VR Perspective - I feel small

[Hinkey]

VR perspective feels off. The cockpit seems too big on Valve Index (contrast with mig 15 that feels spot on). Also default head position seems low.

[Dangerzone]

That's interesting. I've always felt the opposite (in the G1) - as though I'm large and the objects outside are much smaller. Especially on the carrier. I feel like the men are 'mini men', etc. 

You can change the perspective in the cockpit however by adjusting the "Force IPD Distance" value. This only adjusts the feeling in the cockpit though - and not the outside world from what I've experienced - so may be what you're looking for. 

Depending on the aircraft you're in - there are also adjustable seats, although I tend to just move my head to the opposite of where I want it, and then press 5 to reset the view as a quick and simple solution to head position.

[Hinkey]

3 hours ago, Dangerzone said:

You can change the perspective in the cockpit however by adjusting the "Force IPD Distance" value

Thanks for the tip! I didn't know that is what that does. I'll try it out. It's not all aircraft where the scale seems off however, and as I recall Force IPD is a global setting. Only a few aircraft cockpits seem out of scale. As in this case F-86=I'm small, MiG-15=I'm a big boy now.

[Art-J]

Keep in mind relative size difference between planes themselves. MiG was a compact plane with a rather cramped cockpit - I can confirm after sitting in a museum plane once. Sabre is noticeably bigger aircraft, and even though I never had a chance of sitting in one, I'd expect its pit to be  more roomy, although how much? Can't say without tech drawings.

Edited February 1, 2022 by Art-J

[Rifter]

13 hours ago, Dangerzone said:

You can change the perspective in the cockpit however by adjusting the "Force IPD Distance" value. This only adjusts the feeling in the cockpit though - and not the outside world from what I've experienced - so may be what you're looking for.

Are you sure? On my side it scales everything including the map objects.
Perhaps not obvious to everyone when in cockpit, but when using outside camera options clearly perceptible.
Seems consistent to me since "Force IPD Distance" is nothing else than a misleading term for "world scale factor".

 

9 hours ago, Hinkey said:

Thanks for the tip! I didn't know that is what that does. I'll try it out. It's not all aircraft where the scale seems off however, and as I recall Force IPD is a global setting. Only a few aircraft cockpits seem out of scale. As in this case F-86=I'm small, MiG-15=I'm a big boy now.

As long as the different cockpits are scaled correctly the relation to each other (eg. Mig-15 to F-86) should be correct.

[Hinkey]

Thanks for the input guys. Been playing with IPD. It's been yielding some results.

[Taz1004]

8 hours ago, Rifter said:

As long as the different cockpits are scaled correctly the relation to each other (eg. Mig-15 to F-86) should be correct.

There's one other factor.  VR camera focal length.

IPD "in the game" adjusts the separation of left and right camera in the game.  This is different than physical IPD adjustment of your headset which separates left and right lens.  And if you separate the "in-game" left and right camera by increasing IPD, you're basically making your head in the game bigger.  Which in relation, make the world smaller.  So you are right that "in-game" IPD is more of "world scale" and many other games actually call it that.  And this adjustment mostly affects close objects than far distance.  Same way a car may seem huge to a child than adult.  But car that's 100 feet away would seem small to both child and adult.

But as I said, another factor that affects scale is the focal length of in-game camera.  And this has bigger impact than IPD (or world scale).  If you ever looked through binoculars backwards, everything will feel small.  And everything will look huge the other way.  All scale is correct and IPD is same.  But only the focal length of the lens changed.  In DCS I don't believe all modules have same focal length camera.  Some old modules have focal length that's not adequate for VR.  And maybe some 3rd party developers may use focal length that works for the headset they're testing on.  ED needs to define standard VR camera setting which I'm not sure if they're doing.

[Rifter]

18 hours ago, Taz1004 said:

There's one other factor.  VR camera focal length.

I was not aware of the fact that there is a focal length of in-game camera in VR as an additional factor besides the “world scaling” or what you correctly describe as left and right camera. Or are you refering to 2D visualization?

How do module creators bring that to use? Do they apply a distortion to the geometry itself to create the focal length effect? Or is there an additional setting of that parallel to the known "Force IPD Distance" and why are we not allowed to change that setting ourselves in the options?

