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Open Kneeboard for VR and 2d


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Anybody already tried the new Open Kneeboard by Fred Emmott? It looks very promising!

https://github.com/fredemmott/OpenKneeboard

I read that with the G2 there are still some performance issues, which I compare to VRK. So I will wait out a bit.

 

I fly an A-10C II in VR and post my DCS journey on Is your phone a YouTube Signature Device? - Gizmochina     |   Subscribe to my DCS A-10C channel   

Come check out the 132nd Virtual Wing                                   |   My 4090 VR Performance Optimization  
SYSTEM SPECS: Ryzen 7 5800X3D, RTX4090, Varjo Aero, VKB Gunfigher MKIII MCG Ultimate with 10cm extension,VPC MongoosT-50CM3 Throttle, VPC Control Panel #2, TM TPR Rudders. 64GB RAM, W10, Gametrix Jetseat, PointCTRL (currently broken), OpenKneeboard, Wacom Intuos.

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I would if i could figure out how to install this?
There's a docs folder in there but that doesn't say anything about how or where to install it...

Win11 Pro 64-bit, Ryzen 5800X3D, Corsair H115i, Gigabyte X570S UD, EVGA 3080Ti XC3 Ultra 12GB, 64 GB DDR4 G.Skill 3600. Monitors: LG 27GL850-B27 2560x1440 + Samsung SyncMaster 2443 1920x1200, HOTAS: Warthog with Virpil WarBRD base, MFG Crosswind combat pedals, TrackIR4, Rift-S.

Personal Wish List: A6 Intruder, Vietnam theater, decent ATC module, better VR performance!

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  • 3 weeks later...

Well, first an installer/Compiled Version would be a bold move to enable non-developers to try it out.

I am not sure, how many DCS players have a version of visual studio installed, or are well versed in building their own software from provided sources, maybe 1 out of 100 ?

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Shagrat

 

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9 hours ago, shagrat said:

maybe 1 out of 100 ?

I guess that's an over estimated guess... 🙂

 

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Win11 Pro 64-bit, Ryzen 5800X3D, Corsair H115i, Gigabyte X570S UD, EVGA 3080Ti XC3 Ultra 12GB, 64 GB DDR4 G.Skill 3600. Monitors: LG 27GL850-B27 2560x1440 + Samsung SyncMaster 2443 1920x1200, HOTAS: Warthog with Virpil WarBRD base, MFG Crosswind combat pedals, TrackIR4, Rift-S.

Personal Wish List: A6 Intruder, Vietnam theater, decent ATC module, better VR performance!

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While I appreciate anyone making anything for these games out of their own generosity, an EXE FILE would be nice...isn't this a duh, or is it me?

Derek "BoxxMann" Speare

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I intentionally did not initially release precompiled versions - and marked it in the README as intended for developers - because it's a pretty complex piece of software and was only tested on my computer. I wanted to keep the number of users, reported issues, and requests for help to a manageably low number in case it turned out to *only* work on my computer 😛

Things went better than that worst-case worry, and it's now released (with more documentation, and graphics tablet support) at https://github.com/fredemmott/OpenKneeboard/releases/latest

It'll hopefully be in user files once ED review

 

Quote

I read that with the G2 there are still some performance issues, which I compare to VRK. So I will wait out a bit.

This issue (https://github.com/fredemmott/OpenKneeboard/issues/21) doesn't seem to be a common one; the person reporting it has massive frame drops using any SteamVR overlay application - even fpsVR - and there are other G2 users of both fpsVR and OpenKneeboard without the same problem. If fpsVR/OVRToolkit/OVRDrop work for you, it feels pretty likely that OpenKneeboard will work for you. That said, while I've tested with SteamVR, I don't have any WMR headset to dig into stuff directly.

I've left the issue open until I'm certain about that, and that there's no reasonable workaround.

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My projects:

OpenKneeboard - VR and non-VR kneeboard with optional support for drawing tablets; get help
HTCC - Quest hand tracking for DCS; get help

If you need help with these projects, please use their 'get help' links above; I'm not able to track support requests on these forums.

