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Suggestion for a chargeable MiG21bis II upgrade


Rosebud47

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11 hours ago, Dragon1-1 said:

I think they were actually better dogfighters than the Bis, though more limited in weapon choice.

They were lighter, for sure, making them more agile. But I've seen a wide range of comments about them. Anywhere from stating that F-13 was the only 21 that could dogfight in the vertical even without the afterburner, or that PF was like a sports car to very opposite comments. You get less weight, but also less power since R-11 engine does not deliver nearly as much thrust as R-25 in bis. 

As for the weapons ... F-13 certainly. But PF, PFM and M could use also R-13M missiles. And DDR MiG-21PF and PFM (called SPS and SPS-K) were provided in the 1980s (by 1982 I believe) with R-60 capability. Real problem is that you cant carry as many missiles as bis. And you have to make a choice - either fuel tank or gunpod, in case of PF 🙂 

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Less weight would help offset the power deficiency, and they were also somewhat more aerodynamic, so perhaps they wouldn't bleed too much speed. Missile number isn't much of an issue since they didn't have the gas for prolonged fighting, anyway. 🙂 That said, I'd take the F-13 if I had to choose, since the PF doesn't have an internal gun, and the gunpod is draggy.

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F-13 would be a nice bird to have, but it would be hard to fully enjoy it - it is short range, good weather only, no radar beyond rangefinding, cannon with 60 rounds and so on. PFM on the other hand would be tricky without an internal gun. I mean gunpod is there with 200 rounds, but there is a price to pay in drag. That being said, I would love to have earlier 21, with its all quirks and limitations, whatever the version. Personally, the earlier, the better. 😄 

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Drag? Weight? Sky is the limit 🙂 

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My vote would be on a PF, PFM, or F-13, so basically a non-starter given the work aforementioned. 

That said, I'd take any Fishbed. Any. Fishbed. Even the FATbed that is the SMT. We can put it on a low carb diet.

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Reformers hate him! This one weird trick found by a bush pilot will make gunfighter obsessed old farts angry at your multi-role carrier deck line up!

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I believe that every module needs, from time to time, a paid update. Otherwise the older modules, although formally compatible with dcs world, risk being abandoned: by the players who already own them, replaced by newer modules, and by the players who have not yet purchased them and who are not encouraged to do it, considering them old. If we want an ever-expanding environment and not new modules replacing the old ones, we need to find a sustainable way to keep up with the older modules. Paying every now and then to do it is in my opinion the safest way.

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A new, updated cockpit would be nice, but it could be hard to swing just that as justification for an additional purchase. Additional capabilities? We already have more than what the -21bis had. I suppose if we had an SMT or similar second gen -21, it might be, but that's still a lot of work for a new cockpit, too.

Reformers hate him! This one weird trick found by a bush pilot will make gunfighter obsessed old farts angry at your multi-role carrier deck line up!

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Edit In:  I think I went off on a tangent...

As for the current cockpit, It wasn't me who modeled it in the first place.  Laszlo Becz had modeled it long before photogrammetry or laser scanning was popular and/or cheaper.
Cobra modeled the ejection seat harness and parachute "cushion", and maybe a few other items.  Cobra worked with what he had in such a tight time frame since he and myself were just hired.
I did model the new ASP and Windscreen though. ))

Any artist in the industry knows what a pain it is to jump into a project created by someone else and at this point, it's more time saving just to redo everything.

To be honest, a paid update on an entirely new 3D mesh, textures and even programming wouldn't be out of line, asking to pay for it.  The royalties would certainly help hiring more people, scanning services, and acquiring documents.

Also, updating just the cockpit textures on the current cockpit, would be a free update, but why waste time on it, when we'll eventually develop an all new one?  It truly is a hassle for me.

The cockpit shape is relatively simple.  But I really want it to be more accurate than what we have now.  I'd rather have laser scans, but photogrammetry works just as well under the right conditions.  It does cost money to take on such an endeavor though.  To completely make a new mesh of the external and cockpit to a high degree of detail would sure take some time, but at least the aircraft is simple in design and wouldn't take long. My only downfall, is I am wheelchair bound, so I really rely on others to get the resources I need.  Otherwise, I'd be out in the field getting scans, pics, etc myself.  Because I know exactly what I need and how to do it.

