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F-4E is USAF variant.


DmitriKozlowsky

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19 hours ago, SgtPappy said:

Did you feel like the TISEO wasn't worth the drag/handling penalty? I really enjoy how the TCS is modeled in DCS and I'm pretty excited to use it in the F-4E. Similarly @Victory205, did you find the TCS really useful when you trained/deployed?

It sounds like HB will give us a choice since their earlier F-4E will not have it.

Eh, TISEO was OK when it worked; but probably not worth the drag or the workload. APX-80A (Combat Tree, essentially), however, was really nice!

I did get a big scare from TISEO one day during a DACT engagement against some Vipers; I had locked up a 16 with the radar just as he turned into the fight, then went eyeballs outside to clear our wingman's 6; when I came back into the cockpit I had somehow selected TV on the scope and instead of seeing a radar display I saw the nose of a Viper head on that looked REALLY CLOSE!  Of course, it was just magnified, and we just passed beak to beak, but I didn't expect our radar to maintain the lock or cue the TISEO that well. Normally, you had to spend time calibrating the TISEO to your radar then switch from radar to TV then search around and by then an F-5 was giving you pipper burns on the back of your helmet...

Vulture


Edited by Kirk66
typo and correctness
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On 2/6/2022 at 1:21 PM, Kirk66 said:

I may be wrong but I thought the USAF jets had the same main gear as the Navy (why change?) except for the bigger lower pressure tires - which were also on the Marine F-4B/Js, I think. Nose gear strut may be different - didn't the Navy struts extend for takeoff? I know the Brits' F-4s had a longer extending nose strut, at least. USAF nose struts didn't extend, for sure.

I trained in Cs at Luke (some of which still had Mig kill stars on them!) and they were pretty close to an F-4B - BLC flaps, short nose, etc. They were actually nicer to fly than the later slatted E's in my opinion; faster on the deck and a lot more stable on final approach (which makes sense). Just don't use any aileron at high AOA! New WSOs were told to keep their knees together when their student pilot was maneuvering at high AOA to force him to use the rudder to roll by limiting sideways movement of the stick - rudder worked so well you could do 4-point rolls using rudder only. But if you let some aileron creep in out of habit the jet would depart rather aggressively in the opposite direction!

I'm really looking forward to see how well all the Phantom's quirks are modelled in DCS.

Cheers,

Vulture

A lot has to do with where the landing gear is located - most modern jets have the main gear mounted on the fuselage, leaving room anywhere on the wings for stores. The F-4s main gear extends almost all the way to the fold, so the external tanks (or stores) have to be out there to clear the gear. Note that the inboard pylons are forward of the landing gear; any store mounted on them cannot extend back past the rear of the pylon.

Vulture

I'm pretty sure the B-57 and B-61 both extended past the end of the inboard pylon by a few inches. Sidewinders on AERO-3B's and bombs loaded on TERs didn't though but those nukes were kinda long as I recall. Kinda fat too. 

Actually, that's wrong. I'd forgotten just how far forward the bomb rack was mounted in that inboard pylon.

 

https://phantomphacts.blogspot.com/2018/10/the-f-4-inboard-pylons.html

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On 2/6/2022 at 10:50 PM, SgtPappy said:

Similarly @Victory205, did you find the TCS really useful when you trained/deployed?

Absolutely. We used it constantly for a host of tasks. It saved fuel and time, helped in intelligence gathering, in addition to the basic tactical employment. The one aspect that could have been better is that the camera resolved better than the screens, so we were leaving something on the table.

On video playback, the monitors and recordings had better specs than the aircraft, so in the debrief, you'd be looking clearly at a particular aircraft type, while listening to the crew in flight discussing what it might be. No 4K monitors onboard, back in the day. 

We understood that, and would often "capture" an object of interest without being able to tell what it was for viewing later by the Intelligence Wizards on a better viewing setup.

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Viewpoints are my own.

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8 hours ago, Elf1606688794 said:

I'm pretty sure the B-57 and B-61 both extended past the end of the inboard pylon by a few inches. Sidewinders on AERO-3B's and bombs loaded on TERs didn't though but those nukes were kinda long as I recall. Kinda fat too. 

Actually, that's wrong. I'd forgotten just how far forward the bomb rack was mounted in that inboard pylon.

