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Suggestion for a chargeable MiG21bis II upgrade


Rosebud47

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I still don't understand why F-13 is so popular 🙂

I meanit looks great. Probably best looking 21 with its sleek silhouette but it's capabilities leave a lot to be desired. 

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37 minutes ago, Hiromachi said:

I still don't understand why F-13 is so popular 🙂

I meanit looks great. Probably best looking 21 with its sleek silhouette but it's capabilities leave a lot to be desired. 

It's period correct for the much desired Vietnam match up. I find it fascinating because of its lacking capabilities, actually.


Edited by MiG21bisFishbedL
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40 minutes ago, MiG21bisFishbedL said:

It's period correct for the much desired Vietnam match up. I find it fascinating because of its lacking capabilities, actually.

 

So would be PF, PFM and M. I think F-13 is simply associated with Vietnam because of Have Doughnut.

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2 minutes ago, Hiromachi said:

So would be PF, PFM and M. I think F-13 is simply associated with Vietnam because of Have Doughnut.

True. I'd take any of these. Doesn't matter much, because i'd be happy with a Bis cockpit/systems overhaul alone. The whole another variant thing is not as necessary i think. People just want to see the Mig on par with recent modules, especially in VR

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vor einer Stunde schrieb Zar 1-1:

True. I'd take any of these. Doesn't matter much, because i'd be happy with a Bis cockpit/systems overhaul alone. The whole another variant thing is not as necessary i think. People just want to see the Mig on par with recent modules, especially in VR

Totally true. Actually another variant is not so much of interest as the MiG21bis. Moreover a variant, which really differentiate from the 21bis, makes things difficult, time- and costeffective - that´s not what initially was asking for.  Better keep distance from the variation idea to keep things in a feasable frame. Also a Su-22 as a separate full fidelity module would be a better complement to the MiG21bis than another less capable MiG21.  


Edited by Rosebud47
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F-14b Tomcat   /   AV-8B Harrier   /   F-16C Viper  /   KA-50 Black Shark   /   Mi-24 Hind   /   MiG-21bis   

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Am 11.2.2022 um 05:26 schrieb -Rudel-:

Edit In:  I think I went off on a tangent...

As for the current cockpit, It wasn't me who modeled it in the first place.  Laszlo Becz had modeled it long before photogrammetry or laser scanning was popular and/or cheaper.
Cobra modeled the ejection seat harness and parachute "cushion", and maybe a few other items.  Cobra worked with what he had in such a tight time frame since he and myself were just hired.
I did model the new ASP and Windscreen though. ))

Any artist in the industry knows what a pain it is to jump into a project created by someone else and at this point, it's more time saving just to redo everything.

To be honest, a paid update on an entirely new 3D mesh, textures and even programming wouldn't be out of line, asking to pay for it.  The royalties would certainly help hiring more people, scanning services, and acquiring documents.

Also, updating just the cockpit textures on the current cockpit, would be a free update, but why waste time on it, when we'll eventually develop an all new one?  It truly is a hassle for me.

The cockpit shape is relatively simple.  But I really want it to be more accurate than what we have now.  I'd rather have laser scans, but photogrammetry works just as well under the right conditions.  It does cost money to take on such an endeavor though.  To completely make a new mesh of the external and cockpit to a high degree of detail would sure take some time, but at least the aircraft is simple in design and wouldn't take long. My only downfall, is I am wheelchair bound, so I really rely on others to get the resources I need.  Otherwise, I'd be out in the field getting scans, pics, etc myself.  Because I know exactly what I need and how to do it.

Please be patient guys.  We're just about out of our hole after the split and g00d things will be coming for sure.

 

Well, then I would say its after the release of the F4 time for the payed Mig 21 II update 😉

Its such a greate and historic plane and it would be greate if we had a module that matches visually and in terms of simulation.


Edited by Germane
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13 hours ago, Hiromachi said:

So would be PF, PFM and M. I think F-13 is simply associated with Vietnam because of Have Doughnut.

True. Though, I wasn't aware the VPAF had M's in addition to their F-13s, PFs, and PFMs. The aesthetic point factors in as stated before. F-13s are pretty.


Edited by MiG21bisFishbedL
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On 2/15/2022 at 9:47 AM, Hiromachi said:

So would be PF, PFM and M. I think F-13 is simply associated with Vietnam because of Have Doughnut.

Who said we don't want all those variants as well? 🤣  Still, F-13 is a good looking aircraft, kind of the "original MiG-21", you can tell the difference aesthetically, somewhat the same but not quite yet. As all pre-SPS variants apparently it was challenging (and the Bis we know is already challenging, so… 😁). I don't know, F-13 has some appeal to it. I remember the YT interview with a Finish pilot who flew both of them and he said clearly he preferred F-13 over Bis by far, overall same performance, but lighter and more manoeuvrable. Since in Vietnam, so mentioned for this variant, F-13 wasn't the latest or more modern variant yet I think it was still competitive, and it had a canon! Why not F-13? Could be lots of fun and fits many historical places for all kind of missions in the sim. Of course maybe from a developer's point of view other variants could be more interesting since many parts could probably be re-used from variant to variant (PF, PFS, PFM, or M, S, SM, MF, Bis, please not horribly ugly SMT), but well, we users can dream, right? 😇


Edited by Ala13_ManOWar
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15 hours ago, Hiromachi said:

I still don't understand why F-13 is so popular 🙂

I meanit looks great. Probably best looking 21 with its sleek silhouette but it's capabilities leave a lot to be desired. 

