Naval Phantom Variant

[WolfHound009]

I’m curious weather the Naval Variant from HB will be the Bravo or the Juliet Phantom ? What are the differences between the two ?

 

 

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[eatthis]

did any naval phantoms have the internal gun?

[WolfHound009]

did any naval phantoms have the internal gun?

I don’t think so I think it was just the E that had the internal Vulcan. I think Naval Phantoms carried a gun pod.


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[Northstar98]

2 hours ago, WolfHound009 said:

I’m curious weather the Naval Variant from HB will be the Bravo or the Juliet Phantom ? What are the differences between the two ?

I'm guessing it'll be the S or J, which best fits their Forrestal.

So far, from what I've found the differences between the B and J are:

• F-4B has a pulse-only RADAR (AN/APQ-72) whereas the J has a pulse-doppler RADAR (AN/APG-59 w/ AN/AWG-10) with full LDSD capability.
• F-4B has an IRST system (AN/AAA-4) under the nose, this was deleted in later Phantoms
• F-4B has J79-GE-8A/8B engines, F-4J has J79-GE-10 engines with slightly more thrust (~5% improvement in max thrust)
• F-4J has VTAS (super early HMD) allowing for off-boresight targeting for AIM-9s (I'm guessing variants with SEAM).
• F-4J has larger main landing gear tyres, resulting in wing bulges.
• F-4J has drooping ailerons.
• F-4J has a zero-zero ejection seat.

[silverdevil]

the naval version sacrificed the gun for a better radar which was one of the first look down types. and much bigger.

[Bremspropeller]

1 hour ago, Northstar98 said:

I'm guessing it'll be the S or J, which best fits their Forrestal.

So far, from what I've found the differences between the B and J are:

• F-4B has a pulse-only RADAR (AN/APQ-72) whereas the J has a pulse-doppler RADAR (AN/APG-59 w/ AN/AWG-10) with full LDSD capability.
• F-4B has an IRST system (AN/AAA-4) under the nose, this was deleted in later Phantoms
• F-4B has J79-GE-8A/8B engines, F-4J has J79-GE-10 engines with slightly more thrust (~5% improvement in max thrust)
• F-4J has VTAS (super early HMD) allowing for off-boresight targeting for AIM-9s (I'm guessing variants with SEAM).
• F-4J has larger main landing gear tyres, resulting in wing bulges.
• F-4J has drooping ailerons.
• F-4J has a zero-zero ejection seat.

The J also has a slatted stabilator, which was later (just like the drooping aileron) retrofitted to the B and resulting N. The inboard leading edge droop was locked up in the J. Some Bs (and the resulting Ns) had that mod, too.

The B has a couple of sub-versions/ mod-standards due to the ongoing war in SEA. I think the IRST was later removed from the Bs, too.

Edited January 28, 2022 by Bremspropeller

[Northstar98]

3 minutes ago, Bremspropeller said:

The J also has a slatted stabilator, which was later (just like the drooping aileron) retrofitted to the B and resulting N. The inboard leading edge droop was locked up in the J. Some Bs (and the resulting Ns) had that mod, too.

The B has a couple of sub-versions/ mod-standards due to the ongoing war in SEA. I think the IRST was later removed from the Bs, too.

Cheers!

[silverdevil]

https://www.globalsecurity.org/military/systems/aircraft/f-4e.htm

[upyr1]

On 1/28/2022 at 5:01 AM, eatthis said:

did any naval phantoms have the internal gun?

No they did not, in fact it was a rarity that any of the Navy department's Phantoms even carried gun pods. They never had a lead computing gunsight to properly aim a gun

[Zad Fnark]

I know the ANG's D models carried gunpods.  I used to watch the MN ANG F-4Ds in Duluth leave in pairs.  One with a drogue and the other with a gunpod.  Shooting over Lake Superior, I guess.

[MiG21bisFishbedL]

@Zad Fnark Sounds exactly like what they were doing. It's not that far Northeast where Snoopy East MOA begins. Further east is restricted R-4305.

I'd suspect it's not a case of which variant, but variants. If we go by the F-4E, we're seeing a mark used in SEA and we're also seeing one for the late 70s and 80s.

Since the Naval Phant will be a separate product, I'd expect a similar arrangement with a Phantom we'd have seen in SEA, but then one that came later (Like the F-4S).

Man, I'd kill for the MiG-21 to get that kind of love. F-13 or PFM to go with the bis? Perfect.

Edited January 31, 2022 by MiG21bisFishbedL

[LanceCriminal86]

The F-4J and S fit that timeline for late Vietnam and then through the 80s, and the S was an upgrade of the Js so they're a logical pair. The B and N pairing would be a possibility but without as much "longevity", if only by a few years. It looks like the N joined the fleet in '73 and the last were retired from Navy use in '84. '83 was the last active duty cruise.