All examples of cockpits being “off” in VR I know of are due to geometrically wrong modelling. For example a couple of enthusiast made modules estimate the overall cockpit height wrong (measured from floor pan to upper edge of instrument panel). Examples are the Alfa Jet or the F-104 where you can see in VR that there is not enough room for the pilot legs. The UH-60 is correctly dimensioned with respect to the fuselage but the cluster consisting of instrument panel, center console and seats is scaled too big which can be judged by looking at the remaining space between the instrument panel and the side of the fuselage or simply the width of the seats in relation to the rest of the helicopter.

Nothing of that could be corrected by focal length or world scale because it is simply modelled wrong in size and therefore the relation to the surrounding geometry will never match. When the whole cockpit is wrong in scale than at least "Force IPD Distance" can help.

Edited February 2, 2022 by Rifter

[Hiob]

In 2D you can get around this by adjusting the fov (aka zoom).

For VR zoom is locked, however, you can adjust the default value in the snapview.lua (as you can with all other dimensions, like head position and tilt).I just don't know for sure atm, if this value is read for VR.

Need to try.

Edited February 2, 2022 by Hiob

[Taz1004]

On 2/2/2022 at 9:26 AM, Rifter said:

I was not aware of the fact that there is a focal length of in-game camera in VR as an additional factor besides the “world scaling” or what you correctly describe as left and right camera. Or are you refering to 2D visualization?

How do module creators bring that to use? Do they apply a distortion to the geometry itself to create the focal length effect? Or is there an additional setting of that parallel to the known "Force IPD Distance" and why are we not allowed to change that setting ourselves in the options?

All examples of cockpits being “off” in VR I know of are due to geometrically wrong modelling. For example a couple of enthusiast made modules estimate the overall cockpit height wrong (measured from floor pan to upper edge of instrument panel). Examples are the Alfa Jet or the F-104 where you can see in VR that there is not enough room for the pilot legs. The UH-60 is correctly dimensioned with respect to the fuselage but the cluster consisting of instrument panel, center console and seats is scaled too big which can be judged by looking at the remaining space between the instrument panel and the side of the fuselage or simply the width of the seats in relation to the rest of the helicopter.

Nothing of that could be corrected by focal length or world scale because it is simply modelled wrong in size and therefore the relation to the surrounding geometry will never match. When the whole cockpit is wrong in scale than at least "Force IPD Distance" can help.

If I'm talking left and right camera, of course I'm talking VR.  Dev's don't "apply distortion".  If you ever used Unreal Engine, VR camera has focal length setting.  35, 75, 120....  Similar to your DSLR camera lens.  That's what I'm talking about.  That's what I don't believe is consistent across modules.

Ka-50 for years, people have been complaining about same type of "scale" issue in VR.  But the scale of the model was correct.  I used the overlay camera in Vive Pro to measure the virtual model and it in fact was modeled to scale.  But it still felt small.  And in a patch few months ago, ED corrected the focal length of the camera.

Focal length of VR camera is different from headset to headset.  It can also be different if you normally wear prescription glasses and take it off for VR.  Or if you use customized lens on your headset, then it can be different than people not using it etc...  many factors.

Compensating with IPD is global and affects all modules.  Even the ones that does have correct focal length.  I was saying for consistency, "ED" needs to define the standard focal length value ALL developers needs to use.  So at least the scale is consistent across all modules.  Or better, give users ability to adjust VR focal length like for 2D.

Perfect example is DeoVR Video Player.  It's free VR video player on SteamVR.  It gives you ability to change focal length of both eye and you can see how it affects scale.  And how it's different from IPD.  We need same type of adjustment in DCS.

Edited April 17, 2022 by Taz1004

[Rifter]

54 minutes ago, Taz1004 said:

If I'm talking left and right camera, of course I'm talking VR.  Dev's don't "apply distortion".  If you ever used Unreal Engine, VR camera has focal length setting.  35, 75, 120....  Similar to your DSLR camera lens.  That's what I'm talking about.  That's what I don't believe is consistent across modules.