 

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2 hours ago, actually_fred said:

I intentionally did not initially release precompiled versions - and marked it in the README as intended for developers - because it's a pretty complex piece of software and was only tested on my computer. I wanted to keep the number of users, reported issues, and requests for help to a manageably low number in case it turned out to *only* work on my computer 😛

Things went better than that worst-case worry, and it's now released (with more documentation, and graphics tablet support) at https://github.com/fredemmott/OpenKneeboard/releases/latest

It'll hopefully be in user files once ED review

 

This issue (https://github.com/fredemmott/OpenKneeboard/issues/21) doesn't seem to be a common one; the person reporting it has massive frame drops using any SteamVR overlay application - even fpsVR - and there are other G2 users of both fpsVR and OpenKneeboard without the same problem. If fpsVR/OVRToolkit/OVRDrop work for you, it feels pretty likely that OpenKneeboard will work for you. That said, while I've tested with SteamVR, I don't have any WMR headset to dig into stuff directly.

I've left the issue open until I'm certain about that, and that there's no reasonable workaround.

Great! Will try when I return home. Cheers

I fly an A-10C II in VR and post my DCS journey on Is your phone a YouTube Signature Device? - Gizmochina     |   Subscribe to my DCS A-10C channel   

Come check out the 132nd Virtual Wing                                   |   My 4090 VR Performance Optimization  
SYSTEM SPECS: Ryzen 7 5800X3D, RTX4090, Varjo Aero, VKB Gunfigher MKIII MCG Ultimate with 10cm extension,VPC MongoosT-50CM3 Throttle, VPC Control Panel #2, TM TPR Rudders. 64GB RAM, W10, Gametrix Jetseat, PointCTRL (currently broken), OpenKneeboard, Wacom Intuos.

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I use the kneeboard inside DCS (Vaicom Pro one at the moment) because somehow I can't get the SteamVR overlayed kneeboard at the same focal distance when I position the kneeboard on my lap, right besides the CDU. This causes me eyestrain and eye focus issues when going back and forth between kneeboard and CDU, for example when entering CDU flightplan. The second and most important reason for me using the in-game kneeboard is the performance hit I get with the SteamVR one. When I open the kneeboard in SteamVR my frametime takes a big hit and it becomes unplayable for me. I do like the functionality of the Virtual Kneeboard because of the chapters etc, so I hope it gets better. I am not using VR controllers for any the kneeboards. I use shortcuts on my hotas for browsing etc.


Edited by Ready

I fly an A-10C II in VR and post my DCS journey on Is your phone a YouTube Signature Device? - Gizmochina     |   Subscribe to my DCS A-10C channel   

Come check out the 132nd Virtual Wing                                   |   My 4090 VR Performance Optimization  
SYSTEM SPECS: Ryzen 7 5800X3D, RTX4090, Varjo Aero, VKB Gunfigher MKIII MCG Ultimate with 10cm extension,VPC MongoosT-50CM3 Throttle, VPC Control Panel #2, TM TPR Rudders. 64GB RAM, W10, Gametrix Jetseat, PointCTRL (currently broken), OpenKneeboard, Wacom Intuos.

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1 hour ago, winghunter said:

Im not sure why all the kneeboards are inside DCS.

Is it for performance reasons that you dont use steam vr overlays? Or because you dont want to deal with VR controllers?

Is this a question for me or for Ready?

if for me: if DCS is running in SteamVR mode, OpenKneeboard uses SteamVR overlays. If using Oculus or non-VR, there is no equivalent, so it must be in the game. If you delete DCS from OpenKneeboard's games list, you can run OpenKneeboard as a separate window or on another monitor without it rendering in game *except* for SteamVR - the SteamVR overlay can not be turned off if SteamVR is running.

As for VR controllers: to me, they're just not useful for DCS. Oculus SDK support would also be somewhat more complicated than it is right now.

Do you want an option to make it only appear when the steamvr dashboard is open?