In contrast the J started being delivered in '66 and the S first hit the fleet in '79, the last reserve Navy use being '86 (and last Phantom traps and cat shots. Marines used them until '92 in the reserves.

If Vietnam ever actually happens, then it would make sense someday to revisit and do a B and C/D possibly, though even the B and C may have enough divergence in systems and visuals to make that a challenge.

As for the carriers:

Forrestal had Js from '74 (VF-11 and 31) until a single cruise in '82 with S (VF-74 and 103 aboard, probably the last before their conversion to Tomcats) before her SLEP and 11/31 returned with Tomcats in '86.

Saratoga had Js from '70 until they got Tomcats in the '84 cruise (after 2-3 year SLEP overhaul, probably included changes to catapults) with VF-103 and VF-74.

Ranger had Js from '68-'79 (VF-21 and VF-154) until VF-1 and 2 came aboard for the '80 cruise. Looks like her SLEP was after the '76 cruise, with one more F-4J cruise in '79 after it so I guess they did retain the ability to launch bridled or with the launch bar. Which makes sense as even with Tomcats and other launch bar jets the old A-3s and A-5s were still operating.

And of course Independence had Js from '68 through '80, a ~2 year SLEP, then Tomcats aboard for the '82 cruise.

To have more historical carrier use of the F-4S you'd almost have to have the Midway and/or Coral Sea. None of the Kitty Hawks or Kennedy had any cruises with them, nor Enterprise, or any of the Nimitz class. Which kind of stinks, but they were in use by the Marines so you can always include them from land bases or fudge them in a fictional scenario or deployment.

Who knows, Leatherneck is including a nice Essex with the Corsair, I suppose it shouldn't be totally out of the question that Midway, Coral Sea, or Franklin could maybe be considered with it. At this time I do not believe HB has any plans outside of completing the Forrestal class.

[Bremspropeller]

17 hours ago, upyr1 said:

No they did not, in fact it was a rarity that any of the Navy department's Phantoms even carried gun pods. They never had a lead computing gunsight to properly aim a gun

I think the Marines used the pods (maybe the MK4s?), but it looks like they weren't excatly a fan of them. Not the least because of reliability issues.

The J(UK) would carry the SUU-23.

4 hours ago, LanceCriminal86 said:

The F-4J and S fit that timeline for late Vietnam and then through the 80s, and the S was an upgrade of the Js so they're a logical pair. The B and N pairing would be a possibility but without as much "longevity", if only by a few years. It looks like the N joined the fleet in '73 and the last were retired from Navy use in '84. '83 was the last active duty cruise.

In contrast the J started being delivered in '66 and the S first hit the fleet in '79, the last reserve Navy use being '86 (and last Phantom traps and cat shots. Marines used them until '92 in the reserves.

Agree. If you think about it, in the early time-frame where the B is exclusive ('61-'66) there's not that much to do in terms of accurate match-ups and exciting missions. Unless you want to shoot a Farmer (and maybe soon a Fresco?) in the face with a crappy early Sparrow. Things only get more interesting when the B and J already do overlap (give or take a year or two). That's not saying that a late B and N doesn't make sense - they just don't add too much over what an early J and S wouldn't already do. So if you'd only do one naval version, do the J/S.

4 hours ago, LanceCriminal86 said:

If Vietnam ever actually happens, then it would make sense someday to revisit and do a B and C/D possibly, though even the B and C may have enough divergence in systems and visuals to make that a challenge.

I think that's the major challenge here. There's even enough changes between several branches of specialised Ds that would warrant making the D their own release with maybe two or three sub-variants*. The B and C are also different enough (e.g. landing gear differences, cockpit differences with real controls in the C), that releasing them in combination is probably already too much.

___

* Thinking of stuff like the clean-chinned early Ds, then the "standard" Ds with the AIM-4, then the "modded" Ds with AIM-9, LORAN-birds, Combat Tree airplanes, etc. Some of those might be combined.

[Paladin1cd]

18 hours ago, LanceCriminal86 said:

The F-4J and S fit that timeline for late Vietnam and then through the 80s, and the S was an upgrade of the Js so they're a logical pair. The B and N pairing would be a possibility but without as much "longevity", if only by a few years. It looks like the N joined the fleet in '73 and the last were retired from Navy use in '84. '83 was the last active duty cruise.

In contrast the J started being delivered in '66 and the S first hit the fleet in '79, the last reserve Navy use being '86 (and last Phantom traps and cat shots. Marines used them until '92 in the reserves.

If Vietnam ever actually happens, then it would make sense someday to revisit and do a B and C/D possibly, though even the B and C may have enough divergence in systems and visuals to make that a challenge.