Ka-50 for years, people have been complaining about same type of "scale" issue in VR.  But the scale of the model was correct.  I used the overlay camera in Vive Pro to measure the virtual model and it in fact was modeled to scale.  But it still felt small.  And in a patch few months ago, ED corrected the focal length of the camera.

Focal length of VR camera is different from headset to headset.  It can also be different if you normally wear prescription glasses and take it off for VR.  Or if you use customized lens on your headset, then it can be different than people not using it etc...  many factors.

Compensating with IPD is global and affects all modules.  Even the ones that does have correct focal length.  I was saying for consistency, "ED" needs to define the standard focal length value ALL developers needs to use.  So at least the scale is consistent across all modules.  Or better, give users ability to adjust VR focal length like for 2D.

Perfect example is DeoVR Video Player.  It's free VR video player on SteamVR.  It gives you ability to change focal length of each eye and you can see how it affects scale.  We need same type of adjustment in DCS.

 

Ok – now I understood. Was slow on the uptake here, my bad.

So the focal length is hardcoded in DSC and we can’t change it and it’s not even consistent throughout the modules (the latter makes me facepalm).

What you describe is funnily enough exactly what people often bothers when using VR headsets in the industry. When VR is used in architecture or car design people often complain about the virtual representation of objects not being to scale although the associated CAD data usually is correct.

[Hinkey]

8 hours ago, Taz1004 said:

Compensating with IPD is global and affects all modules.  Even the ones that does have correct focal length.  I was saying for consistency, "ED" needs to define the standard focal length value ALL developers needs to use.  So at least the scale is consistent across all modules. 

That seems to explain my experience. Most aircraft ok, but In a few the cockpits just appear too big.

[freehand]

In 2017 using the first oculus the scale was correct or more closer than it is now for instance when sitting in the A10 you had the sensation of being very high up when stationary when I first sat in the A10 in VR it scared me lol.  

Edited February 3, 2022 by freehand

[hannibal]

if your on valve index or reverb, when steamvr is running, go to the per application video settings.

i set dcs world scale to 104%.

[Taz1004]

12 minutes ago, hannibal said:

if your on valve index or reverb, when steamvr is running, go to the per application video settings.

i set dcs world scale to 104%.

That does same thing as DCS IPD adjustment.

[hannibal]

not for me.. it made the world way bigger...

ipd just makes it clearer..

[kablamoman]

I think it's a bit more likely the cockpit in the F86 is just roomier.

If you have your IPD set properly in an Index (with the index, you use the physical slider), it not only adjusts the physical space between the lenses, but it passes that value onto Steam VR, which in turn passes it on to DCS so it can set the proper world scale. The option in the DCS game options is just a manual override, but lets you adjust distance between the in-game "eyes" without moving the actual physical alignment of the lenses, which has the effect of letting you hack the world scale.

Feel free to correct me if I'm wrong about any of this.

Probably the best course of action is to accurately measure your IPD (it's pretty easy using a mirror and a ruler), make sure the IPD slider on your headset (or the software setting, if you use an oculus device without physical adjustment) is set correctly, and then make sure the in-game option is not checked so the game uses the Steam VR or oculus value.

If that's all set properly and a cockpit isn't to scale, it would be an issue with the cockpit not having been modeled to the correct dimensions, which I find hard to believe given the exacting nature of the sim and the full fidelity modules.

Edited February 6, 2022 by kablamoman

[Crash *]

vor 11 Stunden schrieb kablamoman:

If that's all set properly and a cockpit isn't to scale, it would be an issue with the cockpit not having been modeled to the correct dimensions, which I find hard to believe given the exacting nature of the sim and the full fidelity modules.

 

Set the hardware IPD according to your interpupillary distance.

Adjust the DCS Software IPD (World Scale) in a way that feels right for you. The stick is always a good reference here.

The old modules were created before VR glasses became widespread. So the values don't match exactly. The F-5, for example, is supposed to be modified accordingly at some point.

[Hinkey]

22 hours ago, Crash * said:

Set the hardware IPD according to your interpupillary distance.

Adjust the DCS Software IPD (World Scale) in a way that feels right for you. The stick is always a good reference here.

This technique seems to be working best for me. The stick is a good benchmark.