My projects:

OpenKneeboard - VR and non-VR kneeboard with optional support for drawing tablets; get help
HTCC - Quest hand tracking for DCS; get help

If you need help with these projects, please use their 'get help' links above; I'm not able to track support requests on these forums.

 

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Im using my iPad in steamVR, but i need a good app to run on iPad. The apple notes pad is ok but not ideal.

I was wondering if I could somehow use a kneeboard app to run on iPad so i can use finger / stylus writing

 

54 minutes ago, Ready said:

I use the kneeboard inside DCS (Vaicom Pro one at the moment) because somehow I can't get the SteamVR overlayed kneeboard at the same focal distance when I position the kneeboard on my lap, right besides the CDU. This causes me eyestrain and eye focus issues when going back and forth between kneeboard and CDU, for example when entering CDU flightplan. The second and most important reason for me using the in-game kneeboard is the performance hit I get with the SteamVR one. When I open the kneeboard in SteamVR my frametime takes a big hit and it becomes unplayable for me. I do like the functionality of the Virtual Kneeboard because of the chapters etc, so I hope it gets better. I am not using VR controllers for any the kneeboards. I use shortcuts on my hotas for browsing etc.

 

I noticed a performance hit right when i move the controller, so my iPad kneeboard fades into view through steamVR. But once its in view i didnt notice any performance drop. But i need to compare framerates to be sure.


Edited by winghunter

DCS Web Editor - New 3D Mission Editor for DCS that runs in your browser

DCS Web Viewer free browser based mission planner / viewer

dcs web editor new(2).png
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Ah; I suspect there's a common reason there's not DCS iPad apps:

To make a VR app work well on Windows *without* an iPad or similar, you need to:
- do almost all work on the GPU
- share this work with DCS or SteamVR without copying from between main memory and GPU memory, or otherwise involving the CPU. In OpenKneeboard's case, DCS or SteamVR literally reads from the same GPU memory that OpenKneeboard writes to.

There are many libraries that make it easy to do everything on the GPU on MacOS, Windows, iOS, and Android - as long as you're immediately rendering to your application window.  Most of them do not provide a way to share that GPU buffer with another application. By far the easiest approach is to do everything with DirectX, which basically means it won't run on an Apple device.

There are more portable ways to do this - e.g. tell SteamVR "just load this image", but there are two major issues:
- it uses a lot of CPU and GPU resources
- SteamVR has a lot of... gotchas that either need working around, or work fine in small demos, but are completely unusable in the real world

For example, in my testing, if you tell SteamVR "render this image as an overlay" or "render this non-shared DirectX texture as an overlay":
- it leaks megabytes of memory every frame
- it simply stops working at all after somewhere after 200 frames. Round number, not a power of two, feels like an accidental arbitrary limit

On a more constructive note:

- several real-world general aviation pilots I know use ipad minis; have you looked at real aviation apps for DCS? I can imagine there's a reason they don't work well, or perhaps they're just outrageously expensive
- I'm considering embedding a webserver so you could use it in Safari. I'm not sure how well this will work for graphics tablet drawing.


Edited by actually_fred
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My projects:

OpenKneeboard - VR and non-VR kneeboard with optional support for drawing tablets; get help
HTCC - Quest hand tracking for DCS; get help

If you need help with these projects, please use their 'get help' links above; I'm not able to track support requests on these forums.

 

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Yeah those apps dont work because in VR you cant see the tiny buttons. So you can't control them blindly.

Ideally the VR iPad kneeboard would only allow swipe, zoom and draw. With the apple notes app there are too many tiny controls that you cant really find without looking at the iPad and where your finger is positioned.

How to sketch in Notes on iPhone and iPad | iMore


Edited by winghunter

DCS Web Editor - New 3D Mission Editor for DCS that runs in your browser

DCS Web Viewer free browser based mission planner / viewer

dcs web editor new(2).png
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@actually_fredSo I installed the OpenKneeboard, put the files in the /scripts/hooks folder as instructed and have the game listed in the games tab.