As for the carriers:

Forrestal had Js from '74 (VF-11 and 31) until a single cruise in '82 with S (VF-74 and 103 aboard, probably the last before their conversion to Tomcats) before her SLEP and 11/31 returned with Tomcats in '86.

Saratoga had Js from '70 until they got Tomcats in the '84 cruise (after 2-3 year SLEP overhaul, probably included changes to catapults) with VF-103 and VF-74.

Ranger had Js from '68-'79 (VF-21 and VF-154) until VF-1 and 2 came aboard for the '80 cruise. Looks like her SLEP was after the '76 cruise, with one more F-4J cruise in '79 after it so I guess they did retain the ability to launch bridled or with the launch bar. Which makes sense as even with Tomcats and other launch bar jets the old A-3s and A-5s were still operating.

And of course Independence had Js from '68 through '80, a ~2 year SLEP, then Tomcats aboard for the '82 cruise.

To have more historical carrier use of the F-4S you'd almost have to have the Midway and/or Coral Sea. None of the Kitty Hawks or Kennedy had any cruises with them, nor Enterprise, or any of the Nimitz class. Which kind of stinks, but they were in use by the Marines so you can always include them from land bases or fudge them in a fictional scenario or deployment.

Who knows, Leatherneck is including a nice Essex with the Corsair, I suppose it shouldn't be totally out of the question that Midway, Coral Sea, or Franklin could maybe be considered with it. At this time I do not believe HB has any plans outside of completing the Forrestal class.

Unfortunately we tend to have a hodgepodge of carriers, aircraft, ships, etc. We have carriers now that we can't deploy past 2006 as there was only one deployment with a F/A-18C compliment as far as I can tell, and that's when the Tomcat was retired. Plus we are simulating an era that clearly had stealth but we have no stealth a/c. Looks like the best we will be able to do is put the Forrestal off the coast with F-4s. 

Maybe by the time I'm 60 and can't see the screen anymore we will have a time period that's mostly doable. Problem is I'm closer to that than I'd like and I doubt I'll be able to enjoy it then. 

[Fangs Out]

Also J's and S's have the PD radar which are very capable. And The S is pretty cool with its slats and late sparrows and winders

 

[Cdodders]

[WolfHound009]

ROLLS ROYCE SPEYS!!!!


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[MiG21bisFishbedL]

7 hours ago, WolfHound009 said:

ROLLS ROYCE SPEYS!!!!


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American Phantom crews were like "Aww yeah, we got some thrust."

British Phantom jockeys?
 

 

[Avimimus]

The IRST sounds interesting to me. Even if it wasn't that effective and only worked at night (or something) it'd give a bit of that sneak attack capability we're so familiar with from Sukhois and Migs.

[Biggus]

On 2/3/2022 at 10:52 AM, Fangs Out said:

Also J's and S's have the PD radar which are very capable. And The S is pretty cool with its slats and late sparrows and winders

 

Js also ended up with the 7F and 9M.  The 7F and the 9L were in service on Js while Js were still at sea.  For me, the biggest benefit for the S is getting a second radio.

[LanceCriminal86]

1 hour ago, Avimimus said:

The IRST sounds interesting to me. Even if it wasn't that effective and only worked at night (or something) it'd give a bit of that sneak attack capability we're so familiar with from Sukhois and Migs.

The reality of the IRST on the Phantom and Tomcat A seems to consistently be that it was useless. Completely.

[WolfHound009]

The reality of the IRST on the Phantom and Tomcat A seems to consistently be that it was useless. Completely.

How did these early IRSTs work? Like was it an IR TV image or something?


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[r4y30n]

No, that’s actually how modern IRSTs and missile seekers work (imaging focal plane array sensors). The old ones likely had the equivalent of one pixel that would be scanned like radar but with a mirror instead of a dish.

[Dragon1-1]

I think we might get a whole set. Differences between B and J weren't that great, on order of going from IRIAF Tomcat to the F-14B. HB is using some sort of modular cockpit system, so it might be feasible to add the early models as a bonus. Differences between C, D and E model are also largely incremental, in fact short of specialized variants and export versions, there was no revolution anywhere in Phantom's history, like what happened in F-14D and F-16C. 

[F1GHTS-ON]

Despite USN F-4s not carrying gunpods (although as mentioned in another post the UK 's 4th branch of the military did on their -J's), any DCS short nosed F-4 is clearly going to get covered  F-4C/D skins by a very sizeable number of players. So whilst not historically accurate in USN service, I would hope expect a gunpod option. (Historical accuracy...... you ALL know you're going to try and land the -E on the carrier whilst we wait for the naval phantom.)

 

Edited February 4, 2022 by F1GHTS-ON