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Suggestion for a chargeable MiG21bis II upgrade


Rosebud47

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The intention for this suggestion is, to gather some feedback for Magnitude, if a chargable upgrade ( all the missing phases in the update process ) for the MiG would be accepted by the community.

The MiG21 plays a significant role in many DCS scenarios and is in constant use. Regarding its age and state-of-art, the need for an upgrade to be on par with all the upcoming new modules for which the MiG21 is a historical fit, is obvious.

Now circumstances, like the development of the F4U Corsair and other projects of Magnitude, made the planned phase 2 and further on updates for the MiG21 postponed. 
I wouldn´t hesitate to pay a fee for an overhaul update for the MiG, in a price range ED of A-10 II Tank Killer and Black Shark II ( III ).

Upgrading the technical outdated modules need to be a business case for the developer to keep the business alive.

The expectations for an update may vary, but what the MiG would need is an overhaul of the Cockpit textures, VR pilot body, maybe advanced damage model, new Cockpit meshes ( also with VR in mind ), overhauled keybindings and whatever comes to ones mind to make the MiG21 to a brand new module upgrade with MiG21bis II.

Maybe it´s unnecessary to come up with such suggestion as Magnitude is planning the updates anyway, but in my opinion, making it chargable is absolutely justified, when a developer puts more development time into renewing the module after all the years.

 

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I can still enjoy the MiG as it is but I get the sentiment. 

I dont think we know what the upgrade price of the BS will be do we?  The $10.00 A10 upgrade I would suspect was a no brainer for those who opted for it on release and on a hugely popular/long standing module. It added toys too. It not clear frm the OP what the price range being talked about it. I dont what the upgrade cost is now. 

A MiG upgrade wouldnt really add anything other than improvments and dependent on view more or less impartant fixes but thats fne by me.

Personally Id pay for a full new module if it met the standards of the recent releases but for a "plus" package Id still happily put down a decent proportion of that price. The MiG21 expereince isnt really something that, in mind mind at least, can be replaced with another module so yeah....take muh money!

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I'd pay for another Fishbed to be included, like an F-13, but I'm not paying for updates we should have. Besides, can we even accrue enough money to make an impact? It's more than just making money, there needs to be enough to justify additional time input.

Mag3 is a small team and they aren't full-time. This means longer dev times. It sucks, but unless they can find a way to go fulltime (assuming they desire to do so) then that's how it's going to be.

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Reformers hate him! This one weird trick found by a bush pilot will make gunfighter obsessed old farts angry at your multi-role carrier deck line up!

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@MiG21bisFishbedL Another MiG21 variant of another era included into a module upgrade would be fantastic. The approach of Heatblur, Magnitude and lastly Aerges ( F1 Mirage + variants )  by announcing more variants included in a full module purchase or adding Essex carrier, Forrestal or ground assets is mostly welcome and make DCS World a much more richer experience.

But honestly, while we did pay for maintaining each module by timely proper bugfixing, we did not pay for a technical module upgrade years ago to update to quality standards nowadays. If payable module upgrades ( including variants and additional assets ) would get more popular, the older modules won´t get lost through time and DCS would grow much faster and more consistent.  Totally agree with you, that it might be difficult to make, for small studios like Magnitude especially with the ongoing projects they already announced, to improve the MiG21 module; chances will be much more less to do so, if they would put time in it for nothing.

@Boosterdog The OP has trust in common sense, that the price range for a module upgrade is not mismatched with the price range for a new module.  


Edited by Rosebud47
corrected company´s name of Aerges
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F-14b Tomcat   /   AV-8B Harrier   /   F-16C Viper  /   KA-50 Black Shark   /   Mi-24 Hind   /   MiG-21bis   

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Charging you a few bucks won't allow them to hire the quantity and quality people, experts in the matter, they would need to commit such a task, nor would it magically make it happen for the next week. They know they have to update their module, they have said they will do it in due time. Hope with the modules incoming they are successful enough to enlarge their team at least a bit, or go full time as said previously. But there's not much more to it. A different variant, making it a complete new module, that would be different but I don't think M3 has the means to embark themselves in such a task right now.