The app by itself works; I added a folder with pages and can browse these pages with the controlled bindings.

But I don't see the kneeboard appearing inside DCS in VR. Any way of troubleshooting this?

 

 

I fly an A-10C II in VR and post my DCS journey on Is your phone a YouTube Signature Device? - Gizmochina     |   Subscribe to my DCS A-10C channel   

Come check out the 132nd Virtual Wing                                   |   My 4090 VR Performance Optimization  
SYSTEM SPECS: Ryzen 7 5800X3D, RTX4090, Varjo Aero, VKB Gunfigher MKIII MCG Ultimate with 10cm extension,VPC MongoosT-50CM3 Throttle, VPC Control Panel #2, TM TPR Rudders. 64GB RAM, W10, Gametrix Jetseat, PointCTRL (currently broken), OpenKneeboard, Wacom Intuos.

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On 2/21/2022 at 4:24 PM, Ready said:

I use the kneeboard inside DCS (Vaicom Pro one at the moment) ...

 

Which is a really great implementation imo.  Knocked it out of the park actually.  I only really use vaicom pro for the tanker, the carrier and the kneepad, but it's worth the price of admission just for that.  And for Sarge, after we had a little talk about the "wheel socks."  Let's just call  it "training."  He got the message.  

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On 2/26/2022 at 5:22 PM, DeltaMike said:

Which is a really great implementation imo.  Knocked it out of the park actually.  I only really use vaicom pro for the tanker, the carrier and the kneepad, but it's worth the price of admission just for that.  And for Sarge, after we had a little talk about the "wheel socks."  Let's just call  it "training."  He got the message.  

I would like it if the Vaicom kneeboard would get tabs and had a way of controling those Pin/sticky notes through a command. 


Edited by Ready

I fly an A-10C II in VR and post my DCS journey on Is your phone a YouTube Signature Device? - Gizmochina     |   Subscribe to my DCS A-10C channel   

Come check out the 132nd Virtual Wing                                   |   My 4090 VR Performance Optimization  
SYSTEM SPECS: Ryzen 7 5800X3D, RTX4090, Varjo Aero, VKB Gunfigher MKIII MCG Ultimate with 10cm extension,VPC MongoosT-50CM3 Throttle, VPC Control Panel #2, TM TPR Rudders. 64GB RAM, W10, Gametrix Jetseat, PointCTRL (currently broken), OpenKneeboard, Wacom Intuos.

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Sorry, I'm not regularly active on the forums

> But I don't see the kneeboard appearing inside DCS in VR. Any way of troubleshooting this?

- SteamVR or oculus?
- One person reported that when they launched via skatezilla's launcher, it didn't work, until they deleted the path from the slot and re-added it. Does that work for you?
- How did you install DCS? Steam or standalone?
- Try removing DCS from the games tab, starting DCS, then re-adding it to the games tab by selecting the running process

My projects:

OpenKneeboard - VR and non-VR kneeboard with optional support for drawing tablets; get help
HTCC - Quest hand tracking for DCS; get help

If you need help with these projects, please use their 'get help' links above; I'm not able to track support requests on these forums.

 

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  • 2 weeks later...

Stumbled over this thread and will start to follow. I'm an enthusiastic VRK user, but that bit of software seems to stall and is no longer supported, which is a bummer.

The approach of the Open Kneeboard seems reasonable and I hope it will keep developing. Wonder why only the author works on it, from what I understand it was supposed to be a "community" project. I can't be the only one interested in a future proof VR-kneeboard, so I wonder why all those whiz kids not joining in (me, I'm happy to be able to turn a computer on, so no help)

 

After a first try I would like to see:

 

 

- Positioning of the Kneeboard via Setup (mine was on the floor of the plane...might have something to do with where the hmd is pointing during startup)

- Maybe left and right kneeboard like in VRK

- No / Little performance impact. VRK has huge problems in MP sessions (have to kill it sometimes and then being lost due to all my pages gone)

- Tablett support (huion) - did not check yet, because that would screw with the special drivers I need for VRK

- being able to use it without steam-vr , so maybe usable in MSFS

- being able to set tabs and stuff to find pages easy

- use of an calculator

- ...more stuff I will come up with later


Edited by Lt_Jaeger
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hello pilots

do you know if open kneeboard is compatible with openxr? i just moved from steamvr to openxr with my G2. unluckily i heard that vr kneeboard is not  compatible with openxr so i hope open kneeboard is.

