/MFD symbology is unfinished or wrong implemented.

Seems that ED forgot that the Viper is iconic aircraft, flown in 25 countries, one of most produced aircraft, the documentation for development of simulation is easy to obtain, that is highly popular aircraft among flight simulation enthusiast around the world, etc...

So, I think that DSC F-16 must deserve better attention from ED, if they wont to be benchmark of F-16 simulation, that is proclaimed in the beginning.

There are to many bugs so far, and I am not sure that ED is capable / willing to finish this simulation completely.

The other way is to ED let go to some of licensed third party to finish this simulation. For example, to make that deal with Heat blur Simulations.

Best regards,

falconbr

[Hotel Tango]

...What?
The module itself is in early access. By definition nothing in this module is final or finished.

[Hummingbird]

On 2/3/2022 at 5:40 PM, Datajack said:

FM update will come eventually, just like everything else that's missing.  I'm looking forward to a completed Viper like everyone else.  I would prefer they take the time to do things right than rush out bad implementations.  

I also prefer they take the time needed to make things right, that's not at all the issue. I can wait a looong time if need be. The issue is the communication, which is obviously leading people in the dark as to the reasons behind the delay, and as such naturally they will start asking what's up. If the delay is due to complexity and therefore extra time needed, no'one in their right mind would complain, as long as its communicated, otherwise how would we know? But if its due simply to being down prioritized over say a jammerpod (which I'm not claiming they did btw, it's just an example), well then obviously some people are going to be rightfully kind of annoyed, seeing as in ED's own poll it was made quite clear what people wanted to be addressed first -> the FM, unsurprisingly as we're a flight sim community.

Edited February 4, 2022 by Hummingbird

[Hummingbird]

7 hours ago, Wychmaster said:

This whole discussion reminds me of my stepmother who keeps constantly asking me about when I will finish my PhD-thesis and tells me what she thinks I have to do to get it done. She never studied something that qualifies her to judge the quality of the work I am doing and never wrote a PhD-thesis herself. Still, she thinks to know exactly what I have to do and always starts a discussion when I tell her it will take longer than expected

The point here is, that even some things that seam easy to an outsider might turn out as a total nightmare once you get into it.

I don't know how ED is approaching the whole flight model but in the end it is a simplified model with some tweaking parameters that will never match the data 100% to begin with. Getting such a model as close at it can get to the real data without any major inaccuracies in some areas is an art of its own. I have already done that for way more simple cases. It isn't fun, it isn't easy and you simply can't predict when you will get it right. Sometimes it is pure luck. At least I had the benefit that I could decide that the results were good enough without anybody else complaining...

So to everybody who thinks he or she knows what ED has to do: 

Get over the peak...

Dunning-Kruger Effect (click me)

 

You're totally misinterpreting what is being said. The issue here is not a lack of understanding that some things take time, it's about actually communicating it.

In your analogy you're doing the exact opposite of ED in this case and actually communicating that there will be a delay, which your stepmother is ignoring thinking she knows what you should do, which no'one has done toward ED here. All that is being asked is that delays are announced, just as they were with the Apache, not that ED should work in a specific way. Just communicate, that's all.

[Hummingbird]

22 hours ago, NineLine said:

If only the world was that simple, and I am sure in a thread about the Viper FM, the Viper FM is the most important update to be updated on, but that's a narrow view of the community as a whole. 

As we have said over and over many times, just be patient and when there is an update we will let you know, and give us some credit not to forget important things. 

 

Erm.. you made a poll specifically asking what people wanted addressed first, IIRC the FM was high, if not highest on that list. So I think claiming it's just an issue in a specific thread is simplifying things a wee bit too much.

Also I'm very patient. Haven't heard me complain about any announced delays. Why? Because of the simple fact they were announced/communicated, and I have no reason to question a decision to delay something in the pursuit of quality, to me that's just a sign of values being in the proper place. Hence why I applaud the communication on the Apache module, to me its a perfect example on how to keep the community up to date on things, and thus avoiding the same type threads asking "what's going on??" popping up all the time. In short ED is perfectly capable of proper communication, so why not extend that to all the modules? It would only make everybodys lives, incl. your own so much easier.