Edited by Ala13_ManOWar

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Well, Eagle Dynamics is doing it now for the 2nd time for the Black Shark module. It´s not about optimism, pessimism, wishful thinking, immersion or stuff like this.
Developing a module and charging a few bucks for it is actually how the business works. I say: it´s a good thing to charge a few bucks for a module upgrade and should be done more frequently for the older-, as well for the older 3rd-party-modules. The thing is, that tasks without ROI will always be neglected in favor for new modules with ROI and once the ROI for those new modules is created, they will be neglected as well in favor for another new modules and so on and so on...

Edit: just to avoid subtleties, we´re talking about the really old modules, like MiG21, F-5 Tiger, Huey, etc.

 


Edited by Rosebud47
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If the upgrade included an additional earlier Mig-21 variant then it is worth half of a full model price. Mag3 need to break even with the upgrade vs. current module owners. The profit will come from sales of the module to DCS players who do not own it yet and into the future to new players, as the module will be up to the new standards.

“Mosquitoes fly, but flies don’t Mosquito” :pilotfly:

- Geoffrey de Havilland.

 

... well, he could have said it!

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1 hour ago, Bozon said:

If the upgrade included an additional earlier Mig-21 variant then it is worth half of a full model price.

Not intending to make any statement, but as a person intimately familiar with various MiG-21 variants, why do you think only half the price of full model would be justified (that would be 24.99 $)? 

If a version like MiG-21F-13 or PF or PFM or R or S was made, this would require a complete 3d model rework. Externally most of the model would have to be adjusted, if not remade from scratch, internally new model of cockpit would have to be created. Apart from artwork, systems programming would also be a work from scratch since many systems in older variants were either non-existent or different, starting with RP-21 radar. And finally new engine (based on either R-11 or R-13) and flight model.

There are some things common between the 21s such as ARK, SOD-57 or SRZO but if you compare PFM with bis, you will see a lot more differences.

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7 minutes ago, Hiromachi said:

Not intending to make any statement, but as a person intimately familiar with various MiG-21 variants, why do you think only half the price of full model would be justified (that would be 24.99 $)? 

If a version like MiG-21F-13 or PF or PFM or R or S was made, this would require a complete 3d model rework. Externally most of the model would have to be adjusted, if not remade from scratch, internally new model of cockpit would have to be created. Apart from artwork, systems programming would also be a work from scratch since many systems in older variants were either non-existent or different, starting with RP-21 radar. And finally new engine (based on either R-11 or R-13) and flight model.

There are some things common between the 21s such as ARK, SOD-57 or SRZO but if you compare PFM with bis, you will see a lot more differences.

Sounds like a hell of an undertaking. Also sounds like it'd be infeasible as an "add on."

Reformers hate him! This one weird trick found by a bush pilot will make gunfighter obsessed old farts angry at your multi-role carrier deck line up!

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22 minutes ago, MiG21bisFishbedL said:

Also sounds like it'd be infeasible as an "add on."

Something like MF, SM or SMT could be and "add on", but different generation 21 should be a separate module. 

I mean, compare this:

246044148_4458982434163306_1154260562121317235_n.jpg

with this

92222f5f6528b73b7d33d4a3e3f73f94.jpg


Edited by Hiromachi
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@Hiromachi thank you for listening!  Personally I don´t care about 20,- $ more or less; it´s like a decision one time within 8 years to eat a salad at home instead of going to McDonald´s and order a large happy meal. Finding the right price to justify the work which has gone into it, is up to Magnitude.

After years of learning and getting used to fly the MiG21bis, an all over quality upgrade would be like a gift from heaven! @MiG21bisFishbedL surely is more an expert for variants, but a variant of the MiG21bis with some advanced modifications and a reference to real life would be in line with the upgrades for the A-10 and Ka-50.

Mission builders and server admins then would have the option, if the original MiG21bis or a version with modernized capabilities would fit in the scenarios.

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3 hours ago, Hiromachi said:

Not intending to make any statement, but as a person intimately familiar with various MiG-21 variants, why do you think only half the price of full model would be justified (that would be 24.99 $)? 

If a version like MiG-21F-13 or PF or PFM or R or S was made, this would require a complete 3d model rework. Externally most of the model would have to be adjusted, if not remade from scratch, internally new model of cockpit would have to be created. Apart from artwork, systems programming would also be a work from scratch since many systems in older variants were either non-existent or different, starting with RP-21 radar. And finally new engine (based on either R-11 or R-13) and flight model.

There are some things common between the 21s such as ARK, SOD-57 or SRZO but if you compare PFM with bis, you will see a lot more differences.