Well, it was first variant produced in large numbers, exported and licensed. When comparing to other DCS modules - sure, it is basic. Instead compare it to what was used in 1960, when F-13 was introduced. In that context it is more clear why F-13 made its mark in aviation history. To be perfectly honest, F-13, while less capable, was probably more on par with its counterparts in 1960, that the most advanced 21bis in 1972. 🙂 

On more personal and subjective note - I don't like "latest variant" policy. More or most developed plane of the family doesn't have to be always most representative or impactful for the type. And examples are many in DCS. 


Edited by Fairey Gannet
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9 hours ago, Fairey Gannet said:

On more personal and subjective note - I don't like "latest variant" policy. More or most developed plane of the family doesn't have to be always most representative or impactful for the type. And examples are many in DCS. 

I agree with that although its sometimes simple a matter of latest being most documented one. Its easier to find materials for most recent version that was in service few years before rather than to a version that was in use 30-40 years before. Poland for example had very brief history with MiG-21F-13 and aircraft after few years was phased out in favor of newly acquired PFs, and in large numbers PFMs and Ms. And based on this I can tell you that its not hard to find documentation for variants such as M or bis, but it poses real problem when you try to find manuals for F-13 🙂 

I always for more unique aircraft. But I'm generally weird and I like things like F4D Skyray, F-86K Sabre Dog, F-104. So I personally would look for a lesser known version of MiG-21, unique in something. F-13 is popular but in many ways still unique, however it would not be at the top of my list of MiG-21 variants 🙂 

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5 hours ago, Hiromachi said:

I agree with that although its sometimes simple a matter of latest being most documented one. Its easier to find materials for most recent version that was in service few years before rather than to a version that was in use 30-40 years before. Poland for example had very brief history with MiG-21F-13 and aircraft after few years was phased out in favor of newly acquired PFs, and in large numbers PFMs and Ms. And based on this I can tell you that its not hard to find documentation for variants such as M or bis, but it poses real problem when you try to find manuals for F-13 🙂 

I always for more unique aircraft. But I'm generally weird and I like things like F4D Skyray, F-86K Sabre Dog, F-104. So I personally would look for a lesser known version of MiG-21, unique in something. F-13 is popular but in many ways still unique, however it would not be at the top of my list of MiG-21 variants 🙂 

Yes, I left out documentation availability matter on purpouse here, as it is a limiting factor for every module during creation. 🙂

I love unique an quirky airplanes too, as name suggests. Problem is, we don't have many modules, so if you will introduce something like that into DCS, it not only will not be unique anymore, but it will become new benchmark and (most likely) sole type representation. I guess more crazy modules could be introduced when we have basics covered - but then we both will be long dead! 😄 Besides, 21bis is actually pretty interesting case in that regard, choosing late variant doesn't really hurt. I would like to see some earlier iterations, though, no matter what the type, really. Can be 1st or 2nd 21 generation, something to represent enormous lifespan of the aircraft.

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Yeah I also would love to have one (or more) of these over engineered pieces of 50s optimism (although I wouldn't count the F-104 in that list). The Skyray, Sea Vixen, Javelin, Yak-28 Brewer/Firebar, those sorts of aircraft.

But yeah I think what makes the F-13 stand out is its simplicity. Fishbeds after that all get some type of radar and all-weather equipment so in a way they get fairly close to what the bis can do, while the F-13 is still a pure daytime fighter (and is supposedly the best Mig-21 at that, minus the modern J7s/bisons/Lancers). In my mind that also makes it sufficiently different from the Mig-19P, which in a way is like a later Fishbed but worse overall.

I think in general there is quite a lot of scope in DCS to deal with variants or sub-variants that is only being explored now between the A-10CII, Mirage F1, Phantom, and Tomcat. If especially the Phantom releases work out well, I can see other 3rd parties going that way.


Edited by TLTeo
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8 hours ago, Hiromachi said:

I always for more unique aircraft. But I'm generally weird and I like things like F4D Skyray, F-86K Sabre Dog, F-104. So I personally would look for a lesser known version of MiG-21, unique in something. F-13 is popular but in many ways still unique, however it would not be at the top of my list of MiG-21 variants 🙂 

As said, I believe customers wouldn't say no to other variants as well, but from what I read (here in this very same thread, but other places, víds, books, etc) I recall a PF, for instance, would be less interesting (two missiles, fancy but useless radar, no multi-purpose, no gun… 🤔) than F-13 itself. Anyway, I would take any of those, also a PF. Good easily available info on PFM and M you say? Good!! Take my money and shut up 🤣.