 

https://phantomphacts.blogspot.com/2018/10/the-f-4-inboard-pylons.html

Pretty sure F-4 instant sunshine were single bomb only, centreline mounted.

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16 hours ago, Kirk66 said:

Eh, TISEO was OK when it worked; but probably not worth the drag or the workload. APX-80A (Combat Tree, essentially), however, was really nice!

I did get a big scare from TISEO one day during a DACT engagement against some Vipers; I had locked up a 16 with the radar just as he turned into the fight, then went eyeballs outside to clear our wingman's 6; when I came back into the cockpit I had somehow selected TV on the scope and instead of seeing a radar display I saw the nose of a Viper head on that looked REALLY CLOSE!  Of course, it was just magnified, and we just passed beak to beak, but I didn't expect our radar to maintain the lock or cue the TISEO that well. Normally, you had to spend time calibrating the TISEO to your radar then switch from radar to TV then search around and by then an F-5 was giving you pipper burns on the back of your helmet...

Vulture

 

What a surprise! Hopefully that F-16 was just as afraid as you were. Combat Tree sounds like it would be an awesome addition but I wonder if it can be modeled in DCS. I guess anyone flying a MiG with their transponder on could be made vulnerable although I'm not sure if the MiG-21 has this feature or if anyone would use it since SAMs rarely friendly fire.

 

11 hours ago, Victory205 said:

Absolutely. We used it constantly for a host of tasks. It saved fuel and time, helped in intelligence gathering, in addition to the basic tactical employment. The one aspect that could have been better is that the camera resolved better than the screens, so we were leaving something on the table.

On video playback, the monitors and recordings had better specs than the aircraft, so in the debrief, you'd be looking clearly at a particular aircraft type, while listening to the crew in flight discussing what it might be. No 4K monitors onboard, back in the day. 

We understood that, and would often "capture" an object of interest without being able to tell what it was for viewing later by the Intelligence Wizards on a better viewing setup.

I still don't own a 4k anything now... so I get it. But it sounds very useful, I would imagine. That big ol' CRT TV in both birds was something I think other planes didn't really have at the time. I use the thing so much in DCS just to look at stuff, even if I'm just flying around, I think I've become spoiled. 

Thanks to both of you for the insight.


Edited by SgtPappy
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2 hours ago, G.J.S said:

Pretty sure F-4 instant sunshine were single bomb only, centreline mounted.

F-4 could carry the B-61 and B-57 on both the centerline rack and both inboard pylons. I had to certify with both muntions on both stations.

Could it carry more than one at a time? Maybe, maybe not but I'm not sure why they would, nukes are pretty darn effective one at a time.


Edited by Elf1606688794
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3 hours ago, G.J.S said:

Pretty sure F-4 instant sunshine were single bomb only, centreline mounted.

The lines I sat had 3 bags of gas and 2 B-61s.  I remember one line had an active SA-2 site as the IP - thanks, mission planners! Had just enough gas to get feet wet in full AB then punch out...

I once briefed my strike line (required for annual Nuc cert) to the wing staff with an arm in a cast (motorcycle accident). After I had finished, the wing commander asked what I would do if the balloon went up tomorrow (looking at my arm). "Take off the cast and go fly" was the only answer, of course. Young and foolish, yes, but I would do it again, with the same answer.

Vulture

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2 hours ago, Elf1606688794 said:

F-4 could carry the B-61 and B-57 on both the centerline rack and both inboard pylons. I had to certify with both muntions on both stations.

Could it carry more than one at a time? Maybe, maybe not but I'm not sure why they would, nukes are pretty darn effective one at a time.

 

 

1 hour ago, Kirk66 said:

The lines I sat had 3 bags of gas and 2 B-61s.  I remember one line had an active SA-2 site as the IP - thanks, mission planners! Had just enough gas to get feet wet in full AB then punch out...

I once briefed my strike line (required for annual Nuc cert) to the wing staff with an arm in a cast (motorcycle accident). After I had finished, the wing commander asked what I would do if the balloon went up tomorrow (looking at my arm). "Take off the cast and go fly" was the only answer, of course. Young and foolish, yes, but I would do it again, with the same answer.

Vulture

Understood. FGR2 was (for a while) centreline only, single round (B-43 or B-57).

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1 minute ago, Elf1606688794 said:

Wow, the FGR2 didn't even get a good nuke? What's this world coming to?