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Wonder why only the author works on it, from what I understand it was supposed to be a "community" project.

Open source means that other people *can* contribute, or create their own version if I abandon it. There's no guarantee of it, and in my experience it takes a long time for a developer community to really form around any project.

Also, 
anything visible in-game needs to be written in C++ and is very directx-heavy. It's not the most approachable code.

> Positioning of the Kneeboard via Setup (mine was on the floor of the plane...might have something to do with where the hmd is pointing during startup)

Configurable in latest version, released today 🙂

> No / Little performance impact. VRK has huge problems in MP sessions (have to kill it sometimes and then being lost due to all my pages gone)

This is extremely important to me, but I don't have a G2. I am testing steamvr + quest 2, but it some problems here seem to be specific to the steamvr+wmr+G2 combo.

I've had a few reports of this on a G2 now, but the cause is narrowed down: OpenKneeboard effectively does 2 things with steamvr:

- tells it "draw this image at this rectangle in 3D space". If you're not drawing with a graphics tablet, this will only happen when you change page/tab - it can be 10s of minutes between OpenKneeboard doing this
- asks steamvr where you're looking to tell if it should magnify the kneeboard

Both of these are completely fine when using SteamVR + Oculus, so it seems likely to be a SteamVR/WMR/HP interaction.

Given I don't have the hardware, it's slow to narrow it down. In todays version, you can disable the gaze-based zoom, which disables all headtracking. If that fixes it for G2 users, let me know, then, I can try stuff like 'only check 4 times a second', or ultimately you can use a button binding to toggle zoom instead.

If disabling gaze zoom doesn't fix it, perhaps this new openxr approach is the way to go and won't have the same problems. No way to tell.

> Huion

Works with standard drivers -  there's a docs/huion.md which explains the setup, which isn't great. I've not tried the VRK drivers.

Tangent: my 2c: wacom have a more convenient size, better drivers and software, and the large recessed buttons are much easier to use when you've got a headset on. Actual drawing/writing with a pen, huion is more than enough. Huion of course has a *much* better price 🙂

> being able to set tabs and stuff to find pages easy

I hope this is there already 🙂 There's also support for PDF table-of-contents.

> Maybe left and right kneeboard like in VRK

I want to do this, I'm mostly trying to figure out the user experience. I don't want twice as many button bindings, two graphics tablets, etc.

I'm thinking maybe something like the A-10C 1 'swap MFCDs' function - or just a 'copy current page to left knee'.

> use of an calculator

Not yet, but I did design it with this in mind. Right now I'm thinking A-10C LASTE wind calculator, and a coordinate converter. Is there other stuff you'd like? Would a basic arithmetic calculator be useful?

When I get to this, I'm likely to try making it so it's doable with HTML+Javascript, or lua instead; I'm not sure if that will be practical with the rendering pipeline (essentially we need to periodically copy a GPU texture between applications) - but it would be much better than needing anyone else that wants to make a new calculator to learn C++ :)

> being able to use it without steam-vr , so maybe usable in MSFS

> OpenXR

Going to bundle these together:

if you have an oculus headset, steamvr is not required. You really don't want to know how this works.

OpenXR: planned because of MSFS, but previously low priority. I wanted to support MSFS *some day*, but I don't play it, so for now I'm pretty focused on DCS.

I only learned about the OpenComposite OpenXR thing today; if it turns out to be reliable and generally be wanted by G2 users playing DCS, that'll definitely make me rethink the priorities.

Also, want to highlight, the best way to request changes/features is to create an issue on github

For general discussions, either github discussions or the discord; I'm trying to remember to check in here, but it's not a place that I'm habitually active.