Edited February 4, 2022 by Hummingbird

[Datajack]

1 hour ago, Hummingbird said:

I also prefer they take the time needed to make things right, that's not at all the issue. I can wait a looong time if need be. The issue is the communication, which is obviously leading people in the dark as to the reasons behind the delay, and as such naturally they will start asking what's up. If the delay is due to complexity and therefore extra time needed, no'one in their right mind would complain, as long as its communicated, otherwise how would we know? But if its due simply to being down prioritized over say a jammerpod (which I'm not claiming they did btw, it's just an example), well then obviously some people are going to be rightfully kind of annoyed, seeing as in ED's own poll it was made quite clear what people wanted to be addressed first -> the FM, unsurprisingly as we're a flight sim community.

 

If that is the case, then I would advise ED to never say anything at all.  Its out when its out.   Works great for BMS group.  As a developer myself,  I can tell you that some things are just not that easy.  They take time.  In some cases much more time that originally thought.   The FM is complex, in fact I would go as far as guessing its the most complex part of aircraft modeling.   Again, I would just advise ED to make it policy to say nothing at all.   Continue to give updates for all current early access modules, but make it clear that all future modules (starting with the Apache) will get no updates.  You find out when the patch comes out.   Like I said before, it works for BMS. 

[Jackjack171]

2 hours ago, falconbr said:

Right in the center...!!!

Almost all systems, weapons employment procedures, HUD/MFD symbology is unfinished or wrong implemented.

Seems that ED forgot that the Viper is iconic aircraft, flown in 25 countries, one of most produced aircraft, the documentation for development of simulation is easy to obtain, that is highly popular aircraft among flight simulation enthusiast around the world, etc...

So, I think that DSC F-16 must deserve better attention from ED, if they wont to be benchmark of F-16 simulation, that is proclaimed in the beginning.

There are to many bugs so far, and I am not sure that ED is capable / willing to finish this simulation completely.

The other way is to ED let go to some of licensed third party to finish this simulation. For example, to make that deal with Heat blur Simulations.

Best regards,

falconbr

It is in very poor taste to try and tell someone else how to run their company and operations! Come on bro... you guys can't be that impatient!

[NineLine]

1 hour ago, Hummingbird said:

 

Erm.. you made a poll specifically asking what people wanted addressed first, IIRC the FM was high, if not highest on that list. So I think claiming it's just an issue in a specific thread is simplifying things a wee bit too much.

Also I'm very patient. Haven't heard me complain about any announced delays. Why? Because of the simple fact they were announced/communicated, and I have no reason to question a decision to delay something in the pursuit of quality, to me that's just a sign of values being in the proper place. Hence why I applaud the communication on the Apache module, to me its a perfect example on how to keep the community up to date on things, and thus avoiding the same type threads asking "what's going on??" popping up all the time. In short ED is perfectly capable of proper communication, so why not extend that to all the modules? It would only make everybodys lives, incl. your own so much easier.

 

Because its high on a user poll doesn't mean it is easier or faster to do.

As for your patience, I have yet to see it as you are either starting these threads or one of the first people to jump into them. Every time these threads are posted we say the same things, and if any new info is release its NEVER in one of these threads.

Again, your idea of "perfect communication" is not realistic if you take all that ED is working on, not one issue. You guys frustrate yourselves by asking the same questions over and over and expecting a new answer. If we had news on the FM, do you know think we would be overjoyed to share it? Please don't trash our communication skills based on that assessment, can you guys see why we close these threads so often?

Thanks.

[Datajack]

Actually I am reading what you said.  You said its a communication issue.  In fact you've said it twice.  So my solution is simple.  There is no communication.  We find out when we read the patch notes, or watch a video from Wags.  I would rather they focus the F-16 and not waste time having to deal with threads like this one.

[NineLine]

Here we are once again, look guys, you are not going to get updates asking in a random forum post, those come through Official update posts, YT, newsletters and social media, these threads where you tell us everything we are doing wrong and how we should fix it are not needed. I tried keeping this one open as long as I could but its just gonna be another one were people bicker and fight and make odd claims and rude assumptions. 

We said what is left to do on the FM, that is what is left to do. Because many people want it doesn't make it faster or easier to do, we simply put hands down 100% have the most complex complete FM out there, proven time and time again, as such we cant just tell it to do this or ask it to do that. Any changes and updates have to be carefully assessed, tested and retested, this is a marathon, not a race, and when done, we will have the best Viper FM available, period, the end.

If you really truly need to ask about an update, PM me or BIGNEWY.

Thanks.