 

giphy.gif

Well, we ‘could’ get the good stuff from our American brethren - but since in extremis (U.S first) they may not have been forthcoming, it was those.

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23 hours ago, Kirk66 said:

My fini flight was in late 87. We didn't have the rails necessary for 9L/Ms; we still had Aero-3 without the fin retainers needed for the gucci 9Ls, so were stuck with E/J/Ps. Don't recall ever seeing a USAF E with the L rails - but I think the Wild Weasel Gs finally got them.

 

This gentleman will gladly sell you an F-4E with 9Ms, a year supply of argon and a free complimentary load of chaff and flares 🙂

 

 

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1 hour ago, Victory205 said:

What nukes? Never heard of 'em...

They were retired early - mid 90’s.

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4 hours ago, some1 said:

This gentleman will gladly sell you an F-4E with 9Ms, a year supply of argon and a free complimentary load of chaff and flares 🙂

 

 

Hahahahaha...I haven't seen this video in years.  Still makes me giggle though.

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Can't pretend fly as well as you can.

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7 hours ago, G.J.S said:

Well, we ‘could’ get the good stuff from our American brethren - but since in extremis (U.S first) they may not have been forthcoming, it was those.

The silver lining there is that there's a few less DIY sunrises to be managed.

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Reformers hate him! This one weird trick found by a bush pilot will make gunfighter obsessed old farts angry at your multi-role carrier deck line up!

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18 hours ago, some1 said:

This gentleman will gladly sell you an F-4E with 9Ms, a year supply of argon and a free complimentary load of chaff and flares 🙂

 

 

Yep, those Guard pukes got all the cool stuff... ;^)

20 hours ago, Elf1606688794 said:

Wow, the FGR2 didn't even get a good nuke? What's this world coming to?

 

giphy.gif

Well, one could argue that any nuke is good enough as long as you get it to the right place and it goes off!

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2 hours ago, SuperEtendard said:

@Kirk66 In which year did you start your career on the F-4E?

My first flight in an F-4E was as a USAFA Cadet in 1972 (At Homestead AFB), then several more cadet orientation flights in RF-4Cs at Shaw AFB in 1973. I started F-4C RTU at Luke AFB in Jan 1977, and my first operational unit was the 36th TFS at Osan AB ROK starting in September 1977 in F-4Es - big jump from the old C's I had trained in! F-4E fini flight in Oct 87 at Seymour Johnson AFB.

Vulture

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3 hours ago, Kirk66 said:

My first flight in an F-4E was as a USAFA Cadet in 1972 (At Homestead AFB), then several more cadet orientation flights in RF-4Cs at Shaw AFB in 1973. I started F-4C RTU at Luke AFB in Jan 1977, and my first operational unit was the 36th TFS at Osan AB ROK starting in September 1977 in F-4Es - big jump from the old C's I had trained in! F-4E fini flight in Oct 87 at Seymour Johnson AFB.

Vulture


Nice, do you know when exactly did the F-4Es start to get the chaff and flares countermeasures retrofitted? I have heard it was around 1976 for chaff and then 1977 for flares but I haven't found concrete proof of it. The 1979 F-4E manual mentions the retrofit but it doesn't list a date from what I could see.

If this is correct I guess the early 74 version of the module wouldn't have them but they should be there for the late DMAS version?

 


Edited by SuperEtendard
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15 hours ago, SuperEtendard said:


Nice, do you know when exactly did the F-4Es start to get the chaff and flares countermeasures retrofitted? I have heard it was around 1976 for chaff and then 1977 for flares but I haven't found concrete proof of it. The 1979 F-4E manual mentions the retrofit but it doesn't list a date from what I could see.

If this is correct I guess the early 74 version of the module wouldn't have them but they should be there for the late DMAS version?

 

 

 I have read here and there (no credible sources unfortunately) that ALE-40 showed up between 74-75 on the F-4E (this forums conversation: http://aviationbanter.com/showthread.php?t=6438). I'm trying now to find a good source.

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29 minutes ago, SgtPappy said:

 I have read here and there (no credible sources unfortunately) that ALE-40 showed up between 74-75 on the F-4E (this forums conversation: http://aviationbanter.com/showthread.php?t=6438). I'm trying now to find a good source.

Think your timeframe is correct, RAF F-4 got them early ‘82.


Edited by G.J.S
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