  • Like 4

My projects:

OpenKneeboard - VR and non-VR kneeboard with optional support for drawing tablets; get help
HTCC - Quest hand tracking for DCS; get help

If you need help with these projects, please use their 'get help' links above; I'm not able to track support requests on these forums.

 

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If you can implement Openxr support then that would excellent, I bought a cheap huion from eBay with the intention of setting up vrk and then the openxr mod happened 😄

Will keep following and happy to help out with some testing if needed (G2 running openxr but can switch back to steamvr at any time).

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7 hours ago, actually_fred said:

> being able to set tabs and stuff to find pages easy

I hope this is there already 🙂 There's also support for PDF table-of-contents.

Basically, I thought  bookmarks here.

7 hours ago, actually_fred said:

> use of an calculator

Not yet, but I did design it with this in mind. Right now I'm thinking A-10C LASTE wind calculator, and a coordinate converter. Is there other stuff you'd like? Would a basic arithmetic calculator be useful?

Yeah, a basic calculator. I use em for like max trap weight calculations, some basic fuel / timing calcs and stuff. Not so good at solving math in my head, so I need to rely on machines

 

7 hours ago, actually_fred said:

OpenXR: planned because of MSFS, but previously low priority. I wanted to support MSFS *some day*, but I don't play it, so for now I'm pretty focused on DCS.

I only learned about the OpenComposite OpenXR thing today; if it turns out to be reliable and generally be wanted by G2 users playing DCS, that'll definitely make me rethink the priorities.

to help me 😉

 

7 hours ago, actually_fred said:

> OpenXR

Going to bundle these together:

if you have an oculus headset, steamvr is not required. You really don't want to know how this works.

OpenXR: planned because of MSFS, but previously low priority. I wanted to support MSFS *some day*, but I don't play it, so for now I'm pretty focused on DCS.

I only learned about the OpenComposite OpenXR thing today; if it turns out to be reliable and generally be wanted by G2 users playing DCS, that'll definitely make me rethink the priorities.

That would be great. The lack of a decent kneeboard keeps me from using openXR during squad nights. If you could implement that, it will set you apart and open a can of worms for the MSFS crowd as well. Might get some help from this massive audience.

 

7 hours ago, actually_fred said:

Also, want to highlight, the best way to request changes/features is to create an issue on github

For general discussions, either github discussions or the discord; I'm trying to remember to check in here, but it's not a place that I'm habitually active.

Github is to complicated. I'm a old men who is still used to buy his software in boxes with big books and keyboard overlays 😉

 

What's your discord?

 

Looking forward to more developments of this. Thank you

 

 

 

Edit: It seems that I only can end the new version via task manager


Edited by Lt_Jaeger
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> Edit: It seems that I only can end the new version via task manager

😢 this was broken by a windows update that came out on Friday - I've reported this to microsoft at https://github.com/microsoft/microsoft-ui-xaml/issues/6859

I'll have a v0.2.2 out later today that works around this by going back to an old fashioned windows title bar.

> What's your discord?

https://discord.gg/QQhzk782EV

My projects:

OpenKneeboard - VR and non-VR kneeboard with optional support for drawing tablets; get help
HTCC - Quest hand tracking for DCS; get help

If you need help with these projects, please use their 'get help' links above; I'm not able to track support requests on these forums.

 

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On 3/20/2022 at 9:11 AM, edmuss said:

If you can implement Openxr support then that would excellent, I bought a cheap huion from eBay with the intention of setting up vrk and then the openxr mod happened 😄

Will keep following and happy to help out with some testing if needed (G2 running openxr but can switch back to steamvr at any time).

+1

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  • 1 month later...
  • Like 2

My projects:

OpenKneeboard - VR and non-VR kneeboard with optional support for drawing tablets; get help
HTCC - Quest hand tracking for DCS; get help

If you need help with these projects, please use their 'get help' links above; I'm not able to track support requests on these forums.

 

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