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It's not that bad actually. PF and PFM limitations were noticed and somewhat addressed during their lifetime. Poland developed twin pylons for R-3S missiles, Soviets started manufacturing GP-9 gunpods ...

As for air to ground, you still get H-66 Groms. 

12063584_999922396697097_2883662511255390937_n.jpg

MiG-21PF 843.jpg

But everyone has his own preferences. 


Edited by Hiromachi
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On 2/15/2022 at 2:45 AM, Hiromachi said:

I still don't understand why F-13 is so popular 🙂

I meanit looks great. Probably best looking 21 with its sleek silhouette but it's capabilities leave a lot to be desired. 

Thats just it... Its sexy as hell! For me, I dont care about the reduced performance. I enjoy using what strengths an aircraft has to its maximum advantage. I am sure most feel the same way. After all, f it was just about performance we would all be flying the Hornet. 

Back to the OP, I would glad pay an "upgrade fee" up to the original models price. The MiG-21 has been my fav module since its release. Its just got so much character! Easy to fly, hard to fly well & a joy in every phase of flight. 

FWIW I would by an F-13 module in a hearbteat as well 🙂

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7 hours ago, Fairey Gannet said:

Besides, 21bis is actually pretty interesting case in that regard, choosing late variant doesn't really hurt.

I think the -bis was the best choice of all available variants to bring into DCS as a first MiG-21 - still a classic MiG-21, but capable enough for late Cold War, a good variety of a2a and a2g ordinance, sufficiently multi-role employable, and used by quite a lot of air forces around the globe. So before anything else a MiG-21bis 2.0 should be the primary goal to aim for.

With the upcoming early F-4E I do see a reasonable demand for an earlier North Vietnam AF MiG-21 variant as an independent module though.

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I for one would like a two seater or a ground attack oriented one. Modern mig 21 upgrades somewhat address this with laser guided munitions and targeting pods as well as expanded air to air load outs including on some models some of the missiles a mig 29 can carry.

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Getting one of the updated Fishbeds would absolutely, positively sick. That said, it'd require new radar modeling as airframes like the MiG-21-93 and Bison use a much more modern radar and I'd imagine that's quite a bit of work. Using the 21-93 as an example, I'm not sure information about the Kopyo radar set is all that forthcoming. The Lancers use the EL/M-2032 and that has uses on many airframes, so those particular operators might be hesitant to share. @Hiromachican correct me if I'm wrong, and please do, but I'd suspect this may call for almost as much work as making a first gen MiG-21. At least with the powerplant, the 21-93 uses the same powerplant as the bis.

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It would call for far more. F-13 has even less avionics than bis, while a LanceR or Bison has entire modern avionics systems with MFDs, which blow out development time enormously (just look at how long the gen 4 stuff takes to reach "full release" compared to older aircraft). They also still have enough external differences to require substantial art work.

On 2/16/2022 at 9:07 AM, MiG21bisFishbedL said:

True. Though, I wasn't aware the VPAF had M's in addition to their F-13s, PFs, and PFMs. The aesthetic point factors in as stated before. F-13s are pretty.

 

MF arrived there in... 1970, from memory? There are some photos/videos of them right at the end of the war, from the Vietnamese side.


Edited by rossmum
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On 2/17/2022 at 7:50 PM, MiG21bisFishbedL said:

Getting one of the updated Fishbeds would absolutely, positively sick. 

 

If this is possible, it would somewhat alleviate the fact that there are no modern RedFor planes in the pipeline for DCS World. I would love to see an upgraded variant of the Mig21 in any way shape or form. It's a proven airframe, but imagine one with a pulse doppler radar, the ability to carry the R27 or the R77. And yes. They do exist! 

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7 hours ago, Lurker said:

 

If this is possible, it would somewhat alleviate the fact that there are no modern RedFor planes in the pipeline for DCS World. I would love to see an upgraded variant of the Mig21 in any way shape or form. It's a proven airframe, but imagine one with a pulse doppler radar, the ability to carry the R27 or the R77. And yes. They do exist! 

That depends on your definition of RedFor.

The Fishbed that slings BVR weapons was only procured in number by the Indian Air Force as the Bison. It's not exactly a Red Air threat.
The LanceRs and BisD's are NATO birds.

That said, it still would give us a pretty neat match up of JF-17 vs. MiG-21 Bison in an Indo-Pakistani engagement. I can't find any resources which indicate what the Indians have in their missile inventory, but I know they'd definitely be using R-73s instead of R-3s or R-13s with the added bonus of an HMD, so that alone would be wicked cool.

But, from my perspective as a Fishbed-Fanatic? The MiG-21's popularity and longevity has elevated it to an almost international status; its flown for what we'd call blufor, for redfor, and for everyone in between.

Reformers hate him! This one weird trick found by a bush pilot will make gunfighter obsessed old farts angry at your multi-role carrier deck line up!

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