True, the amount of work to create a new variant will depend on which. What is behind what I wrote is that I don’t know if an upgrade package will sell very well by itself- if giving current owners another variant that is not too dissimilar from Bis is not too much work, then this could be an incentive for them to purchase the upgrade, and this would still be less than making a full module from scratch (I hope).

If Mag3 makes a full stand alone module for an earlier Mig21 I would be interested and likely buy it, but I am not sure I can say the same about an upgrade to the current Bis.

“Mosquitoes fly, but flies don’t Mosquito” :pilotfly:

- Geoffrey de Havilland.

 

... well, he could have said it!

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8 hours ago, Hiromachi said:

Something like MF, SM or SMT could be and "add on"

 

 

Give us the FAT bed. I must know the slowest MiG-21 intimately! 
 

6 hours ago, Rosebud47 said:

@Hiromachi thank you for listening!  Personally I don´t care about 20,- $ more or less; it´s like a decision one time within 8 years to eat a salad at home instead of going to McDonald´s and order a large happy meal. Finding the right price to justify the work which has gone into it, is up to Magnitude.

After years of learning and getting used to fly the MiG21bis, an all over quality upgrade would be like a gift from heaven! @MiG21bisFishbedL surely is more an expert for variants, but a variant of the MiG21bis with some advanced modifications and a reference to real life would be in line with the upgrades for the A-10 and Ka-50.

Mission builders and server admins then would have the option, if the original MiG21bis or a version with modernized capabilities would fit in the scenarios.

Truth be told, I'd go with what Hiromachi has to say on the topic. I do know a *lot* about the MiG-21s. A whole lot. Hiro does, too, but he also hails from Poland (Correct me if I'm wrong, @Hiromachi) and that simple geographic proximity to actual MiG-21 operators of the past and even present counts for a whole lot. I've got a MiG-21bis POH in my library. He has access to a lot more physical literature than I do.

Reformers hate him! This one weird trick found by a bush pilot will make gunfighter obsessed old farts angry at your multi-role carrier deck line up!

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8 hours ago, Hiromachi said:

Something like MF, SM or SMT could be and "add on", but different generation 21 should be a separate module. 

I mean, compare this:

246044148_4458982434163306_1154260562121317235_n.jpg

with this

92222f5f6528b73b7d33d4a3e3f73f94.jpg

 

an SMT or MF variant would be so cool. . . a lot of fun and regarding the SMT a historical correct "real" nuke capability!! 

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What do you mean by historical correct real nuke capability? As if Bis is ahistorical? 

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SMT is certainly an interesting variant. There is one left in Germany, near Leipzig and Im intending to visit it this summer. If anything, just to see the ... hump 🙂 But if I had anything to say, I would prefer to have MiG-21PF and MiG-21S. Those are two most interesting variants for me.

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45 minutes ago, Hiromachi said:

SMT is certainly an interesting variant. There is one left in Germany, near Leipzig and Im intending to visit it this summer. If anything, just to see the ... hump 🙂 But if I had anything to say, I would prefer to have MiG-21PF and MiG-21S. Those are two most interesting variants for me.

this is an absoluetly great and historical place to be with an amazing mass of infomation. you can smell the cold war back 40 years ago when you will be there! you can also fidn a Su 22M-4 in very good conditions there. . . 😉 

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There's a museum in Rothenburg / Oberlausitz, right at a former GDR air force base, where you can find (and sit in) almost every plane of the former GDR air force... be it a MiG, a Su or even an L-39... just as a hint @Hiromachi. On topic: I would even pay the full price again if the update of the BIS would represent the aircraft as it was in real life (ARK functionality with inner and outer beacons, RSBN functionality, correct button assignments etc.) If these things cannot be made historically correct, then I also don't need another MiG-21 such as the F-13.

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Mancher zum Meister sich erklärt, dem nie das Handwerk ward gelehrt!

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I know, Flugplatzmuseum Rothenburg I believe its called. Its on my list. Eastern Germany still holds a decent collection of Soviet birds. Another one is Flugplatzmuseum Neuhardenberg, which is unique in that it has nearly untouched MiG-21bis SAU and MiG-21F-13. Unfortunately they arent particularly responsive when contacted 😕 

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difficult times. but please let me know when i can support you and your amazing projects, as a cold war kid grown up nearby a soviet airbase in eastern germany i am still located in berlin and area and it is maybe helpful to assist as a local. feel free! 🙂

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