Please be patient guys.  We're just about out of our hole after the split and g00d things will be coming for sure.

 

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47 minutes ago, -Rudel- said:

We're just about out of our hole after the split and g00d things will be coming for sure.

I have ... ehm... zero doubts about that. You're such a tease Mr -Rudel- ;).

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On 2/4/2022 at 11:41 PM, flanker1 said:

a tribute to your amazing mig-21bis modul. . . . 2 mig-21bis of the 16va in eastern germany altenburg-nobitz anno 1983. 

Screen_220205_003829.png

Screen_220205_003757.png

That is a very skillful and tasteful scenario. I see the VPC mods but may I ask what modes you used for the revetments and other items?

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I would definitely pay for a Fishbed overhaul! Not just because of the art issues, but I would also love to see the ASP fixed, which still offers the fake CCIP mode among other issues.

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35 minutes ago, QuiGon said:

I would definitely pay for a Fishbed overhaul! Not just because of the art issues, but I would also love to see the ASP fixed, which still offers the fake CCIP mode among other issues.

This.

To update and clean the old code and get rid of all the inaccuracies.

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@-Rudel- The MiG21bis has got a solid fanbase in DCS you definitely could count on! Also, I would say, the module has got a very important role in the entire DCS line up, which will get more important and demanded, when the F-4, A-7 and more cold-war-era-jets are out in the wild. Asking for a high fidelity upgrade for the MiG21bis to be on par qualitywise with the upcoming new modules is a more rhetorical than serious question.

While DCS pilots are used to be patient, I really would wish you could manage such task in a schedule right after the F4U-Corsair and before the completion of the F-8, as Magnitude originally planned with the updates for the MiG21 cockpit. Better wait a little bit longer, but having then an entirely paid full-upgrade instead of some updates in the cockpit here and there. 

 

 

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3 hours ago, Boosterdog said:

That is a very skillful and tasteful scenario. I see the VPC mods but may I ask what modes you used for the revetments and other items?

the only "new" thing is the shelter - you can find them in the depths of your dcs installation, don´t know why ED has this "backup" - maybe for a new map or scenario? all otherr is vpc and this amazing sam assets mod, with slightly changed textures by myself. 

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5 hours ago, Rosebud47 said:

Better wait a little bit longer, but having then an entirely paid full-upgrade instead of some updates in the cockpit here and there. 

Absolutely. As much fun as the MiG-21 is, there's more than just artwork that needs an overhaul. Some things have been mentioned here already, and there is more. Don't waste too much time in trying to fix the old code or improve it superficially for no financial return, better invest the time to do it all nice and clean from scratch in accordance with current standards. I'll happily pay for a version 2 of that magnificient plane that has been a backbone of DCS for so long.


Edited by Pilot Ike
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What about doing a modernized version of the Mig21BiS? Something like the Mig21 Lancer, that's still flying in Romania? Or do you feel that too few people would be interested in purchasing said module?

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43 minutes ago, Pilot Ike said:

Absolutely. As much fun as the MiG-21 is, there's more than just artwork that needs an overhaul. Some things have been mentioned here already, and there is more. Don't waste too much time in trying to fix the old code or improve it superficially for no financial return, better invest the time to do it all nice and clean from scratch in accordance with current standards. I'll happily pay for a version 2 of that magnificient plane that has been a backbone of DCS for so long.

 

THIS!

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I'd certainly be willing to pay for an update to the MiG-21, though for me, I share the sentiment of a few others in that getting some systems behaving more realistically is very important, particularly the ASP and several others.

Though of course a cockpit update would be very welcome.


Edited by Northstar98
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I would also be willing to pay for an update. Would welcome it as an increase in value if a GCI AI would komnen.
In any case, an overhaul is desirable.

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3 hours ago, Gladius said:

I would also be willing to pay for an update. Would welcome it as an increase in value if a GCI AI would komnen.
In any case, an overhaul is desirable.

GCI would easily make it worth it. I'd hurl money at that. There's an idea though:

@Hiromachi Ever consider the possibility of updating the bis with the Lazur variant? Being able to play with the Lazur would be pretty cool.


Edited by MiG21bisFishbedL

Reformers hate him! This one weird trick found by a bush pilot will make gunfighter obsessed old farts angry at your multi-role carrier deck line up!

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